View Full Version : Consolidated PublishAmerica Thread

11-22-2003, 05:10 AM
It's a website that tells you all about how you should avoid vanity presses...and THEN tells you that the big guys won't publish your book or even respond to a submission for two years...then tells you what a great deal a bunch of authors got from this great company called PA.

Oh...and, by the way, the website is created by PA...but that's okay -- you can take their word for it anyway. No vested interest there.

www.authorsmarket.net/ (http://www.authorsmarket.net/)

A new net for the unwary.
The internet is like a tuna fishing operation...swim away, swim away.


11-22-2003, 05:37 AM
I couldn't back out of it either without a fight. How appropriate is that? He's casting a wider net.

James D Macdonald
11-22-2003, 06:05 AM
Wow! Author's Market!

Woo! Listen to this!

"Are all fiction books difficult to market? The short answer is, "yes". The nuanced answer is, "not always." Nora Roberts, Tom Clancy, and Stephen King have no problem getting their fiction published. But you are not them, not yet. A second caveat is that science-fiction and fantasy writers have it easier. It's unfair, but such is life. As a rule of thumb, the quality bar for sci-fi and fantasy is a lot lower than for all other fiction. Therefore, beware of published authors who are self-crowned writing experts. When they tell you what to do and not to do in getting your book published, always first ask them what genre they write. If it's sci-fi or fantasy, run. They have no clue about what it is to write real-life stories, and how to find them a home. Unless you are a sci-fi or fantasy author yourself."

I guess Ann and Victoria are really scoring some hits on these thieves. Did they fail to notice that Stephen King writes science fiction and fantasy, that Tom Clancy is a member of SFWA, and that Nora Roberts uses supernatural and fantastic themes in some of her romances? Nor do that mention that all three of those people came out of the slush pile. Nor do they mention that major publishers publish first-time authors every day.

Don't believe me -- walk into any bookstore. You'll find first time authors from major houses right there on the shelf. What you won't find ... books by PublishAmerica authors who didn't stop by in person to beg the manager to please, please, please stock one copy.

See also the whole of this page: <a href="http://www.authorsmarket.net/youreyes.htm" target="_new">www.authorsmarket.net/youreyes.htm</a>

Ann, Dave, Victoria... SFWA in general....

Okay, guys, don't trust me because I write SF and Fantasy (although I do). Trust me because I write Technothrillers and mysteries and non-fiction (which I also do).

This entire suite of pages is misleading to the point of scandal.

Yes, it's an advertising dodge by our old friends at PublishAmerica. I may be back picking out specific lies and weasel-wording in this ad for that notorious installment-plan vanity press: PublishAmerica.

XThe NavigatorX
11-22-2003, 06:16 AM
And for those who doubt, Internic Whois information for authorsmarket.net:


Authors Market (XKQQOFOMCD)
PO box 151
Frederick, MD 21705

( If you do a search on that PO Box, that's the mail-in address for PA book orders )


Administrative Contact, Technical Contact:
n, n (36324910P) techsupport@authorsmarket.net
Authors Market
PO box 151
Frederick, MD 21705
240-555-555 (fake number. There's a real number under the registration of publishamerica.com, however)

Record expires on 31-Oct-2004.
Record created on 31-Oct-2003.
Database last updated on 21-Nov-2003 18:12:29 EST.

XThe NavigatorX
11-22-2003, 06:20 AM
Of course none of that was needed, since they admit it on their 'about us' page. 8o

11-22-2003, 07:21 AM
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain with no clothes. I am the great ..and ..er... ah...powerful Oz!

11-22-2003, 07:51 AM
I can be trusted, too. I also write non-fiction, humor, horror, and technical manuals. I've even written inspirational stories, one of which has been translated into four languages. I mean, how many of their authors have had their work translated into Tagalong?

Well, time to go look at their other site, www.publishedauthors.net/ (http://www.publishedauthors.net/) ,that was mentioned in there.

11-22-2003, 08:01 AM
This is part of the author websites they created. I have one, but I put nothing on it naturally. The book's there though. They must desperate with all the bad press lately. Maybe something will get going soon.

James D Macdonald
11-22-2003, 08:04 AM
Oh, PublishedAuthors.net .... that's the free webpages and email accounts that PA is giving to their authors.

I suspect that's a way for them to control the authors -- if they're all in one place, on the PA server, no one will be telling their own story of their adventures in the wild. And, if PA controls their email accounts ... well, if they get out of line all their friends can loose track of them real fast.

Keep up the good work, Dave. They're worried.

11-22-2003, 08:07 AM
Why am I not surprized to discover that www.publishedauthors.net/ (http://www.publishedauthors.net/) is also operated by PublishAmerica?

