What is more important the writing or the selling?

For me, it's two completely different things. I write, the fictional stuff at least, for myself. I write myself into a corner a lot, but it's the only way I can do it and stay motivated. I know many excellent, successful writers who always write with $$ on their mind, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. But there's nothing wrong for doing it for the art, either. Most people I know balance it out.


There's nothing like that very first paycheck. And there's nothing like getting bigger ones each time, either. But I still prefer the "moving mountains" feeling you're talking about, and that has nothing to do with getting paid and/or published.

You became a writer the moment you wrote something.

I agree with Navigator. It's really subjective. I am a writer, and have been for a long time. I haven't been a professional writer for very long, though. The money is satisfying, yes, but I'd still be writing, money or not.

Melina

I write for readers. I feel most happy when they actually pay to read, but I also gained a lot of satisfaction from unpaid small press publication -- especially when readers email to say how much they enjoyed the piece.

As an unpublished writer, a label I appended to myself about a year ago after I quit working to write full time, I have the same feelings you do, d2f; in fact I probably have them every day. Am I just spinning my wheels? Do I really have something to say that's worth writing down? Will anyone fork over their hard-earned money for one of my books? Will Batman and Robin escape the giant clam? No...wait...sorry, I lost my train of thought.

But I keep plugging along, regardless. Ideally, I'd like to think that if you love to write, you never have to sell a thing for satisfaction; I know people just like this. If you are writing because you feel you have something important or interesting to say, you're in for a ride, I think, and satisfaction will only come when someone says "Hey, you gotta read this guy's book!" If your're writing to make money because you're good at it, other less-successful writers might envy you, but to you, its probably just a job. Of course, in reality, all of us as writers probably have a little of all these guys in us, so I would think everyone has these feelings once and a while.

Good post, made me think!

Rob

In the best light, selling and writing have a symbiotic relationship. But I think that means that within yourself, you have to have that kind of relationship with the fact that you need to both sell and write. Of course, you don't need to be selling and writing simultaneously at any one moment, and every piece you write will come into being for different reasons - for yourself, for someone else, for some purpose. I don't think there's a right or wrong way to view the purpose, so long as you can make peace with your choice of writing or selling for that purpose.


When it comes to a column I write, I agree with Veinglory: I'm writing for the readers. It feels great to get emails that say, I read this and I had to pass it on. But not all writing is meant to do that. Sometimes I write only for myself. I start new works all the time. If I learn that there's a market interested in that type of disclosure or discussion or treatment of an issue, I may query or submit the work. But it started out as being for me.

I think, for me, the key thing is to believe in what you're pursuing. You may find external support for your work (from loved ones etc.) but if you don't believe in the value and the need to put words on paper, whatever the project is, then chances are that will show in what you do produce.

Good luck. There are no easy answers but, as with raising kids, the rewards really satisfy.

I think what you have to understand is that this isn't really about the writing or the selling.

Is one a person who needs approval from others to justify their pursuits and behaviours, or one who approves themselves in their own internal courtroom?

Perhaps we are all professional until proven amateur?

Don't worry so much about whether you are a great writer, be satisfied that you are at least a potentially great writer. And do you know what that needs? directed effort, desire to improve, and persistent practice.

After all, if you don't have sugar and egg-white you won't make meringue.

We all have the right to write, right?

I think we all start with the notion that it's the writing that's most important. But if you want to twin the words "writing" and "career" you can't avoid assigning equal importance to the selling. The publishing world isn't going to rifle through your desk drawers, your hard drive, or the shoebox under your bed while you're sleeping in order to discover you.

Sooner or later you need to put the words out there; usually again and again and again, seemingly ad infinitum, until the cheques start arriving or you decide "Oh heck. It's the writing that's important anyway" and you quit sending.

It's definitely something only the individual can decide. I send out my weekly column free. Initially I rebelled at the idea but now I'm very happy I was cajoled into it. I get terrific feedback and have made lots of new friends.

