Yeah, I'm a Coward.

Sonneillon · Mar 24, 2008

I have yet to post anything except nitpicky editing of other people's work in the SYW forum. I've admitted in public that this is because I am terrified that someone will say "you suck, put the pen down and back away from the computer", even though I know the polite people at AW would never do that. They would say it to me without saying it, with such phrases as, "your story seems to lack a cohesive plot and I had trouble caring about the characters". Not that I think that's the case, but.... still. Sonne's animal-brain is paranoid and extremely thin-skinned about criticism.

So my dad forwards my first four chapters to a fellow named Rich, who writes sci-fi and has about four books published. He sent me an e-mail titled "your first four chapters".

I can't open it.

I look at it and my stomach turns over. I can't. What if it sucks? What if I suck? What if the amazing, articulately glowing reviews I've gotten before are really worthless and people in The Industry will really know that I'm stupid and laugh about how I can't write and I'm silly for even submitting anything?

Above all, if I can't handle this, how in the world am I ever going to submit the finished monster to agents?

:e2thud:

bluntforcetrauma · Mar 24, 2008

Just do it. There'll be your answer. Otherwise you'll never know. Remember- he's gonnas be nice.

Sonneillon · Mar 24, 2008

And I feel dumb, because it was much less hurty than I thought it would be.

However, thank you for that, Blunt.

lfraser · Mar 24, 2008

You'll have to post some of your work in SYW sometime, you know. The first time is the hardest. After that, once you realise people are trying to help and won't rip your head off, you look forward to hearing what people have to say.

The first time I posted a short story for critiques I didn't sleep for a week until the crits came out. Like you I was expecting to be told quite firmly that I did not belong on a writer's site and should take up knitting, or golf. Instead I got some wonderful feedback -- good and bad but all of it helpful -- most of the critters felt my story was pretty good, and a couple of people even said I had talent. Scary stuff, eh?

geardrops · Mar 24, 2008

Peer Pressure saves the day!

:heart:

Mumut · Mar 24, 2008

You've got to read it so you can get on with your writing.

sheadakota · Mar 25, 2008

Think of it this way- what if he tells you that you don't suck?

Phaeal · Mar 25, 2008

Show your work to appropriate audiences, like the folks at SYW. When it's ready, show it to agents and editors. Along the way, develop a thick skin and work your butt off to improve by reading, writing, rewriting, reading and studying some more, rewriting, critiquing other peoples' work, rewriting. Then rewrite some more. Oh, and keep submitting. Make crits and rejections badges honoring your courage in reaching out, not lashes on your tender hide.

That's the way we all have to do it.

Riley · Mar 25, 2008

I did something like that, twice. Both times I've found the critique to be completely honest, but put in a very sensitive way so my feelings weren't hurt (or at least they weren't supposed to be. Whether they were or not is for a different post). Most people are pretty good about being nice about your work, except for one guy I got critiqued by who simply called my work "piss". Sore? No I'm not sore over it. BRING THE BUTTHURT!

So, what's your genre? If you post in the Science Fiction and Fantasy SYW, I'll probably critique you. I'm not a meanie, though I do try to be honest. SYW isn't too bad. At least I haven't gotten any critiques that hurt (one or two that made me think along the lines of "bzuh?" but nothing bad).

It's cool that you got a critique from another writer. Sometimes they're the best people to get feedback from. (Next in line would be an agent who decided to take you as a client, next best would be an editor who decided to pitch your work to the Head Honcho.)

HourglassMemory · Mar 25, 2008

Open it.
A critique is not an insult! It's help being given to you! It's a person giving their honest, reader opinion. It only sound heartless because it's written.
It has value.

When you read it, if you find that it's going down the road you dislike, just imagine it being read by a really nice girl, who makes a face with her eyebrows together, but in a saddened way, and that she's being really honest and that she really wants to help you.

...Even if it's a guy who wrote it, lol.

Also, tell us if it was an opitmistic critique or a "mean" critique.

Sonneillon · Mar 25, 2008

The critique, deleting the personal bits about what he's been doing with his time:

... I have read the chapters in a critical light and find while interesting development in plot is building what hits me the most is wordiness. The sentences, some of them, could be more direct with fewer words. One time you began a sentence with 'So" - there were others that make it appear you are involved as the story moves along. For some reason that appears to weaken the structure to me. Perhaps your narration is not strong enough (needs more character herself/himself to be who she/he is). Perhaps the characters need to speak more directly themselves where you listen and write their words, not your own. You do have good word choice and good descriptive passages.

As your work is a draft, that may be the problem in itself. You have to have something down on paper first, and the writer puts it there however she/he can. The next draft can be sparser while at the same time clearer. That's how I see it presently. Keep at it, and if you would like to send me more I am willing to read. My own critical readers tell me I lose them along the way. At least you don't do that. Good luck, and good writing! Rich

I found it a little confusing because what it sounds like is "your narrative voice is too strong and this makes your narration weak". Which may also translate to "you write like you talk", which I've been told before, but everyone else seems to think it's a positive thing. I understand the wordiness bit, which is something to edit after the draft is completely finished. All in all, I'm not sure WHAT to think, but I'll keep his opinion in mind when I go back and edit.