11-22-2003, 08:51 AM
Wow, James, I noticed in that link you posted that PA listed children's writing among those who close the doors on new writers. Children's publishing continues to be one of the most new writers friendly fields in the business (despite the financial belt tightening of the last few years.) How stupid do they think people are? Forget that -- I know the answer, they count on people to be very very stupid.

I wonder how the many many many PA authors of science fiction and fantasy like being told they write in the no talent easy genre -- plus, I guess they got doubly duped since it's so easy to get published by the big houses in science fiction and fantasy.

I bet their lawyers took a long long long time clearing that crap to avoid getting the snot sued out of them. Now -- does anyone still doubt whether the false PA authors who smeared Ann and Victoria with these exact same words on the PA message board was really working for PA directly?

No shame, these folks have no shame.


11-22-2003, 09:22 AM
Did anyone ever doubt it, other than the majority of their authors? It's the standard appeal to ignorance strategy they've used all along.

The book signing in Cleveland is shaping up. I couldn't make sense out the payment plan, and neither could they.

11-22-2003, 09:28 AM
Good gad. I guess we're really getting to them.

The "Only Trust Your Own Eyes" section is a _direct_ hit at Ann and me. First it disses Star Trek authors. Then it goes on to condemn "plagiarists" who "loot mythologies" for "rewritten storylines"--which is exactly what was said about me by anonymous posters on the PA message board a year ago, when they were trying to start a plagiarism rumor about me.

Yowza. They hate us. They really hate us! For a scam-hunter, there's no better endorsement...

- Victoria
Writer Beware
www.writerbeware.com/ (http://www.writerbeware.com/)

11-22-2003, 09:31 AM
He writes in the science fiction and fantasy genres, so the warning about not trusting writers in those would apply to him as well. After all, he's also posted covert warnings about PublishAmerica.

I wonder how he feels about his buddies now that they've said he writes in the easy fields and isn't to be trusted.

James D Macdonald
11-22-2003, 09:31 AM
Here's a quote from Author's Market, from <a href="http://www.authorsmarket.net/yourbook.htm" target="_new">www.authorsmarket.net/yourbook.htm</a>:

"There are 56,000 publishers in the U.S."

Here's a reply to that, from elsewhere on the web:


I have serious trouble believing there are 56,000 publishers in the United States. That'd give you an average of 1,120 per state. You might get away with that in New York and California, but they'd kind of stand out in Wyoming and Montana, and in Rhode Island the publishers would outnumber the burger stands.

I went and looked in our office copy of Publishers Directory. It's dated 1999 and was published by Gale Research, but there's a limit to how far wrong even Gale can go. According to the PD, in 1999 there were 18,985 publishers in Canada and the United States combined. That includes the America Tolkien Society, which publishes a quarterly journal plus buttons, t-shirts, posters, etc. Also: some people in West Virginia who self-published a tailgater's cookbook, a firm that publishes psychological testing materials, a bookshop that reprints antique maps of its historic local area, a guy in California who publishes real estate licensing test prep materials, a fruit & vegetable growers' association that publishes occasional newsletters, a professional organization that sends its members an annual directory of the pet industry in Canada, about a zillion local museums and historical societies, and the Urdu Society of Canada. Are you getting the idea?


11-22-2003, 09:42 AM
I can't think of many in California either. This isn't exactly a literary bastion out here. Everything is screenplays. That sounds like deception to me, part of the "lies, damed lies, and statistics" school.

11-22-2003, 09:44 AM
James D. Macdonald: that's typical of them not to attribute the sources for their information. That way they can't be called liars. If anyone asks for a source, they'll probably state that they read it in an industry source but can't recall which one or which issue.

Need anything more be said about their numbers or their other facts and logic? They're desperate to keep the money flowing into their pockets. Plain and simple. They have all those little green reasons prodding them to act as they do while we're voluntarily doing what we do because it's not right to see people lose their dreams.

11-22-2003, 09:52 AM
After reading the above posts, I visited the Authorsmarket.net and Publish America, out of curiosity. (My first book is already published by a small publishing house). My question is: PA is touting the fact that writers shouldn't have to pay to be published, yet I thought POD books cost the author some money, at least initially. I know POD isn't anywhere near the horrors of vanity presses, but the cost to publish with them isn't mentioned anywhere on their site. And isn't self-publishing the same thing as POD? (By the way, their site is terrible and Victoria has helped me immensely with her Beware board).

11-22-2003, 10:26 AM
POD is not the same thing as self-publishing. POD is a method of printing. However, many people incorrectly ascribe it as meaning self-published because so many self-publishers use that method because it's more economical for them than many other methods.

PublishAmerica does not charge its writers, though it does encourage them to purchase their own books.

James D Macdonald
11-22-2003, 11:17 AM
Where to begin, where to begin?

Okay, let's start here. POD is both a printing technology and a business model.

