You police your dogs, why don't you police your kids?

KikiteNeko · Feb 26, 2008

First of all, I would like to say that I do really like kids. I have a four-year-old cousin who calls me Auntie. When I know I'm going to see her that day, I put fun cute stuff in my purse so she's not bored with all the adults, and we build blanket forts and play with plah-doh together. My other cousins--two year old twins--have pulled my hair and thrown up on me, and I love them very much.

And hey, if the little boy in his mother's grocery cart is staring at my necklace because he wants it, I'll let him touch it. I'll smile at the little girl who turns around in the booth and stares at me with deadpan eyes while I'm trying to eat my wendy's sandwich. It's all good.

What I DON'T understand is the parents who literally do not seem to CARE what their children do in public. When I worked retail, we had women would would come in with a small herd of kids under the age of ten, and they would just let them run throughout the store unsupervised. Once, I remember having to hold the door closed so that a toddler (who I think wasn't even old enough to talk) wouldn't LEAVE. No mother in sight.

Do you want your kids to end up on the news?

Today, I went to the post office. Now granted, it was 8 AM and I was cranky, and anxious about mailing off some queries. There was a little girl, maybe five or six, running the length of the PO boxes saying "I win, mommy, I win." And her mother, thumbing absently through mail, said "don't run in the store, baby." Like, once, she said this.

So fast foward, I'm in line. This girl and her mother are behind me, and I notice the little girl is INCHING UP to me. And when I say inching up, I mean she was literally touching me. And she was standing behind me so I couldn't see her, but I could freaking feel her coat swishing against my jeans. And the mother is just STANDING THERE not even saying anything.

I could say "little girl, I am not a mother koala, lay off," but why should I? She's not my kid. I didn't give birth to her. I didn't raise her. I don't cut her hot dogs into little circle-shaped chunks and serve it with broccoli so she gets a well-balanced dinner. This child is in no way my responsibility.

And clearly, she was testing her mother's limits by doing this. As I moved away, looking to the mother to give an all-too-clear hint, the girl followed me, snickering. Literally touching me, and behind me so I couldn't see her.

What the hell?

Crabbiness aside, how does this mother know I'm not some derranged lunatic who steals little girls when their mothers are thumbing through their mail? Would it have hurt to say "Dearest heart, come stand by mommy?" Or my own mother's much more effective "Get over here now." No option at all.

Am I too old to say I miss the days when parents watched their children? If I'd done something like that, my mother would have punished me severly because she didn't want me to misbehave or, worse, get snatched up by some lunatic. She was kinda insane that way.

Priene · Feb 26, 2008

tomothecat said:
Am I too old to say I miss the days when parents watched their children? If I'd done something like that, my mother would have punished me severly because she didn't want me to misbehave or, worse, get snatched up by some lunatic. She was kinda insane that way.

The chances of a given child being abducted are astronomically low. Big news when it happens, but still highly unlikely. It's much more probable they'll get hit by a car.

Children are more heavily policed by their children than any previous generation. They have far less opportunity for unsupervised play than their predecessors. The talk among educational psychologists is how to allow children more freedom, not less.

Are there some irresponsible parents around? Sure. But don't under-estimate the difficulty of keeping a 24-hour watch on another human being for five or six years, while simultaneously caring for them, nurturing them, getting no sleep and being judged by strangers for every single act they make. Shops are relatively secure environments. In that situation, you might just find yourself tempted to let the children run around a bit.

KikiteNeko · Feb 26, 2008

I wouldn't take the chance even if it is astronomically low. Although I have to say I've seen more kids running loose without a parent than at arm length with an adult. Maybe it's different where you are.
And I can honestly say that in public, I would know where my child was every single second; psychologists can say what they want about it. If I bring a child into the world it'll be my job to keep them safe.

Priene said:
The chances of a given child being abducted are astronomically low. Big news when it happens, but still highly unlikely. It's much more probable they'll get hit by a car.

Children are more heavily policed by their children than any previous generation. They have far less opportunity for unsupervised play than their predecessors. The talk among educational psychologists is how to allow children more freedom, not less.

Are there some irresponsible parents around? Sure. But don't under-estimate the difficulty of keeping a 24-hour watch on another human being for five or six years, while simultaneously caring for them, nurturing them, getting no sleep and being judged by strangers for every single act they make. Shops are relatively secure environments. In that situation, you might just find yourself tempted to let the children run around a bit.

Southern_girl29 · Feb 26, 2008

Priene said:
The chances of a given child being abducted are astronomically low. Big news when it happens, but still highly unlikely. It's much more probable they'll get hit by a car.

Children are more heavily policed by their children than any previous generation. They have far less opportunity for unsupervised play than their predecessors. The talk among educational psychologists is how to allow children more freedom, not less.

