Consolidated PublishAmerica Thread

Vote for PA Public Enemy #1 :hat


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CWGranny

Hey this sounds great...

It's a website that tells you all about how you should avoid vanity presses...and THEN tells you that the big guys won't publish your book or even respond to a submission for two years...then tells you what a great deal a bunch of authors got from this great company called PA.

Oh...and, by the way, the website is created by PA...but that's okay -- you can take their word for it anyway. No vested interest there.

www.authorsmarket.net/

A new net for the unwary.
The internet is like a tuna fishing operation...swim away, swim away.

Gran
 

marky48

Re: Hey this sounds great...

I couldn't back out of it either without a fight. How appropriate is that? He's casting a wider net.
 

James D Macdonald

Author's Market

Wow! Author's Market!


Woo! Listen to this!

"Are all fiction books difficult to market? The short answer is, "yes". The nuanced answer is, "not always." Nora Roberts, Tom Clancy, and Stephen King have no problem getting their fiction published. But you are not them, not yet. A second caveat is that science-fiction and fantasy writers have it easier. It's unfair, but such is life. As a rule of thumb, the quality bar for sci-fi and fantasy is a lot lower than for all other fiction. Therefore, beware of published authors who are self-crowned writing experts. When they tell you what to do and not to do in getting your book published, always first ask them what genre they write. If it's sci-fi or fantasy, run. They have no clue about what it is to write real-life stories, and how to find them a home. Unless you are a sci-fi or fantasy author yourself."

I guess Ann and Victoria are really scoring some hits on these thieves. Did they fail to notice that Stephen King writes science fiction and fantasy, that Tom Clancy is a member of SFWA, and that Nora Roberts uses supernatural and fantastic themes in some of her romances? Nor do that mention that all three of those people came out of the slush pile. Nor do they mention that major publishers publish first-time authors every day.

Don't believe me -- walk into any bookstore. You'll find first time authors from major houses right there on the shelf. What you won't find ... books by PublishAmerica authors who didn't stop by in person to beg the manager to please, please, please stock one copy.

See also the whole of this page: <a href="http://www.authorsmarket.net/youreyes.htm" target="_new">www.authorsmarket.net/youreyes.htm</a>

Ann, Dave, Victoria... SFWA in general....


Okay, guys, don't trust me because I write SF and Fantasy (although I do). Trust me because I write Technothrillers and mysteries and non-fiction (which I also do).

This entire suite of pages is misleading to the point of scandal.

Yes, it's an advertising dodge by our old friends at PublishAmerica. I may be back picking out specific lies and weasel-wording in this ad for that notorious installment-plan vanity press: PublishAmerica.
 

XThe NavigatorX

Re: Author's Market

And for those who doubt, Internic Whois information for authorsmarket.net:


authorsmarket.net

Registrant:
Authors Market (XKQQOFOMCD)
PO box 151
Frederick, MD 21705
US

( If you do a search on that PO Box, that's the mail-in address for PA book orders )

Domain Name: AUTHORSMARKET.NET

Administrative Contact, Technical Contact:
n, n (36324910P) [email protected]
Authors Market
PO box 151
Frederick, MD 21705
US
240-555-555 (fake number. There's a real number under the registration of publishamerica.com, however)

Record expires on 31-Oct-2004.
Record created on 31-Oct-2003.
Database last updated on 21-Nov-2003 18:12:29 EST.
 

XThe NavigatorX

Re: Author's Market

Of course none of that was needed, since they admit it on their 'about us' page. 8o
 

marky48

Re: Author's Market

Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain with no clothes. I am the great ..and ..er... ah...powerful Oz!
 

DaveKuzminski

That site shows they're desperate

I can be trusted, too. I also write non-fiction, humor, horror, and technical manuals. I've even written inspirational stories, one of which has been translated into four languages. I mean, how many of their authors have had their work translated into Tagalong?

Well, time to go look at their other site, www.publishedauthors.net/ ,that was mentioned in there.
 

marky48

Re: That site shows they're desperate

This is part of the author websites they created. I have one, but I put nothing on it naturally. The book's there though. They must desperate with all the bad press lately. Maybe something will get going soon.
 

James D Macdonald

Re: That site shows they're desperate

Oh, PublishedAuthors.net .... that's the free webpages and email accounts that PA is giving to their authors.