POD as a printing technology is as opposed to offset. The book exists as a digital file that's fed through an IBM DocuTech, and a perfect-bound book comes out the far side.

POD as a business model says that the file is only sent through that DocuTech after an order is received from a customer.

Self-publishing, true self-publishing, goes like this: the author puts up all the money, does all the work, and reaps all the profits. There is no question about "royalties." The author has all the rights. The printer is in the equation, but drops out entirely when the carton of books is delivered. After that the author has to do all the marketing and distribution.

In self-publishing the author can choose either digital (POD) technology, or offset. Both of those have setup costs; POD's setup costs are lower. The print runs can be lower with POD -- with offset the author can wind up with a garage full of cartons of books. With POD he can order up fifty more every time he sells fifty.

However -- the thousandth POD book costs just as much to manufacture as the first one. With offset the unit price goes down as the printrun goes up. After you figure in the setup costs you figure the printrun. At some point the cost-per-unit will become cheaper with offset. That point is somewhere in the low three figures. The problem comes in selling the books. If you already know by name everyone who's likely to buy your book (a family history, a church cookbook), or you have well developed niche but no hope of larger distribution (a town history), or if you have a specialized face-to-face market, like a poet who sells chapbooks of her poetry after a reading, or an inspirational speaker who sells copies of his book from the back of the hall after his talk, then self-publishing might be your best choice.

With a vanity press, the author pays the cost of printing, but the printer keeps the rights to the book. They pay royalties on sales. Some vanity presses use POD technology, and a POD business model. No book is printed until it's ordered. The problem here is still creating the demand. Another problem is that the cost of the service is many times what it would cost the author to do it himself with the self-publishing model. A third problem is the difficulty of putting vanity books into bookstores. You will have an easier time with a self-published book than you will with a vanity published book.

Some POD vanity presses include Xlibris, iUniverse, and 1stBooks. They ask for money up front.

Now we come to PublishAmerica. They're a vanity POD, but they've come up with an interesting twist.

They don't ask for a large sum of cash up front, instead they pay a token one dollar (which exchange of value makes the contract harder to break). The author is expected to buy his own copyright ($30, putting him $29 in the hole on day one), and provide a list of names of people likely to buy the book. PA sends that list an announcement; this is the sum total of their publicity effort.

The clever thing that PA did is this: they noticed that authors tend to sell, on average, 75 copies of their titles. When you take the total sales of 1stBooks, divide by their number of titles, you come up with around 75 copies per title. When you take the number of books sold by iUniverse, and divide by their total number of titles, you get around 75 copies per title. When you take Lightning Source International (the guys who own those DocuTech machines that all of these people, including PublishAmerica use), they claim around 90 copies per title. [Footnote here: LSI also produces digitial copies for major publishers including Random House, Simon & Schuster, and others. Those major publishers use PoD technology to create galley proofs, advance reading copies, and other low-print-run items. But this fact allows PA to claim that they use the same printer as major presses, and that most major presses use PoD technology.]

So. If you do nothing at all, you can rely on your authors to come up with 75 sales per title. This is because authors love their books, and mom and dad and Uncle Stu can be counted on to buy a copy or two or three regardless of the price.

So, PA puts its cover prices $5 above similiar books printed with identical technology, and relies on the immutable behavior of authors to produce 75 sales at the overpriced rate. That works out to a vanity press on the installment plan.

The PA business model relies on signing up mass numbers of authors. They cheap out on production -- the books aren't edited -- and pour the text through the DocuTech machines. The literary quality of the books doesn't concern them. They know that on average 75 copies of each will sell, and that's enough.

Other things you should know about PA: the contract is non-standard, and author unfriendly. Their royalites are paid on net, rather than cover price. The royalties are only 8%, low by the standards of traditional publishing, and low compared to other vanity PoDs. They, like the other vanity PoDs, don't accept returns from bookstores, which torpedoes bookstore placement, and offer a low discount to bookstores, which provides little incentive for bookstores to stock them.

Authors are put under heavy pressure to buy large quantities of their own books.

That should be a good starting point for this discussion.

[Why you should believe me, part two: I also write horror, and short stories, and young adult fiction.]

James D Macdonald
11-22-2003, 01:15 PM
In a way, what Author's Market/PublishAmerica says about <a href="http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/1510.htm" target="_new">price not affecting sales</a> is true.

Check out <a href="http://www.metropolisink.com/index.htm" target="_new">Metropolis Ink</a>, another PoD with an identical business model (minus only the insulting one-dollar advance). Check out the Amazon sales ranks of their books. You'll see that even though MI's books are five dollars or more cheaper than PA's cover prices for books of the same length, their sales ranks are about the same: abysmal.

I'll bet you a solid nickel that Metropolis Ink is selling, on average, 75 copies per title.

