What's a "Mary Sue" character? (aka Marty Stu, Gary Stu)

I think you are on the right track. If you Googl (as I did a couplle of weeks ago) Mary Sue and some other information like "fictional character" you should get some hits. I even found a pop quiz to guess whether your characters are Mary Sue's. I blush to admit they had some tendencies towards that.

I also Googled on "romance tropes" b/c that's what interested me and got some interesting results.

Hope that helped ...
Ann

A Mary Sue can appear a lot in fan fic. It is basically a character based on the author, but based on an idealised version of the author. So the MC always gets the girl, is witty and brilliant. If the author has issues with their appearance let's say, the Mary Sue would as well, but would also be able to overcome it and get to date the hottest kid at school etc.

A Mary Sue often has no flaws, and acts as fantasy fulfillment for the author.

There is nothing wrong with an author doing this if they really want to. The problem is that often the character is quite uninteresting to the reader, and usually unrealistic, making the story weak and unreadable.

And with this, I wonder, can one base a character off of himself and have him not come off as a Mary Sue? If so, how?

With a brutal honesty. I've got a character--not the main character--who is largely based on me. She has my annoying habits and personality traits. Her sister can't stand her. She has an inflated opinion of her own intelligence. Yeah, it's me, and it's distinctly not Mary Sue-ish.

Fanatic Rat said:

And with this, I wonder, can one base a character off of himself and have him not come off as a Mary Sue? If so, how?

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Toothpaste said it well. A Mary Sue can also be a character based on what the author wishes they were like. Or based on the author, but without a realistic self-aware view of the author's flaws/shortcomings.

Usually Mary Sues are accompanied with long drawn-out descriptions of their omg!sospeshul!looks. A lot of Mary Sues I've seen have deep plum-colored orbs, hair that is blonde with naturally bright red streaks, or whatever. And they usually have special powers and usually everyone loves them. (except sometimes the main male character, who starts out hating them but then falls in love with them)

There are Mary Sue litmus tests out there. If you google that, you'll find the test.

but really the big thing is to just make your characters three dimensional. Give them flaws, give them ordinary hair color and features. (sometimes. it's okay to have your character have a distinctive feature too! just within reason)

Most of all, don't substitute purple prose descriptions of your character for moving the plot forward.

Just create a character who is not perfect and not loved by all and use your word count for plot-crucial developments instead of describing the characters beautiful features, etc.

If you want a really good place to see Mary Sues in action, www.livejournal.com/users/pottersues is a really great place. They are Harry Potter sues, but it still gives you an idea of the characteristics and poor writing that demonstrate a Sue.

Again, for context, from Wikipedia and verified through other sources (and adding to Derek's post):

Mary Sue, sometimes shortened simply to Sue, is a pejorative term used to describe a fictional character who plays a major role in the plot on such a scale that suspension of disbelief fails due to the character's traits, skills and abilities being tenuously or inadequately justified. The concept is particularly characterised by overly idealized and clichéd mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as wish-fulfillment fantasies for their authors. Mary Sues can be either male or female, but male characters are often dubbed "Gary Stu", "Marty Stu", or similar names.

While the label "Mary Sue" itself originates from a parody of this type of character, most characters labeled "Mary Sues" by readers are not intended by authors as such. Another definition of Mary-Sue is a character who is too perfect to be true, i. e. one with too many positive character traits compared to actual character flaws, or being remarkably attractive in comparison to the other characters.

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FunkyBunny said:

Examples and description needed please!

I thought it was when a writer put themselves in the story, as a love interest - mostly in FanFic.

Or is it when your hero is so Mary Poppinsish (practically perfect in every way) that they're just annoying? Like - her worst trait is that she bakes cookies and cleans when she's nervous.

I guess I'm just confused.

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Mary Sue(Or Gary Stu for males) Are perfect characters, who are there just for the author's wish-fufillment. Totally poor characterization. They are like all-perfect, no flaws or weaknesses, they are nothing like natural people.

Examples of Mary Sue from other Media.

-Kim Possible
-Harry Potter
-

I had more characters in mind but I forgot unfortunatly.