Oh, and I've tweaked a few and sold them. And I do believe I'll compile a bunch into a book eventually.

I love writing. I've done it since I was very young and wrote my first SF "novel" when I was about 15 or 16. It's still kicking around the house somewhere and the core story is pretty good. I haven't read it in over 20 years, but I'm pretty sure the writing sucks big time.

When I finished "Angels Among Us" and sent it to a friend of mine now living in England to read and critique for me, a writing friend introduced me to Opendiary.com and I started keeping a fantasy journal there--the rough draft of a novel I had misplaced in a move. I continued writing by the seat of my pants after I ran out of pages to transcribe and have continued there for five years. Some of my readers there are very loyal and I really enjoy the feedback. If I make money (more than the little I've made from "Angels" royalties), that's great, but I love to write stories and to hear back what people got from them. Ego boost, I guess.

Torin

I don't write just to write. But then again, I didn't origionally write expecting to be published. At first that wasn't an objective. But I had an audience in mind that I intended to share my story with.

I write to share my thoughts. Generally, I'm not much of a journal-er. I've written in a number of venues, I've just never tried writing in one for pay yet. This is the first time.

If I'm deluded about my talent, and no agent or publisher is interested (I'm hoping this is not the case) then I will find a way to get my story out. Whether that means self-publishing, (I'm not keen on hawking books, and in fact it probably wouldn't be worth it for me) or more likely, I'd create a website with links to my story, I'll share it.

Why? I think I have something important to say and interesting to say. I write for the same reason I speak, to be heard. Yes, I like the creative process. But for me, I wouldn't be worried about countless re-writes and changes and corrections if I didn't think it was worthy of publishing. This goes way beyond "fun" for me. It's grueling work at times.

Heck, I'd just make it a series on "Share your work" thread. Those who write to write are different. Yeah, I love to write stories, and to some degree it's fun, but I'm just a social animal. I want to share these things. (Published or not)

When I chose writing as a career, I expected to make money. Plain and simple. The day I stop making money, I guess I'll have to start looking for an alternate career. Because while I'll still be writing, it will be as a hobby and not for money.

That's what each individual needs to decide for him/herself. If you're viewing writing as a career choice, are you happy being on the bottom rung and making no money? I know I'm not, which is why in order for writing to keep its professional charm, it needs to bring in at least a decent amount of income each month. Otherwise, to me, it's just a hobby. And I suspect that's the case with many writers, which is why so many writers opt for non-fiction over fiction.

And so when you ask what's more important, I say money. Because I'm viewing it as a profession. If/when writing becomes a hobby to me, the money factor won't be there. Then the writing will be the most important.

This is my personal opinion though. So don't bash me up if you don't agree.

I promise not to bash, because I like you so much, Mridu. But I definitely would love to have a polite and well-informed debate! How bout it?

mommie4a said:

I promise not to bash, because I like you so much, Mridu. But I definitely would love to have a polite and well-informed debate! How bout it?

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You're on!

Round 1

I come at the issue of labeling writing as profession versus as a hobby from a very different perspective.

Do I write to make money? No. Do I therefore write as a hobby? No.

I know others may say that I'm in denial and indeed it is a hobby if I don't write to make money. But I think that that is a very defeating position to all writers and it simply doesn't apply to me (and I'm sure some others) because no career choice I've ever made prioritized money. That's just me, and always has been. (My father's constant nagging of me during various periods of my life about why couldn't I pick the better paying (but less satisfying) jobs, attests to this. Example: he always asked me, why did I have to take non-paying, fellowship funded internships at legal aid offices instead of taking the $2000/week NYC large law firm jobs.)

I recognize the place to which my perspective often gets relegated by fulltime, career writers (unintentionally or intentionally, and with or without malice) and so I do struggle - when I'm mingling in the writing community - with feeling like a lower caste of a writer. Knowing you're in India, I don't say that lightly.