Thanks, everyone, for the peer pressure and the textual hand-holding.

Soccer Mom · Mar 25, 2008

He's saying that he's not getting a sense of who your character is through your narration. Is your novel in first person or 3rd?

Maryn · Mar 25, 2008

I seem to spend far too much time (while I'm recovering from a particularly nasty sinus infection) helping writers at another site I visit shorten and tighten their work. I can usually trim by 25 - 35%, sometimes even by a full half.

This amuses me, because writing 'fat' is among my faults as a writer. I have to go over my own work over and over, paring it down.

Allow me to throw down the virtual gauntlet: I challenge you to post one ordinary paragraph here, preferably one that's not dialogue, since I can't know your character's voice. Just one paragraph. Tomorrow I will find time to rewrite it using fewer words, and that may give you some notion of one way to deal with wordiness.

I acknowledge right up front I'm not nearly as talented as many people here, but I've got more time than they do, so there!

Meantime, though, congratulations on your courage. Opening the email wasn't easy, but you did it!

Maryn, proud of you

jclarkdawe · Mar 25, 2008

Sonneillon said:
The critique, deleting the personal bits about what he's been doing with his time:

... I have read the chapters in a critical light and find while interesting development in plot is building what hits me the most is wordiness. The sentences, some of them, could be more direct with fewer words. One time you began a sentence with 'So" - there were others that make it appear you are involved as the story moves along. This seems like you understand it.

For some reason that appears to weaken the structure to me. Perhaps your narration is not strong enough (needs more character herself/himself to be who she/he is). Perhaps the characters need to speak more directly themselves where you listen and write their words, not your own. You do have good word choice and good descriptive passages. This section seems to be where you confusion arises. It's always fun trying to figure out what someone is saying. And it's interesting how writers have difficulty writing clearly.

I think what he might be saying here is that your voice is overwhelming your characters' voices.

As your work is a draft, that may be the problem in itself. You have to have something down on paper first, and the writer puts it there however she/he can. The next draft can be sparser while at the same time clearer. That's how I see it presently. Keep at it, and if you would like to send me more I am willing to read. My own critical readers tell me I lose them along the way. At least you don't do that. Good luck, and good writing! Rich When you get a response like this from a writer, you've done something right.

I found it a little confusing because what it sounds like is "your narrative voice is too strong and this makes your narration weak". Which may also translate to "you write like you talk", which I've been told before, but everyone else seems to think it's a positive thing. I understand the wordiness bit, which is something to edit after the draft is completely finished. All in all, I'm not sure WHAT to think, but I'll keep his opinion in mind when I go back and edit.

Thanks, everyone, for the peer pressure and the textual hand-holding.

I don't know if I'm reading this right. That would be my guess, but that's all it is, just a guess. You might ask him for to clarify this point.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

Sonneillon · Mar 25, 2008

jclarkdawe said:
I don't know if I'm reading this right. That would be my guess, but that's all it is, just a guess. You might ask him for to clarify this point.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

You're right. Edit done. I got the impression they weren't a big deal, but none the less.

Maryn said:
I seem to spend far too much time (while I'm recovering from a particularly nasty sinus infection) helping writers at another site I visit shorten and tighten their work. I can usually trim by 25 - 35%, sometimes even by a full half.

This amuses me, because writing 'fat' is among my faults as a writer. I have to go over my own work over and over, paring it down.

Allow me to throw down the virtual gauntlet: I challenge you to post one ordinary paragraph here, preferably one that's not dialogue, since I can't know your character's voice. Just one paragraph. Tomorrow I will find time to rewrite it using fewer words, and that may give you some notion of one way to deal with wordiness.
(clip)

Maryn, proud of you

See, I'm tempted to cheat on that by searching through my WIP for the best possible paragraph I can find. Instead, I'll search backward from the end and just pick one without dialogue. I had a lot of trouble finding my groove in the first few chapters, and I think that may have shown... it's something I'll have to exhaustively fix when I edit the full draft and I have a chance to look at it as a whole. This is from chapter seven.

Dark, blistered bands around his ankle showed where its fingers had touched him, and black streaks meandered up his leg following the paths of his veins. There was a rotten smell emanating from the flesh. He started to say something about it, but was suddenly overtaken by stabbing pain in his ribs and the gurgling of foul ice water in his lung. He tried to cough it away, but the drowning sensation only intensified. His stomach spasmed and he retched, choking as his throat fluttered and threatened to close, coming dangerously close to losing his mind entirely when his vision began to fuzz. His fingers dug into the sand as he tried to speak and only managed to gag.

steveg144 · Mar 26, 2008

Above all, if I can't handle this, how in the world am I ever going to submit the finished monster to agents?

Exactly. Do you seriously want to make a go of this writing thing? Then get used to rejection. A good day for me is zero rejections in the mail. A normal day is one rejection. A really bad day, the worst I've had so far, was five rejections in the mail, all on the same day.