I think you should go here!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue

Fanatic Rat said:

And with this, I wonder, can one base a character off of himself and have him not come off as a Mary Sue? If so, how?

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I did that. I get angry easily, so I gave this personality trait to a male character, along with some other parts of my personality. He doesn't look good (he is bald, not very tall and his face isn't very attractive, either), beats his servant and yells at people. However, he is in a position which allows him to behave as he does.

My only reader seems to like him in spite of all this, and never complained about Mary-Sue tendencies. (I posted the story in a forum and haven't yet found out if the others do not like the MC or don't read the story out of other reasons.)

I never knew what a Mary Sue was either.

But it proves the maxim: A good writer can pull off anything.

Fanatic Rat said:

And with this, I wonder, can one base a character off of himself and have him not come off as a Mary Sue? If so, how?

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That's what every author does with all of their characters. It's okay for them to put a little bit of themselves in them, to a certain degreee. This is sort of where the "wish-fufillment" comes in. The author fantasizes himself as the President of the United States because he wishes he was the president.THAT'S a Mary-Sue. When you read books with MarySue's it should be obvious to you that it is.

I've got a character based on me, well kinda ( yes, I too have walloped someone with a poker). But she has her flaws. I hope....Maybe I should give her some better nastier ones.

Ah, the good ol' days of fan fic, back in the misty depths of time. I remember the original Mary Sue story, back in the ancient days of Star Trek fic. And a merry ol' Sue she was too.

Basically, the original problem with Mary Sue was that she wasn't so much a wish fulfillment character or that she was the author-in-the-story. It was that she could out-command Kirk (and people listened), she could out-logic Spock, she could out-smartcrack and out-doctor McCoy, she could out-engineer and out-drink Scotty, etc, etc, etc, ad nauseum.

What was wrong with her was that she stole the thunder of the story from the established canon heroes that most fans read for. Not that she was wish-fulfillment, but that she just de-characterized everyone else in the story. Pissed a lot of people off, which is why, more than 30 years later, people still remember the character's name as derogatory.

Now, that's what she started off as in the 70's. Apparently the term is now used for castigate any character that someone thinks is a little too powerful, a little too sexy, a little too whatever.

Personally, if Harry Potter and Anita Blake and such are Mary Sues, I'd take a look at what they've done for their authors' careers and take note--there must be something RIGHT going on there, wouldn't you think?

dreamsofnever said:

There are Mary Sue litmus tests out there. If you google that, you'll find the test.

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But how good are these tests really? I sent my least Sue-like character through 2 of those tests. One said he had Sue-like tendancies; the other said he was the Anti-sue.

dreamsofnever said:

There are Mary Sue litmus tests out there. If you google that, you'll find the test.

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Heh, true but some tests are pretty useless IMO. You probably really don't need the test if your characters have any psychological flaws.

dreamsofnever said:

but really the big thing is to just make your characters three dimensional. Give them flaws, give them ordinary hair color and features. (sometimes. it's okay to have your character have a distinctive feature too! just within reason)

Most of all, don't substitute purple prose descriptions of your character for moving the plot forward.

Just create a character who is not perfect and not loved by all and use your word count for plot-crucial developments instead of describing the characters beautiful features, etc.

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I agree with this one. Making a character like that is not that difficult IMO. In fact characterization is pretty easy.

DeleyanLee said:

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Personally, if Harry Potter and Anita Blake and such are Mary Sues, I'd take a look at what they've done for their authors' careers and take note--there must be something RIGHT going on there, wouldn't you think?

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Harry Potter isn't a Mary Sue. He may be an over-idealized hero at times, but he's certainly not a Mary Sue.

Anita Blake wasn't always a Mary Sue. The first few books in that series were, despite their limitations, engaging explorations of paranormal action/adventure/suspense in a modern urban setting. But the last several books have been embarrassing wish-fulfillment on the part of the author, as the lines between Blake and herself seem to have blurred.

To me, it's the wish-fulfillment factor that's the key to Mary Sue-dom.

IceCreamEmpress said:

Harry Potter isn't a Mary Sue. He may be an over-idealized hero at times, but he's certainly not a Mary Sue.