I suspect that's a way for them to control the authors -- if they're all in one place, on the PA server, no one will be telling their own story of their adventures in the wild. And, if PA controls their email accounts ... well, if they get out of line all their friends can loose track of them real fast.

Keep up the good work, Dave. They're worried.
 

CWGranny

Re: Well, gee

Wow, James, I noticed in that link you posted that PA listed children's writing among those who close the doors on new writers. Children's publishing continues to be one of the most new writers friendly fields in the business (despite the financial belt tightening of the last few years.) How stupid do they think people are? Forget that -- I know the answer, they count on people to be very very stupid.

I wonder how the many many many PA authors of science fiction and fantasy like being told they write in the no talent easy genre -- plus, I guess they got doubly duped since it's so easy to get published by the big houses in science fiction and fantasy.

I bet their lawyers took a long long long time clearing that crap to avoid getting the snot sued out of them. Now -- does anyone still doubt whether the false PA authors who smeared Ann and Victoria with these exact same words on the PA message board was really working for PA directly?

No shame, these folks have no shame.

Gran
 

marky48

Re: Well, gee

Did anyone ever doubt it, other than the majority of their authors? It's the standard appeal to ignorance strategy they've used all along.

The book signing in Cleveland is shaping up. I couldn't make sense out the payment plan, and neither could they.
 

vstrauss

Re: Author's Market

Good gad. I guess we're really getting to them.

The "Only Trust Your Own Eyes" section is a _direct_ hit at Ann and me. First it disses Star Trek authors. Then it goes on to condemn "plagiarists" who "loot mythologies" for "rewritten storylines"--which is exactly what was said about me by anonymous posters on the PA message board a year ago, when they were trying to start a plagiarism rumor about me.

Yowza. They hate us. They really hate us! For a scam-hunter, there's no better endorsement...

- Victoria
Writer Beware
www.writerbeware.com/
 

DaveKuzminski

They're even slapping Canada James

He writes in the science fiction and fantasy genres, so the warning about not trusting writers in those would apply to him as well. After all, he's also posted covert warnings about PublishAmerica.

I wonder how he feels about his buddies now that they've said he writes in the easy fields and isn't to be trusted.
 

James D Macdonald

Lies

Here's a quote from Author's Market, from <a href="http://www.authorsmarket.net/yourbook.htm" target="_new">www.authorsmarket.net/yourbook.htm</a>:

"There are 56,000 publishers in the U.S."

Here's a reply to that, from elsewhere on the web:

<blockquote>

I have serious trouble believing there are 56,000 publishers in the United States. That'd give you an average of 1,120 per state. You might get away with that in New York and California, but they'd kind of stand out in Wyoming and Montana, and in Rhode Island the publishers would outnumber the burger stands.

I went and looked in our office copy of Publishers Directory. It's dated 1999 and was published by Gale Research, but there's a limit to how far wrong even Gale can go. According to the PD, in 1999 there were 18,985 publishers in Canada and the United States combined. That includes the America Tolkien Society, which publishes a quarterly journal plus buttons, t-shirts, posters, etc. Also: some people in West Virginia who self-published a tailgater's cookbook, a firm that publishes psychological testing materials, a bookshop that reprints antique maps of its historic local area, a guy in California who publishes real estate licensing test prep materials, a fruit & vegetable growers' association that publishes occasional newsletters, a professional organization that sends its members an annual directory of the pet industry in Canada, about a zillion local museums and historical societies, and the Urdu Society of Canada. Are you getting the idea?

</blockquote>
 

marky48

Re: Lies

I can't think of many in California either. This isn't exactly a literary bastion out here. Everything is screenplays. That sounds like deception to me, part of the "lies, damed lies, and statistics" school.
 

DaveKuzminski

Typical of them

James D. Macdonald: that's typical of them not to attribute the sources for their information. That way they can't be called liars. If anyone asks for a source, they'll probably state that they read it in an industry source but can't recall which one or which issue.