Are there some irresponsible parents around? Sure. But don't under-estimate the difficulty of keeping a 24-hour watch on another human being for five or six years, while simultaneously caring for them, nurturing them, getting no sleep and being judged by strangers for every single act they make. Shops are relatively secure environments. In that situation, you might just find yourself tempted to let the children run around a bit.

There is no way I would allow my child to run around a store without me knowing where she is at all times. I'm pretty insane about keeping her right next to me at all times or at least within grabbing distance. The odds of her being kidnapped may be extremely low, but any odds at all are too much.

Oh, and she gets plenty of unsupervised play time, when she's home in her room in a safe environment.

KikiteNeko · Feb 26, 2008

Agree. I don't have a child of my own, but I frequently have one in my care, and if I'm not holding on to her then I can see her and she's within reach.

Southern_girl29 said:
There is no way I would allow my child to run around a store without me knowing where she is at all times. I'm pretty insane about keeping her right next to me at all times or at least within grabbing distance. The odds of her being kidnapped may be extremely low, but any odds at all are too much.

Priene · Feb 26, 2008

tomothecat said:
And I can honestly say that in public, I would know where my child was every single second; psychologists can say what they want about it. If I bring a child into the world it'll be my job to keep them safe.

Before I had children, I would have said that too. But you can't do it. Not every single second for x years. No matter how you try, how much you tell yourself you must watch them, there'll always be times when you're distracted.

And, yes, we lost our daughter in the supermarket once. I thought she was with my wife, my wife thought she was with me. It happens.

And it's a parent's job is to prepare their child for adulthood. Sooner or later, they'll have to go off on their own and you won't be there. If they've had no experience at all of independence, not a single moment away from your gaze, how will they manage?

KikiteNeko · Feb 26, 2008

They can have indepenence when they're old enough to use it.

My parents kept a close eye on me and I turned out fine. I'm not judging parents, I'm sure great and attentive parents have had a child slip through the cracks, and I'm sure it is exhaustive to be a parent at all hours of the day. But I still do not think it's ever a good idea to stand by and let them run amok in a store, approach complete strangers without telling them to come back, and be out of a their sight. A parent may think it's okay for your child to talk to a stranger, but that stranger may not feel the same way.

Priene said:
Before I had children, I would have said that too. But you can't do it. Not every single second for x years. No matter how you try, how much you tell yourself you must watch them, there'll always be times when you're distracted.

And, yes, we lost our daughter in the supermarket once. I thought she was with my wife, my wife thought she was with me. It happens.

And it's a parent's job is to prepare their child for adulthood. Sooner or later, they'll have to go off on their own and you won't be there. If they've had no experience at all of independence, not a single moment away from your gaze, how will they manage?

Priene · Feb 26, 2008

Southern_girl29 said:
The odds of her being kidnapped may be extremely low, but any odds at all are too much

If any odds are too much, then you should not send them to school. There's an increased of infection through their peer group. There's a chance you'll crash the car on the way to school. A chance that a faulty heating system is incubating legionnaires disease. You should make sure you move to a low radon-area, because that increases the chance of leukaemia.

We took one of our daughters to a highly supervised playbarn, and she ended up in hospital after cracking her head open on a plastic slide.

There are dangers in every single thing you do.

KikiteNeko · Feb 26, 2008

We can't control inevitable accidents like car crashes or falls or illnesses. If we can control who they are talking to and what they're doing out in public, in my opinion we should.

Priene said:
If any odds are too much, then you should not send them to school. There's an increased of infection through their peer group. There's a chance you'll crash the car on the way to school. A chance that a faulty heating system is incubating legionnaires disease. You should make sure you move to a low radon-area, because that increases the chance of leukaemia.

We took one of our daughters to a highly supervised playbarn, and she ended up in hospital after cracking her head open on a plastic slide.

There are dangers in every single thing you do.

Perks · Feb 26, 2008

I think the question for me here is not a matter of stranger-danger. Small children shouldn't run amok in shops because they break things and disturb people trying to live their lives. If it is unseemly for me to zip through the aisles, hooting and running my hands over everything at eye-level, then it is not allowed for my children to do so either. There are ways to behave in stores, ways to behave at the playground, ways to behave at home, ways to behave at Grandma's, ways to behave in church, ways to behave in school, etc.

Talk about well-balanced! Your children can have it all, just teach them. Works for me.

Tomo, your experience in the post office was annoying. I'd've back-up one giant step (Mother-may-I) and knocked the precious little thing on her tush. "Oh my goodness! Did you fall? Are you okay? You must have been standing awfully close, but you were so quiet..." But one moment of smirky eye-contact would have let her know that it wasn't exactly an accident.