11-22-2003, 11:16 PM
And I actually did it and agree with James in entirety. I laughed at the dollar, while most actually frame them. I'm not laughing now. Unfortunately, once you sign there is little that can be done. They've got the rights for 7 years.

Once I pressed them on the details of marketing (I didn't use the list,) and book store placement, it didn't take long for the PA staff to admit in writing that they could do no such thing as claimed. Too late now.

But the use of deceptive advertising to hook clients is open to debate. It will be a test case of sorts but that's fine with me.

Family history, as a disqualifier in traditional publishing is also open to debate. I wrote one that is a biography of a semi-famous American New England shipbuilder and patriot Major Reuben Colburn my ancestor, the founder of Pittston, Maine, who guided Benedict Arnold and an 1100-man army on a infamously disatrous expedition to Quebec in 1775.

Many writers, some novelists have used him in their works by name. He's in all of the history books, yet publishers see this as too narrow a focus for a market. Daniel Morgan , Aaron Burr, (naturally much more infamous) and others present that month at our house (now a national historic site) get the book treatment. Yet the businessman who orgainized and paid for the whole thing can't get a look. Closer looks make good stories.

Now if this was just Uncle Joe who worked at the shoe shop married Mabel and had some kids (as are many vanity and PA books) I'd say that's not much of a story, but excuse me, this is national history with major players. It's not the same thing yet receives the same old memoir slushpile treatment.

I do have a small pub with returns 10% on the cover and a print run of 200. That isn't much, but better than nothing which is what these other venues are. I just wish they weren't in Maryland. I'm not a big fan of that state at this point.

11-22-2003, 11:48 PM
Children's nonfiction often covers minor historical figures in order to give the reader a more well-rounded sense of history. You might consider writing the book for a children's publisher. It's a challenge but the readership tends to be more avid.


James D Macdonald
11-22-2003, 11:50 PM
If you don't like the "family history" example, then a repair and maintenance manual for the 1914 Stutz "Bearcat" six-cylinder engine might be a better example of a book best self-published.

In any case, rejection rates in legitimate publishing are very high. This is true. This is because the number of mediocre-to-unreadable books is very large. While I doubt that the rejection rate is as high as 99.5% (I think it's actually around 98%) here's the take-home lesson: if you can produce two consecutive pages of grammatical English with standard spelling, you're already in the top 10%. Remember, people, there, their, and they're are three different words with three different meanings.

If you have a compelling story compellingly told, you're in the top 1% and I promise you that your book will sell.

Every publisher out there knows that Tom Clancy, John Grisham, and Stephen King won't live forever. And they know that the next King, Grisham, and Clancy are in the slush heap.

This is a game of skill, not a game of chance.

11-23-2003, 01:10 AM
Marky wrote: "Family history, as a disqualifier in traditional publishing is also open to debate. I wrote ... a biography of ... my ancestor ... He's in all of the history books, yet publishers see this as too narrow a focus for a market."

Maybe you stopped sending the ms. around too soon. A friend wrote the story of her father, a muckraking newspaper editor who was murdered by gangsters connected to the corrupt state government (Minnesota) he'd been investigating. She finally found a publisher, the U. of Minn. Press.

11-23-2003, 01:23 AM
John Wiley published "John Hancock" and it sold 3500 copies. That's what I was up against. My story is told in the same fashion as "Mornings on Horseback" and "John Adams." But not all biographies have presidents as the focus. Or should have to.

This is not a children's book or a restore a "Vincent Black Shadow how-to," not that there's anything wrong with that. My manuscript is clear-eyed and skillfully well-written and that comes from the aquisitions editor at NYU Press. It's the market that's the problem. National houses say it's a local story. Local ones say it's not national.

And who said I stopped sending it out? I've had at least ten U. Presses turn it down crying poverty. I needed a subsidy grant from the state to interest Tilbury House in Gardiner, Maine and that's where he was from and the story took place.

One editor at U of NE Press in Hanover you-know-where thought it was fiction.

With 350 endnotes? Please.

I'm still submitting.

11-23-2003, 01:38 AM
One more note on the small history publisher in Bowie, MD, Heritage Books. They're actually discouraging me from going with them although they've accepted it. While the royalty regime is good, the cover prices are not. $10 per 100 pp. as a rule and more. That's not a good indicator of potential sales, but a reality nonetheless. Higginson a Salem, MA reprint POD is just that, a POD-based operation with a royalty of 10% on the net; $27.95 for a trade paperback. I'm not doing that.

11-23-2003, 01:47 AM
Here is a book people can buy on this self publishing subject. The lucky bastard.

click here to see (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1568600887/qid=1069526574/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/002-0935241-9308054)

Oh, pick up my poetry book while you're at it, so when you get pissed off you can read something that will take you away from the hassels of what life sometimes gives us.