Need anything more be said about their numbers or their other facts and logic? They're desperate to keep the money flowing into their pockets. Plain and simple. They have all those little green reasons prodding them to act as they do while we're voluntarily doing what we do because it's not right to see people lose their dreams.
 

stormie267

POD

After reading the above posts, I visited the Authorsmarket.net and Publish America, out of curiosity. (My first book is already published by a small publishing house). My question is: PA is touting the fact that writers shouldn't have to pay to be published, yet I thought POD books cost the author some money, at least initially. I know POD isn't anywhere near the horrors of vanity presses, but the cost to publish with them isn't mentioned anywhere on their site. And isn't self-publishing the same thing as POD? (By the way, their site is terrible and Victoria has helped me immensely with her Beware board).
--Anne
 

DaveKuzminski

POD

POD is not the same thing as self-publishing. POD is a method of printing. However, many people incorrectly ascribe it as meaning self-published because so many self-publishers use that method because it's more economical for them than many other methods.

PublishAmerica does not charge its writers, though it does encourage them to purchase their own books.
 

James D Macdonald

Re: POD

Where to begin, where to begin?

Okay, let's start here. POD is both a printing technology and a business model.

POD as a printing technology is as opposed to offset. The book exists as a digital file that's fed through an IBM DocuTech, and a perfect-bound book comes out the far side.

POD as a business model says that the file is only sent through that DocuTech after an order is received from a customer.

Self-publishing, true self-publishing, goes like this: the author puts up all the money, does all the work, and reaps all the profits. There is no question about "royalties." The author has all the rights. The printer is in the equation, but drops out entirely when the carton of books is delivered. After that the author has to do all the marketing and distribution.

In self-publishing the author can choose either digital (POD) technology, or offset. Both of those have setup costs; POD's setup costs are lower. The print runs can be lower with POD -- with offset the author can wind up with a garage full of cartons of books. With POD he can order up fifty more every time he sells fifty.

However -- the thousandth POD book costs just as much to manufacture as the first one. With offset the unit price goes down as the printrun goes up. After you figure in the setup costs you figure the printrun. At some point the cost-per-unit will become cheaper with offset. That point is somewhere in the low three figures. The problem comes in selling the books. If you already know by name everyone who's likely to buy your book (a family history, a church cookbook), or you have well developed niche but no hope of larger distribution (a town history), or if you have a specialized face-to-face market, like a poet who sells chapbooks of her poetry after a reading, or an inspirational speaker who sells copies of his book from the back of the hall after his talk, then self-publishing might be your best choice.

With a vanity press, the author pays the cost of printing, but the printer keeps the rights to the book. They pay royalties on sales. Some vanity presses use POD technology, and a POD business model. No book is printed until it's ordered. The problem here is still creating the demand. Another problem is that the cost of the service is many times what it would cost the author to do it himself with the self-publishing model. A third problem is the difficulty of putting vanity books into bookstores. You will have an easier time with a self-published book than you will with a vanity published book.

Some POD vanity presses include Xlibris, iUniverse, and 1stBooks. They ask for money up front.

Now we come to PublishAmerica. They're a vanity POD, but they've come up with an interesting twist.

They don't ask for a large sum of cash up front, instead they pay a token one dollar (which exchange of value makes the contract harder to break). The author is expected to buy his own copyright ($30, putting him $29 in the hole on day one), and provide a list of names of people likely to buy the book. PA sends that list an announcement; this is the sum total of their publicity effort.

The clever thing that PA did is this: they noticed that authors tend to sell, on average, 75 copies of their titles. When you take the total sales of 1stBooks, divide by their number of titles, you come up with around 75 copies per title. When you take the number of books sold by iUniverse, and divide by their total number of titles, you get around 75 copies per title. When you take Lightning Source International (the guys who own those DocuTech machines that all of these people, including PublishAmerica use), they claim around 90 copies per title. [Footnote here: LSI also produces digitial copies for major publishers including Random House, Simon & Schuster, and others. Those major publishers use PoD technology to create galley proofs, advance reading copies, and other low-print-run items. But this fact allows PA to claim that they use the same printer as major presses, and that most major presses use PoD technology.]

So. If you do nothing at all, you can rely on your authors to come up with 75 sales per title. This is because authors love their books, and mom and dad and Uncle Stu can be counted on to buy a copy or two or three regardless of the price.

So, PA puts its cover prices $5 above similiar books printed with identical technology, and relies on the immutable behavior of authors to produce 75 sales at the overpriced rate. That works out to a vanity press on the installment plan.

The PA business model relies on signing up mass numbers of authors. They cheap out on production -- the books aren't edited -- and pour the text through the DocuTech machines. The literary quality of the books doesn't concern them. They know that on average 75 copies of each will sell, and that's enough.