It's like relationships: if you don't put yourself in a position to be rejected, you'll never get hurt but you'll never have any relationships either. Life is short, and a lot of the time it hurts, and a lot of the time people are mean. But it's all you get, so don't waste it. Get your work out there!

HeronW · Mar 26, 2008

We've good people here--they critique the story NOT the writer--that happens in Office Party or Games--I've had my beak taped shut 2x :} People will let you know what they feel works. It's valid, folks here want to help. It's like trying a new recipe--you're not going to know if it's meant for public consumption unless you let some friends snack on it--then it's add salt, cut the margarine and put in more chocolate--and you're the next Mrs Fields!

timewaster · Mar 26, 2008

lfraser said:
You'll have to post some of your work in SYW sometime, you know. The first time is the hardest. After that, once you realise people are trying to help and won't rip your head off, you look forward to hearing what people have to say.

You don't though, do you? It isn't necessary to do that. You can be a writer and never show your work to anyone before submitting it. It is OK to do that. If the work isn't very good you are unlikley to get useful feedback form the submission process, but it is possible to be a writer and never to use any form of crit group.

Maryn · Mar 26, 2008

Morning. FWIW, I think your writing is rich, but I agree that it's pretty generous with how many words it uses to get the ideas across. I think you can still keep it downright lush while lowering your word count.

Tips I've learned to trim my own:

Seek and delete adverbs; do without, or find a better verb that doesn't need shoring up.
Eliminate words that show hesitation, like started, tried, began. Just cut right to the action.
Rephrase There was or it was sentences unless you can't. Those get to stay.
Each concept, each visual, gets only one descriptor. While I liked the phrasing of the black streaks meandering up the guy's leg, that they follow the paths of his veins says the same thing, so I just picked one.
Use active voice unless there's a valid reason for passive. It's not just better writing, but fewer words, too.

Your original paragraph was 119 words. Here's a one-pass rewrite. It could certainly be made better, perhaps shorter, with a second pass (or by somebody better!), but you get the idea.

Its fingers left dark, blistered bands around his ankle, and black streaks followed the veins’ paths up his leg. A rotten smell emanated from the flesh. Stabbing pain in his ribs and foul ice water gurgling in his lungs pre-empted his attempt to speak. Coughing only intensified the drowning sensation. He retched, his throat fluttering, threatening to close, and nearly lost his mind when his vision blurred. His fingers dug into the sand as he tried to speak but could only gag.

That's 82 words, and not very different considering it's a 31% reduction. Is anything missing that really ought to be restored? Your call.

Maryn, hoping this helped a little

Sonneillon · Mar 26, 2008

Thanks for that, Maryn. I'll keep those pointers in mind.

dreamsofnever · Mar 26, 2008

Sonneillon, I just wanted to say kudos to you for opening that email! One of the scariest things I did in my writing was to show someone. I started by showing my husband (then just my boyfriend) and he gave me great feedback. Then I came on here and after soaking up a lot of knowledge, I posted a godawful first draft of my prologue. (which after much rewriting and much feedback, I've now deleted all together)

Anyways, it was really scary putting my stuff out there for people to see. And it was tough to read those first critiques, even though the critiquers were very nice.

But in the end, every piece of feedback I get is like a little bit of gold. It helps me to improve my writing.

And the more you do it, the less scary it gets. As for this one review, remember that each critique is just one person's opinion. He may be right about the strong narrative voice, or he may not. You should try to to distance yourself from the story and read it yourself to see how it comes across and see if you can find the things he's pointed out.

Timewaster, I really do believe that the best way to improve is to get feedback on your work. You can definitely try the submission process by being the only person editing it, but it's tough to be completely impartial with your work. And a lot of times other writers can just bring in a different perspective, which usually helps a lot.

Anyways, Sonneillon, just wanted to say again, congrats on having the courage to open the email! Though I thrive on feedback, I still get a little pang of panic when I see an email from someone who is reading my work or see new comments in threads I've started in SYW.

Just Jack · Mar 26, 2008

I wouldnt worry about it too much, you can only come out of this as a stronger person...

Don't sweat it, and calm down.

Wouldnt want you to have a heart attack before you get published now would we?

lfraser · Mar 27, 2008

timewaster said:
You don't though, do you? It isn't necessary to do that. You can be a writer and never show your work to anyone before submitting it. It is OK to do that. If the work isn't very good you are unlikley to get useful feedback form the submission process, but it is possible to be a writer and never to use any form of crit group.

Strictly speaking, no, you don't ever have to post on SYW. My comment was a friendly nudge rather than a pronouncement from on high.

Writing can be a lonely and discouraging endeavour, and there's a lot of support to be had here on AW for the asking. Part of that is getting feedback.

Yeah, I'm a Coward.

Autophobic Misanthrope

Esquire

Autophobic Misanthrope

Bored and Frantic

Good thing I like my day job

Well begun is half done...

part of the human equation

Whatever I did, I didn't do it.

They won't let me be good

Autophobic Misanthrope

Crypto-fascist

Baaa!

Feeling lucky, Query?

Autophobic Misanthrope

Crusty Polemicist

Down Under Fan

present

Baaa!

Autophobic Misanthrope

King of Procrastination

Bored and Frantic