I'm on deadline today and am posting this as a diversion for a moment, but I guess the crux is this: I'm dedicated, I'm hardworking, I'm published - so there are editors who want to publish and pay for what I have to say the way I say it. To label my efforts as a hobby, because the income isn't the top priority for me in my endeavors, feels - with all due respect - a little insulting.

On the flip side, I mean NO insult ever to fulltime, career writers - I don't think they have to feel demeaned if a someone they heretofore viewed as a hobbyist likes to feel that he or she is writing just as seriously. I know I'm not a fulltime professional and I never represent myself as such. I just don't like or feel that the label hobby applies to me, or a large group of us out there.

I'd love to hear from others in my situation (less than 40 hours/week, not primary source of income for household writers) to get a sense of whether they consider it just a hobby, or a gradual ramping up of their efforts to become fulltime or "more" professional - meaning, in this discussion, money being the priority.

NOW - all that being said, Mridu - if I've misunderstood what you wrote (and that's the limitation of this one-dimensional technology), I want to be set straight. I'm also very cool with agreeing to disagree.

I think for me, I've worked so hard to feel like and be a legitimate writer. Having what I do and the time I dedicate to it viewed as a hobby - it feels like a setback. Maybe I'm wrong - I'd love to hear more on this!

Thanks!

For me writing is a PASSION My degree is in the visual arts, and I taught high school art for a number of years. Sold my paintings in "art in the park" style venues, galleries etc. etc. But, it always troubled me that my fellow artists seemed to be so much more devoted to their art than I was. I was in it for the money. I'd pack up all my paintings in the back of my van, display them for a weekend and come back with an empty van, and often enough pre-orders for my work to keep me busy for half a year! But like I said, my interest in what I was doing didn't seem to match the other artists I knew. It seemed if they couldn't get into their studios to paint for a day or two they would become unglued. I DIDN'T get that! I didn't care if I went for days, even sometimes weeks without working in my study.


Then, in the midst of raising three small children, doing my artwork became nearly impossible. So just to keep my creative spirit alive, I enrolled in an evening workshop for creative writing, and it changed my life! Now I can't imagine going a day without writing, and I don't make a penny doing it, and I don't care. I feel blessed to have discovered something that I can be passionate about.

So what I'm getting at is there's one more piece to this puzzling question, that you are all overlooking. Some writer's, or for that matter artists in general, write because it's a hobby . . . some because it's the way they aspire to make a living, but DON'T forget . . . SOME of us write because we can't imagine what our lives would be like if we didn't.

Anyone else feel PASSIONATE about writing?

JAlpha

Without question - that's how I started. The first work I ever submitted to a contest was called "Passion Junkie" and was about why I write. (I got 8th place and some editors' meetings at a writer's conference for the effort.)

But this goes back to the fact that everything I pursue (with the exception of some of my household chores) I pursue because of passion or desire or interest or intrigue. For me, why else would you do anything? (I'm excluding the obligatory tasks in life that keep you going from day to day.) It frustrates the heck out of my husband, who, thank God, and by no strange twist of fate, does everything for $$. Lucky me, he's pretty good at that.

mommie4a said:

It frustrates the heck out of my husband, who, thank God, and by no strange twist of fate, does everything for $$. Lucky me, he's pretty good at that.

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DITTO!

I don't need no stinkin' diamonds or pearls. My husband knows the surest way to win my heart (and other various body parts), is to give me my time to write!

I feel a mutal sisterhood forming here, do we "get" each other or what?????

JAlpha

JAlpha said:

My husband knows the surest way to win my heart (and other various body parts), is to give me my time to write!

I feel a mutal sisterhood forming here, do we "get" each other or what?????

JAlpha

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You da bomb! Ugh - I have to finish this profile and STOP checking in here!

determined,

I've said it in different threads and I'll repeat it here.
I love to write. Writing is all I've ever wanted to do. If anything I write helps someone in someway, that's worth more to me than money. I won't say that the money and byline isn't wonderful, but my true payment is knowing someone may have taken some good from what I wrote.