Other things you should know about PA: the contract is non-standard, and author unfriendly. Their royalites are paid on net, rather than cover price. The royalties are only 8%, low by the standards of traditional publishing, and low compared to other vanity PoDs. They, like the other vanity PoDs, don't accept returns from bookstores, which torpedoes bookstore placement, and offer a low discount to bookstores, which provides little incentive for bookstores to stock them.

Authors are put under heavy pressure to buy large quantities of their own books.


That should be a good starting point for this discussion.

[Why you should believe me, part two: I also write horror, and short stories, and young adult fiction.]
 

James D Macdonald

Prices and Sales

In a way, what Author's Market/PublishAmerica says about <a href="http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/1510.htm" target="_new">price not affecting sales</a> is true.

Check out <a href="http://www.metropolisink.com/index.htm" target="_new">Metropolis Ink</a>, another PoD with an identical business model (minus only the insulting one-dollar advance). Check out the Amazon sales ranks of their books. You'll see that even though MI's books are five dollars or more cheaper than PA's cover prices for books of the same length, their sales ranks are about the same: abysmal.

I'll bet you a solid nickel that Metropolis Ink is selling, on average, 75 copies per title.
 

marky48

Re: Prices and Sales

And I actually did it and agree with James in entirety. I laughed at the dollar, while most actually frame them. I'm not laughing now. Unfortunately, once you sign there is little that can be done. They've got the rights for 7 years.

Once I pressed them on the details of marketing (I didn't use the list,) and book store placement, it didn't take long for the PA staff to admit in writing that they could do no such thing as claimed. Too late now.

But the use of deceptive advertising to hook clients is open to debate. It will be a test case of sorts but that's fine with me.

Family history, as a disqualifier in traditional publishing is also open to debate. I wrote one that is a biography of a semi-famous American New England shipbuilder and patriot Major Reuben Colburn my ancestor, the founder of Pittston, Maine, who guided Benedict Arnold and an 1100-man army on a infamously disatrous expedition to Quebec in 1775.

Many writers, some novelists have used him in their works by name. He's in all of the history books, yet publishers see this as too narrow a focus for a market. Daniel Morgan , Aaron Burr, (naturally much more infamous) and others present that month at our house (now a national historic site) get the book treatment. Yet the businessman who orgainized and paid for the whole thing can't get a look. Closer looks make good stories.

Now if this was just Uncle Joe who worked at the shoe shop married Mabel and had some kids (as are many vanity and PA books) I'd say that's not much of a story, but excuse me, this is national history with major players. It's not the same thing yet receives the same old memoir slushpile treatment.

I do have a small pub with returns 10% on the cover and a print run of 200. That isn't much, but better than nothing which is what these other venues are. I just wish they weren't in Maryland. I'm not a big fan of that state at this point.
 

CWGranny

Re: Prices and Sales

Children's nonfiction often covers minor historical figures in order to give the reader a more well-rounded sense of history. You might consider writing the book for a children's publisher. It's a challenge but the readership tends to be more avid.

Gran
 

James D Macdonald

Re: Prices and Sales

If you don't like the "family history" example, then a repair and maintenance manual for the 1914 Stutz "Bearcat" six-cylinder engine might be a better example of a book best self-published.

In any case, rejection rates in legitimate publishing are very high. This is true. This is because the number of mediocre-to-unreadable books is very large. While I doubt that the rejection rate is as high as 99.5% (I think it's actually around 98%) here's the take-home lesson: if you can produce two consecutive pages of grammatical English with standard spelling, you're already in the top 10%. Remember, people, there, their, and they're are three different words with three different meanings.

If you have a compelling story compellingly told, you're in the top 1% and I promise you that your book will sell.

Every publisher out there knows that Tom Clancy, John Grisham, and Stephen King won't live forever. And they know that the next King, Grisham, and Clancy are in the slush heap.

This is a game of skill, not a game of chance.
 

reph

Family history

Marky wrote: "Family history, as a disqualifier in traditional publishing is also open to debate. I wrote ... a biography of ... my ancestor ... He's in all of the history books, yet publishers see this as too narrow a focus for a market."

Maybe you stopped sending the ms. around too soon. A friend wrote the story of her father, a muckraking newspaper editor who was murdered by gangsters connected to the corrupt state government (Minnesota) he'd been investigating. She finally found a publisher, the U. of Minn. Press.
 
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