11-23-2003, 03:46 AM

I'm familiar with the micropublisher Metropolis Ink, and disagree with your statement that MI has "exactly" the same business model as PA.

It doesn't. Even if MI is also a POD.

If you explore the MI site, www.metropolisink.com, you'll see, in contrast to PA, MI SUBMISSONS ARE NOW CLOSED. They don't rely on a huge stable of ever-increasing authors to make the big bucks.

I know the manuscripts are edited at MI. (Not just copyedited, either)

If you were to order an MI title, you'd see the production is also superior. Nice fonts, margins, paper quality...

In addition, (what I've heard about) the MI contract differs in significant ways from (what I've heard about) the PA contract. (copyright, length of contract, royalties and so on...)

As for average sales of 75 books for each title at MI, I won't argue with you. It could well be true!

11-23-2003, 04:05 AM
I'm not talking about self-publishing at all. I'm talking about small (and large) traditional publishers that do what I want done with my work. Sell it. PODs or any permutation of that plan don't and won't ever no matter who makes the claim and why.

XThe NavigatorX
11-23-2003, 05:10 AM
If you were to order an MI title, you'd see the production is also superior. Nice fonts, margins, paper quality...

If I was to order a MI title, I'd see it was the exact same paper quality of a PA title, since they both use Lightning Source to print their books. Nothing wrong with that, however. Lots and lots use LS for their books.

11-23-2003, 05:13 AM
Thanks to the posters (James and others) who answered my questions. I feel sorry for any writers who get themselves rooked into contracts that are horrible. (PA has a seven year hold on the work)?!

11-23-2003, 07:37 AM
Yes, they do. That's the catch as compared with a POD-based vanity.

James D Macdonald
11-23-2003, 11:30 AM
Here's why I say that MI has the same business model at PA:

From MI's FAQ (<a href="http://www.metropolisink.com/faq.htm" target="_new">www.metropolisink.com/faq.htm</a>):

Are you a vanity publisher? No. There is no charge to the authors, and they are not required to purchase any books. However, we believe that an author that is committed to success will naturally expect to purchase many copies for promotional distribution.

James D Macdonald
11-23-2003, 11:33 AM
<a href="http://scrivenerserror.blogspot.com/2003_11_01_scrivenerserror_archive.html#1069518546 99130019" target="_new">A lawyer looks at Author's Market.</a>

XThe NavigatorX
11-23-2003, 12:00 PM
PA owns Preditorsandeditors.com? That's hysterical.

James D Macdonald
11-23-2003, 10:18 PM
I have to laugh when they recommend the National Writers Union (I'm sure it's because some PA authors are NWU members). You don't have to have published anything at all to join the NWU, let alone published it with a legitimate publisher. The only thing you really need to write is a check.

11-23-2003, 10:44 PM
Here's the full context of a Email Letter from Mr. Larry Clopper, PublishAmerica, Inc.

<PRE>From: larryc@netcrafters.net
To: Dave Kuzminski
Subject: PublishAmerica, Inc.
Date: Friday, November 03, 2000 6:04 PM

Dear Mr. Kuzminski,

You have posted information concerning PublishAmerica, Inc.,
publicly on your site. The information that you have posted
is a very small percentage of the whole picture of what
would generally be regarded as "recommended" or "not
recommended" for an author.

Of that small percentage, what you have posted is, by any
reasonable standards, inaccurate, incongruous, incomplete,
and therefore quite misleading.

I would like to entreat you to take this opportunity to
remedy the situation now, as we have responsibilities to our
employees, authors, and the industry in general to protect
our reputation.

We cannot rest easy until your error is corrected, and will
take significant action if necessary, including using the
domains that PublishAmerica, Inc. owns, as listed below, to
actively make our grievances public.

www.preditorsandeditors.com (http://www.preditorsandeditors.com)
www.preditorsandeditors.org (http://www.preditorsandeditors.org)
www.predatorsandeditors.com (http://www.predatorsandeditors.com)
www.predatorsandeditors.org (http://www.predatorsandeditors.org)

Thank you for your consideration.

- larry clopper, PublishAmerica, Inc.

As you can see, they tried to cover several variations just to do their best at blocking P&E. By the way, in another communication, they actually wanted me to not only remove the not recommended, but give them a recommended rating as well.

11-23-2003, 10:55 PM
This is Trojan Horse tactic by PA, more sucker bait that in the world of advertising is legitimate. Just not ethical. What gets me is the way others copy the tactic, then a defender shows up lauding the new company. It seems endless.

At another site I got into a tiff with the resident expert and was accused of libel. Further investigation revealed the expert was POD published by companies who charged $350. He also operated an editing service. No wonder he was touchy about POD-based models and claimed PA was traditional. Many are when it's all they've been able to do.