KikiteNeko · Feb 26, 2008

LMAO. These are the kinds of things that happen in my imagination sometimes =D. I did take one giant step after another to get away from her, and I did glance more than once at the mother. And she saw me. She just stood there like freaking cattle.

Perks said:
Tomo, your experience in the post office was annoying. I'd've back-up one giant step (Mother-may-I) and knocked the precious little thing on her tush. "Oh my goodness! Did you fall? Are you okay? You must have been standing awfully close, but you were so quiet..." But one moment of smirky eye-contact would have let her know that it wasn't exactly an accident.

rekirts · Feb 26, 2008

Three cheers for Perks! I agree wholeheartedly. Whether our precious ones would be abducted or not, they should still be taught manners, dammit!

Thank gawd mine are grown up!

BTW I forgot to mention that my puppy is a total brat, but I'm working on it.

Devil Ledbetter · Feb 26, 2008

Perks said:
I think the question for me here is not a matter of stranger-danger. Small children shouldn't run amok in shops because they break things and disturb people trying to live their lives. If it is unseemly for me to zip through the aisles, hooting and running my hands over everything at eye-level, then it is not allowed for my children to do so either. There are ways to behave in stores, ways to behave at the playground, ways to behave at home, ways to behave at Grandma's, ways to behave in church, ways to behave in school, etc.

Talk about well-balanced! Your children can have it all, just teach them. Works for me.

Tomo, your experience in the post office was annoying. I'd've back-up one giant step (Mother-may-I) and knocked the precious little thing on her tush. "Oh my goodness! Did you fall? Are you okay? You must have been standing awfully close, but you were so quiet..." But one moment of smirky eye-contact would have let her know that it wasn't exactly an accident.

I agree with Perks. It's not about safety so much as it is about manners. Unfortunately, a lot of parents seem to be laboring under the delusion that they may correct their children's behavior only when a personal safety issue is involved.

I got a phone call mid post. Didn't mean to echo the poster above me.

C.bronco · Feb 26, 2008

Small children can only take running errands for so long, and then they get cranky, restless, tired, need to blow off steam or just need a nap. Unfortunately, necessity sometimes dictates that the mom has to take care of certain chores, like buying food, picking up mail, going to the DMV, etc, even though the child's idealized behavior window has expired.

I'm a whole lot more understanding of children who run amok since I had one of my own who is especially energetic.

KTC · Feb 26, 2008

I discovered long ago that any asshat can procreate. It sounds like you're talking about these asshats here. I for one am a parent. I raised well mannered children who listen to me. I have never allowed my children to be unbehaved or wild when in the public domain. That is just wrong. We have to raise our children to be able to walk on two feet and act accordingly in public places. Asshats don't understand that.

writerterri · Feb 26, 2008

KTC said:
I discovered long ago that any asshat can procreate. It sounds like you're talking about these asshats here. I for one am a parent. I raised well mannered children who listen to me. I have never allowed my children to be unbehaved or wild when in the public domain. That is just wrong. We have to raise our children to be able to walk on two feet and act accordingly in public places. Asshats don't understand that.

Take my kids for a few years?

KikiteNeko · Feb 26, 2008

I would happily stand in front of you in line at the post office then

And on behalf of the world, thanks. Appreciate it.

KTC said:
I discovered long ago that any asshat can procreate. It sounds like you're talking about these asshats here. I for one am a parent. I raised well mannered children who listen to me. I have never allowed my children to be unbehaved or wild when in the public domain. That is just wrong. We have to raise our children to be able to walk on two feet and act accordingly in public places. Asshats don't understand that.

rhymegirl · Feb 26, 2008

Tomothecat, I'm with you.

Two of my sisters work in retail. It drives them crazy when mothers let their kids do anything they want in a store. Some come in with sticky lollipops, drinks, ice cream, candy in their hands, then they start touching the fabrics, or moving around the shoes. Their mothers say nothing.

When I am in a grocery store and a kid is running, I say something to the kid. I don't care whether the mom likes it or not. If she were to say anything to me, I'd say, "Your kid shouldn't be running in the store."

I've seen mothers (and fathers) looking at food items, totally ignoring their child who is standing up in the shopping cart about to fall out.

I'll never forget the time it happened at an Ann & Hope store with a very hard, concrete floor. This child fell out of the shopping cart right onto this hard floor, hit her head. She cried and cried. It absolutely killed me. Not my child, but man, what a horrible thing to happen.

When my kids went shopping with me to any store, they had to stay right with me. They could not run around. If they acted up, I said, "Okay, we are leaving." But I told them ahead of time how to behave in a store AND in a restaurant.