Anita Blake wasn't always a Mary Sue. The first few books in that series were, despite their limitations, engaging explorations of paranormal action/adventure/suspense in a modern urban setting. But the last several books have been embarrassing wish-fulfillment on the part of the author, as the lines between Blake and herself seem to have blurred.

To me, it's the wish-fulfillment factor that's the key to Mary Sue-dom.

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Someone mentioned HP upthread, so I repeated it. And whenever published Mary Sues are mention, Anita (and/or Merry Gentry) usually comes up since the characters look exactly like LKH.

I don't think any original character can be a Mary Sue, honestly. But, then, I seem to have a different operating definition of them than most people. That's what I get for being old. LOL!

I think of a Mary Sue as a character who has few (or no) flaws in an annoying way, has way too many abilities/powers that are too perfect, and who is loved by nearly everyone inexplicably.

Typically, a Mary Sue learns everything too fast and doesn't make mistakes. A Mary Sue tends to derail the narrative structure, making the story into a non-story about something that would be nice to experience but lacks plot tension and so is often boring or annoying to read. In other words, everyone would love to be Mary Sue but nobody wants to watch Mary Sue (except for the perverse thrill that comes from reading awful writing).

http://community.livejournal.com/marysues/profile is a particularly good community for understanding Mary Sues.

DeleyanLee said:

Someone mentioned HP upthread, so I repeated it.

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Yes, but I'm arguing that Harry Potter isn't a Mary Sue at all.

And whenever published Mary Sues are mention, Anita (and/or Merry Gentry) usually comes up since the characters look exactly like LKH.

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Anita Blake doesn't look like Laurell K. Hamilton in the first couple of books. She's half-Latina and half-Anglo, for one thing. Seriously, that series is so bizarre--it starts out as a shoddily written but interesting few books and then turns into a collection of the author's wish-fulfillment fantasies and psychodrama.

I don't think any original character can be a Mary Sue, honestly. But, then, I seem to have a different operating definition of them than most people. That's what I get for being old. LOL!

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Well, I think that people have broadened the concept from "idealized self-insert in fanfic" to "idealized self-portrait in fiction".

But Harry Potter doesn't meet either definition, whereas Anita Blake meets the second one very well.

I can't comment on Merry Gentry, because those are so horrible as to be entirely unreadable in my opinion.

It's like the literary equivalent of a sock puppet.

AZ_Dawn said:

But how good are these tests really? I sent my least Sue-like character through 2 of those tests. One said he had Sue-like tendancies; the other said he was the Anti-sue.

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They're not very good at all honestly. Sorry, I didn't mean to advocate them above.

And, like you said, there are different results based on the tests. And some tests are so set on one fandom or another (and there are different trends for Mary Sues that occur whether in a fandom or genre type)

I say just worry about creating a character that feels real and then show character development through your plot/narrative.

This is sort of off-topic but not really. On that harry potter sues link I posted above, there was one where the author literally spent whole paragraphs describing everything the Sue was wearing by brand name. Make-up and all. It was like half a page of just brand vomit. Now if you start doing that, then you KNOW you've got a problem! lol.

badducky said:

It's like the literary equivalent of a sock puppet.

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That is just beautiful. YES YES YES. Best characterization ever. I'm quoting you from now on.

Mary Sue/Marty Stu's in literature.

Sam Spade
James Bond
Dante Valentine
John Taylor
Cat Crawfield
Puss n' Boots
The Three Musketeers
Vlad Taltos
Harry Dresden
Merideth Gentry
Anita Blake
MacKayla Lane
Frodo Baggins
Bilbo Baggins
The Hardy Boys
Nancy Drew
Encyclopedia Brown

...

More?

I like all of the Mary/Marty's on this list.

Frodo is no Marty Stu. He is not a better fighter than Aragorn, he isn't a better archer than Legolas, and he doesn't look better than Legolas either.
And he does make mistakes.
It's a long time ago I read the book, but I think, Bilbo is no Marty either.
Don't know about the other characters, but I think you don't have to worry.