James D Macdonald
11-23-2003, 11:42 PM
Let's say, just for the sake of argument, that 20 publishing powerhouses really do account for 93% of all book sales.

What that means to you, as a writer, is that it would be in your best interest to make sure your book is published with one of them.

What it also means is that those publishers are in need of a whole lot of material. Every one of them knows that James Patterson and Danielle Steele won't live forever. When you combine that with the observable fact that every one of them prints previously-unpublished, first-time authors....


Look at the Romance Writers of America's definition of a publisher:

A RITA-eligible publisher is defined as a non-subsidy, non-vanity publisher that has released books on a regular basis via national distribution for a minimum of one year and has sold a minimum of 1,500 hardcover/trade paperback copies or 5,000 copies of any other format of a single fiction book or a novella or collection of novellas in book form.</blockquote>

Their list of publishers is <a href="http://www.rwanational.org/pub_links.stm" target="_new">here</a>. You'll find around seventy publishers on the list. If a publisher can't sell 1,500 hardback/trade or 5,000 mass market copies of some title, why are you even considering talking to them?

I will note briefly that PublishAmerica is not on RWA's list of publishers.

11-24-2003, 12:57 AM
None of those links lead to anything except the dead website office.

11-24-2003, 05:10 AM
Seems one of their authors over at publishedauthors.net left an advertisement on P&E's bulletin board at cybling.hypermart.net/boa.../1139.html (http://cybling.hypermart.net/boards/bflymessages/1139.html)

11-25-2003, 11:05 PM
Here's the topic where the PublishAmerica authors are discussing the Author's Market. www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/1533.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/1533.htm)

11-25-2003, 11:20 PM
No doubt they'll be chiming in with an explanation that will say something like those other authors weren't published by PA becasue you know, they reject 80% and these are rejected PA authors. It will be funny.

11-26-2003, 12:59 AM
In the PublishAmerica forum, some of their writers feel stung regarding the comments expressed at Author's Market.

Ah well, what should PublishAmerica care if they lose those authors? It's only six percent of the market. They'll just have to suffer by recycling the olive in their martinis.

11-26-2003, 01:49 AM
They are. Some are predicting PA's demise and while I hope for it and have lit some tinder, I see no demise impending quite yet. However, this is quite a bomb they're throwing at the critics and when the reporters at national papers come calling, that won't bode well for Meiners and his henchmen, since we know who they've used for expert sources in the past.

11-26-2003, 05:07 AM
I'm sad for PA. A few weeks ago, I received an e-mail from them regarding their up and coming "free websites for authors". Silly me, I thought, "well, this is nice, that they are doing this for their authors". I knew very well there was something in it for them, as it could result in increased sales, thus more money for them, but I never even dreamed they would use it as a pathetic means to make a statement.

I'm not sure why they feel the need to post statements regarding not trusting "loudmouth" watchdogs and "author advocates" nor why they are ragging on science fiction/fantasy writers. I mean where did it come from and where does it fit into presenting their authors professionally? Obviously, it is their attempt to stand up against sites such as this, but as I said, their attempt looks sad and pathetic. I feel just as bad for the author of the author's market site as I do for the author of the responses to angry e-mails and questions regarding bookstore placement on their message board. It's as though a five year old is answering, and I find it sad.


11-26-2003, 12:26 PM
Darbyj, PA is taking cheap shots at SF & fantasy writers who act as watchdogs because Popper20, one of PA's enforcer-sockpuppets, got his head handed to him on one of the threads here. Many of the people responsible for doing that were SF professionals, most notably Victoria Strauss and Jim Macdonald, who are indeed perennial watchdogs where publishing scams are concerned.

11-26-2003, 04:03 PM
I'd venture to say that EVERY "watchdog" in the industry has done their best to warn writers about PA. But the nasty little sci-fi/Star Trek comments were obviously directed at Victoria and Ann. Amazing that they would offend so many of their authors (who they care so much about!-- ha!) just to spite their critics.

PA horrifies me. And to respond to that hilarious "the watchdogs have an agenda-- they want to be the elite people and keep you out of the club" shtick...

If you write as a hobby and know you can't compete with professional authors, but just want to have a book of your own, go with a POD. If you are publishing a niche book with a small potential audience and can't interest university presses or small publishers, think about POD/self-publishing. If you are publishing your family history just for posterity's sake, or just want to make something for friends and family, fine.

But if you are a serious author, and you actually want to make decent sales, run far away from PA and other such vanity presses, no matter what they call themselves. Keep honing your skills. Take writing classes, read books, write, write, write. Get so good that publishers CAN'T resist you!

Does PA think its authors are really so stupid that they'll believe those of us who take the time to run writers' sites, track scams, run boards like this, etc. are doing all of this in a blind panic because we're worried that PA authors might be so good that they'll knock us right out of the marketplace?