And one time at a skating party place, this maybe 10-year-old boy cut right in front of me when I was trying to get something out of the machine. I said, "I guess you left your manners at home." He looked at me, stunned. Then he said, "I'm sorry." Well, that's a little progress, I guess.

Perks · Feb 26, 2008

You know what works too? We wash our hands after lunch or a snack and if we're in a place where there are things that the girls can touch (like fabrics or plastics or things unlikely to get smashed into billions of expensive little pieces) I invite them to touch. We talk about things - what's pretty, what looks good to eat, smell this peach. They handle items gently. They don't stand in the middle of the aisle. They don't cut people off. They don't make everyone else's shopping experience a nuisance.

I've found if I've given them lots of outlets for their natural curiosities and tactile cravings, they'll cut me some slack if I ask them to keep their hands to themselves in the glasswares department.

Now, in the Post Office, the older one - for some reason - when she was a toddler, always placidly began to remove her clothes. I have no idea why. It was a short-lived phase.

The little one still likes to crawl into the empty P.O. Boxes. (The big ones, obviously.) I don't know why for that one either.

But they're always pleasant about these things.

C.bronco · Feb 26, 2008

Shopping carts are key as long as you follow the safety rules as stated on the plastic seats. They say "don't leave your child unattended in the cart," "don't place your child in the back of the cart," and "buckle your child in the seat." It does bother me when parents don't follow this.

I have to say, my son is very well behaved, but he's also a kid and not the risen saviour. I try to avoid being overly anal.

onlyhere · Feb 26, 2008

The children in my neighborhood don't appear to have parents. I see little ones in diapers outside being watched by older siblings who I'm quite sure haven't been potty trained all the long ago themselves. Mom can usually be found sitting on the couch, watching a soap opera. More times than not, there is no dad in the household.

dobiwon · Feb 26, 2008

Shops are relatively secure environments. In that situation, you might just find yourself tempted to let the children run around a bit.

You are quite right--you might be tempted to do it, but that's when the parent alarm should go off in your head nice and loud, and you don't allow yourself to give in to the temptation. If your child is being rambunctuous and unruly, you do the adult-parent thing and give up your shopping for a while and tend to your child.

we lost our daughter in the supermarket once.

And I'd be willing to bet that from that point on, you did whatever you needed to do to make sure it didn't happen again.

Preparing your children for when they don't have you around can certainly be done without endangering their safety during the time when they do have you around. (And that goes even after they're "old enough". My daughters are grown with children of their own, and if I meet them at a mall or restaurant, I still walk them to their car. Once a parent...)

DonnaDuck · Feb 26, 2008

I was put on a leash. Literally. It was this plastic slinky thing with a piece of velco that went around my wrist and my mom's or dad's. We went out, I went on that. They had lost me once at a fair and I guess that was the end of that. My family also feared that my legs would atrophy because my feet didn't touch the ground until I was 2. But I also had a mother that struck the fear of god into me when I got old enough to consider the thought of talking back. Fear works wondered and while I rebeled slightly, like every teenager does, I didn't push it because the woman wasn't afraid to hit. I plan on doing the same thing to my children. I like the whole seen and not heard mantra when it comes to public places. I'll be damned if I have some unruly, snotnosed little shit running about the place because mommy won't buy him a toy. Mommy will duct tape him to his carseat until he shuts up. I have more patience for my dog (who's demeanor is equivalent to a Jack Russel on Meth) than I do for children. Children can understand. Dogs cannot although when he looks at me while he's peeing on my bed because I wasn't paying enough attention to him, I swear he's telling me to go fuck myself.

Serenity · Feb 26, 2008

Things do happen, yes. Children are sneaky little buggars, I work with them for a living. But, that aside, if you are right there, and can plainly see what your child is doing, you need more than a few, "Don't do that, dear"s, especially when in public.

I would have been annoyed had that child been behind me at the post office too and probably would have turned around and said, "Careful, kiddo, I don't want to knock you over by accident!"

That having been said, I used to work at Borders Book store and parents literally thought that our children's section was a daycare to drop their kids off at while they shopped for grown-up books. I actually heard one parent tell her 3 year old son to stay put and read while, "Mommy shops for her own books." I politely cleared my throat and informed her that children should not be left unattended in the store because the children's section was open on all sides. And I had to say "should not" because nobody else enforced the "can not" part of the little warning sign on the one pillar. And with some of the people that came in that store? I sure as hell wouldn't have left my child unattended on purpose.

I got a nasty look, but she could have easily gotten a call from CPS. I'm not saying that I *would* have, before someone jumps on that, but I could have. :tongue

sassandgroove · Feb 26, 2008

You police your dogs, why don't you police your kids?

Judging from my neighborhood, not everyone polices their dogs. I would wager they are the people who let their kids run amok in public, though.

You police your dogs, why don't you police your kids?

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