Joanne

jdkiggins said:

determined,

I've said it in different threads and I'll repeat it here.
I love to write. Writing is all I've ever wanted to do. If anything I write helps someone in someway, that's worth more to me than money. I won't say that the money and byline isn't wonderful, but my true payment is knowing someone may have taken some good from what I wrote.

Joanne

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For myself, I cannot say it better than that. (so why did I write that long thing a few posts ago? Joanne - you wanna ghostwrite my posts??)

No, Jill. You did just fine.

KitKat said:

And so when you ask what's more important, I say money. Because I'm viewing it as a profession. If/when writing becomes a hobby to me, the money factor won't be there. Then the writing will be the most important.

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I lean towards Mridu's camp, but I see the merit in saying that writing seriously shouldn't be classified as a hobby (even if doesn't generate a dime)...how's that for taking a stand!

I love to write, and always have. Back before email, I'd write really long letters to friends and family. Fully illustrated with colored pencil drawings. And five years ago, I started a quarterly newsletter "all about me" that is still going strong. It originally started as a forum for my personal essays and travel stories, and I sent it to a few friends and family. Now, it goes out to over 100 people and includes essays by me AND my friends and family. I love it.

It takes a lot of time and effort to put out that publication (my PageMaker, Photoshop, photography, writing skills, and now, editor, skills get a work out every three months).

But I digress. The point is, I love to write and I've always considered myself a writer. Since getting laid off eight months ago, however, I've come to see myself as a Freelance Writer. That's a career. It's a career I love, but if I don't make cash at it and have to get another 9-5 job that often sucks the creative juice out me, I'll go back to being a happy and fulfilled writer.

Hmm, I wonder if this conversation is like one of those debate club things. I suspect that if we narrowly defined the terms, we might all agree!

I see some very good points made by everyone here, and while I do think that this is like the many discussions where writers in two camps agree to never agree, I think we can all learn from each other's way of thinking. So here goes...

mommie4a said:

Do I write to make money? No. Do I therefore write as a hobby? No. I know others may say that I'm in denial and indeed it is a hobby if I don't write to make money. But I think that that is a very defeating position to all writers and it simply doesn't apply to me (and I'm sure some others) because no career choice I've ever made prioritized money.

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Jill, you're saying this because you're taking it to mean that I'm viewing a hobby as something demeaning or not good. I'm not. As an example, I love teaching. Sometimes, I'll take my young cousins and teach them English or Math and I don't get compensated for it. It's fun. I could do it every day. But is it my profession? Nope. For the simple reason that (1) I'm not making any money doing it and (2) I'm not pursuing it with any kind of goal in mind. I do it when I feel like doing it and when I don't feel like teaching, I don't. If I take up teaching in a school, then it's a career choice.

Writing on the other hand, is my profession. I love writing. That's why I've made it my profession. But since it is my profession, it needs to bring in the income. That's why I'll negotiate for higher fees, take up projects I have absolutely no interest in, and write even when I don't feel like writing. That's why I have to meet a deadline. And it's also why I query first. If I were doing it for the passion, I'd write something and then, if I felt like it, try to sell it. But me and a lot of other writers don't do that. We first sell and then write. And if an editor offered to pay me $2 a word for an article on monkey reproduction, I'd chuck my non-interest in the subject and get to know everything about the damn monkeys. A person who isn't writing for the money would say, "Thanks, but no thanks."

mommie4a said:

I recognize the place to which my perspective often gets relegated by fulltime, career writers (unintentionally or intentionally, and with or without malice) and so I do struggle - when I'm mingling in the writing community - with feeling like a lower caste of a writer. Knowing you're in India, I don't say that lightly.

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As I said, I don't think either of the choices is a good thing or a bad thing. I'm just saying it's a choice. Either you write for the money or you write for the love of the writing. If you get to do both, good for you.