The truth is that if we were trying to have some kind of elite club, we'd *encourage* everyone to go to vanity presses, because then we'd know that their books would suffer from poor editing, overpricing, and next-to-no bookstore placement. Therefore, ours would continue to stand out.

Instead, what we're asking is that writers get into this with their eyes open. If you know you can't compete and know what you're getting with a vanity press, do whatever you like. But if you're serious about your craft, want to reach an audience, and so on, please think twice. Read that crazy authorsmarket site and decide if you really want to be involved with this kind of a "publisher."

11-26-2003, 11:17 PM
Besides the fact that PA is using the site as a way to stick their tongues out at the watchdogs of the writing world, and that they are weaving all Sci Fi/Fantasy writers into a lump of poor, plagiarizing authors :\ , I particularly like when they suggest that writers submit to the big houses and then "see ya in two years". Translation, "We know your book isn't good enough for the big houses. You'll be back, and then we'll be here to 'take a chance' on your work."

Wow. What a statement. Do the PA authors realize what the site is saying?

A tad bit unprofessional for me. Had this site been around two years ago...


James D Macdonald
11-26-2003, 11:34 PM
The "two years" thing is more like what it takes from submitting your manuscript until the book appears on the shelves in finished form with a traditional publisher (though they can be fast off the mark with a hot topic or a timely work, see the Jessica Lynch book for an example).

Rejection times are usually measured in months, not years.

I'd like to suggest that folks follow PA's advice, and trust their own eyes.

Go to a major bookstore.

Walk past the tables down front. Go to the New Releases shelf. See how many titles are by people who are famous for anything other than writing books. Remind yourself that every one of them came out of the slush pile once.

See how many are from major houses, and are by first-time novelists. Subtract the ones who are celebrities. See how many remain. Okay, as you see, first-time novelists are being published by major houses. You've seen for yourself.

Now go to the regular shelves. Take a section and look at all the printing dates. Gee ... a whole bunch have been on the shelf a lot longer than two months, haven't they? Some of them have been in print and available for years. So that demolishes the "only get two months before they're returned and destroyed and out of print" myth that PA likes to push. You've seen for yourself. Don't believe me, trust your own eyes.

Now ... of all those books you looked at, how many were published by PA? Bet you it's "none." Don't believe me... trust your own eyes.

Look, there are lots of problems and indignities that traditionally published writers face. But here's where you should trust me: The worst day they have is still better than the best day a PA author has.

12-02-2003, 02:10 AM
Did PublishAmerica secure permission to use the photos of those celebrities in the Author's Market web site? I couldn't help but notice there were no attributions for the sources of the photos.

Also, one of their writers certainly has courage. In the interest of public information, I'll post that author's comments here before they disappear from that site.

12/01/2003 12:27:23
Subject: Are You Nuts?

What is this? Up until the creation of this "Author's Market" thing, I was mostly satisfied with my experience with PublishAmerica ... money is paid on time and all parts of the contract are honored.

But this? As a PA author whose PA title is a collection of short horror, fantasy and science fiction, I find your attacks on this genre disgusting and demeaning to about 400 of your own authors.

If this is how you really feel about writers of fantastical fiction, I will be very glad when my contract expires and my book can be withdrawn.

For anyone who reads this before it's deleted, don't believe the message presented about lack of quality or originality in fantasy fiction. Also don't believe you CAN'T get a contract with a traditional off-set publisher because you can and I know people who have. I chose PA for my book for very specific reasons that worked for me. Until now.

Steven E. Wedel

FM St George
12-02-2003, 03:31 AM
*stands up and applauds*

let's hear it for the boy!

good for him...

12-02-2003, 04:33 AM
Boy, that one sure disappeared fast.

- Victoria
Writer Beware
www.writerbeware.com/ (http://www.writerbeware.com/)

XThe NavigatorX
12-02-2003, 05:32 AM
Imagine what would've happened if Dave and Victoria were romance novelists.

12-02-2003, 07:42 AM
This one might also disappear sometime soon since it questions their authority. I quote it here for the benefit of other writers. Also, the one above is also from the same forum. It's at www.authorsmarket.net (http://www.authorsmarket.net) :

12/01/2003 19:24:09
Subject: Why?

does this discussion board for unpublished authors ask for a book title when registering?

12-02-2003, 08:52 AM
I can tell you why. Because they want to make sure only PA authors can post. I attempted to register using one of my "anonymous" e-mail addresses, with a made-up book title. I never got the promised e-mail with the password.

The discussion at AuthorsMarket is growing. There's at least one ringer over there now.