It's funny you say that, actually, because I feel the same way around most writers. Many writers don't write for the money actually, so when I say money is my primary motivation, they look at me strange. It's like the whole to-write-or-not-to-write-for-free debate. You're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't.

mommie4a said:

I'm dedicated, I'm hardworking, I'm published - so there are editors who want to publish and pay for what I have to say the way I say it. To label my efforts as a hobby, because the income isn't the top priority for me in my endeavors, feels - with all due respect - a little insulting.

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That's because you have a different view of "hobby" than I do. Maybe hobby isn't the right word. I'm just viewing hobby as something that's not bringing in income but is something I like to do. Or something that does bring in a nice check from time to time, but it's something that I'm not doing for a profit motive. That's the important thing here. When you're operating for a "profit motive," you're in it for the money. But if you'd do it regardless, it's not.

Luckily, we have the option of striking a balance. Most of my work is for money, but there are some essays that I would have written whether or not they ever got printed.

In my opinion, the issue is not how serious you are about your writing, but what your motivation is. My motivation is money. If I don't make enough, I'll continue writing in my spare time, but I'll get another job. If I do make a decent income, I'm one of the lucky few who can use their passion to further their career.

mommie4a said:

I think for me, I've worked so hard to feel like and be a legitimate writer.

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But Jill, that's exactly what I mean-- just because you're doing something for a hobby (someone please find a better word), doesn't mean you're not a legitimate writer. Every writer is a legitimate writer, regardless of how much they earn.

JAlpha said:

but DON'T forget . . . SOME of us write because we can't imagine what our lives would be like if we didn't.

Anyone else feel PASSIONATE about writing?

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Hey, I'm passionate about writing, too! That's exactly why I'm not in some corporate job programming my butt off. I have a degree in Information Technology, but I'm a full-time writer. You don't give up a high-paying job and take a risk with full-time freelancing unless you have passion! We just take it to the next level and call it our career.

mommie4a said:

It frustrates the heck out of my husband, who, thank God, and by no strange twist of fate, does everything for $$. Lucky me, he's pretty good at that.

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I'm quite like your husband, Jill!

RoseReifsnyder said:

I lean towards Mridu's camp, but I see the merit in saying that writing seriously shouldn't be classified as a hobby (even if doesn't generate a dime)...how's that for taking a stand!

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Okay, I'll agree to that. But what do you call them then? Not everyone is (or wants to be) a professional writer.

RoseReifsnyder said:

The point is, I love to write and I've always considered myself a writer. Since getting laid off eight months ago, however, I've come to see myself as a Freelance Writer. That's a career. It's a career I love, but if I don't make cash at it and have to get another 9-5 job that often sucks the creative juice out me, I'll go back to being a happy and fulfilled writer.

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Yes, yes, yes! Maybe I should erase everything else I've said so far and just leave this up.

Mridu,

I think you've presented an excellent point-counterpoint and frankly, the post alone should be submitted to some writing market as is, just to demonstrate the variety of points to be made on both sides.

Yes, hobby is not quite the right word but, at least in the US, it often describes a leisure activity with the pursuit of money irrelevant. There is no way on earth I would call my writing a leisure activity - it gives me great pleasure the way some leisure activities might, and I do it in my leisure time as well as my I'm getting paid now time. But writing is a more serious endeavor for me than the word hobby connotes, and I do want it to pay, absolutely.

I think my situation exists in the grey field because there's no expectation that I should be making a lot of money, yet anyway. Again, I will say that I have a very hard-working, ambitious, generous and successful enough husband with whom I've prioritized the family over and above all else right now. That will not always be the case. THEN...watch out.

Thanks for the thread, Mridu. You are always a pleasure to read and learn from. As a relative newcomer to writing, I thank goodness you want to do it for the money, because I get to benefit from all your good stuff.

Jill