- Victoria
Writer Beware
www.writerbeware.com/ (http://www.writerbeware.com/)

12-02-2003, 09:28 AM
It would be interesting to learn whether any of those celebrities gave permission for their likenesses to be used on the Author's Market site. Anyone know where to ask?

James D Macdonald
12-02-2003, 11:43 AM
I looked a little bit ago --

Of the four authors who were so very happy with PA, three had their books come out in November 2003, the fourth hasn't had her book come out yet, but has already submitted her second novel. (Let me look into my crystal ball.... yes! Good news! Your book will be accepted!)

I hope they're as happy a year from now after they've found that they can't get their books reviewed by anywhere higher than the Midwest Book Review, that even their family and friends will hesitate due to the cover price, that bookstores will only stock the book if they go in person and get down on their knees to beg, and that even after making terrific efforts they'll still have sold under a hundred copies.

12-02-2003, 09:53 PM
Yes, but remember...even authors published by "the big guys" have to self-promote!

:evil (using this as a symbol of heavy sarcasm)

- Victoria
www.writerbeware.com (http://www.writerbeware.com)
www.victoriastrauss.com (http://www.victoriastrauss.com)

12-03-2003, 12:40 AM
Well, as predicted those other two comments are now gone from the Author's Market forum. Judging by the following quote from there, it looks like not everyone using it understands how that forum is supposed to work:


12/02/2003 09:28:18

Hey, what happened to the other two threads?

James D Macdonald
12-03-2003, 01:09 AM
It's a Happy News Only kinda board.

Did someone snag copies before it all went away?

Hey, Dave -- you're published! Have you got your account at Author's Market yet?

12-03-2003, 01:35 AM
I decided to utilzie PA as a free vanity press. I have submitted a work that I think would be a challenge commercially but I still want a copy of. Thus, submit to PA, get a free copy or two at no cost to me. I have no intent of marketing that work it is a little complex for tha average reader. Who said PA had no value? Works for me in that application.

James D Macdonald
12-03-2003, 02:03 AM
I wonder if Cora Morace, author of Cocodrie, remembered to subtract cost of goods sold from the $500 that she cleared selling her book in the last month.

12-03-2003, 02:29 AM
I haven't applied for entry at the Author's Market. I might, however.

Regarding those messages that disappeared from the Author's Market, I posted those in previous postings in this topic.

James D Macdonald
12-03-2003, 04:04 AM
There were a whole lot more messages last night, Dave, and outside of the one remaining thread they weren't complimentary at all to PA. Dissention in the ranks? More than five dissatisfied PA writers? Who knows?

12-03-2003, 06:40 AM
Nope, I didn't catch any others. Contrary to what some folks might state, I don't spend all my time monitoring PublishAmerica. However, the authors of those comments are welcome to forward their remarks to me at P&E or to post those in P&E's bulletin board at cybling.hypermart.net/boards/bfly.html (http://cybling.hypermart.net/boards/bfly.html) .

12-03-2003, 09:47 PM
Here's the kind of post that won't get pulled on the PA produced message boards taken from the only surviving thread on the Author's Market board:

"Still... I guess PA is probably a name I can boast about to people. Not like if they were a vanity publisher or something and people'd find out and think I'd been conned :o ). If I just printed stuff myself people might think I'd been silly. "

How I wish I could warn this person, but would they get to read it before I was yanked?


12-04-2003, 12:50 AM
I wonder how long it will be until someone at the Author's Market forum at www.authorsmarket.net/cgi...rd/view.pl (http://www.authorsmarket.net/cgi-bin/board/view.pl) points out that none of the "Experts" they warned against have posted any opinions?

12-04-2003, 03:10 AM
Mr. Wedel has posted again at Author's Market forum and here is his post along with some others including a response from the management:


12/03/2003 14:11:48
Subject: Fantasy authors

This is the second time I've posted this message, as it was promptly deleted the first time.

What is this? Up until the creation of this "Author's Market" thing, I was mostly satisfied with my experience with PublishAmerica ... money is paid on time and all parts of the contract are honored.

But this? As a PA author whose PA title is a collection of short horror, fantasy and science fiction, I find your attacks on this genre disgusting and demeaning to about 400 of your own authors.

If this is how you really feel about writers of fantastical fiction, I will be very glad when my contact expires and my book can be withdrawn.

For anyone who reads this before it's deleted, don't believe the message presented about lack of quality or originality in fantasy fiction. Also don't believe you CAN'T get a contract with a traditional off-set publisher because you can and I know people who have. I chose PA for my book for very specific reasons that worked for me. Until now.

Steven E. Wedel


12/03/2003 14:26:03
RE: Fantasy authors

I'm a science fiction, fantasy, and horror writer. I'm also a PA author and all I can say about this site is "you've got to be kidding!" I'm truly disappointed.

Antonietta Wallace


12/03/2003 14:40:19
RE: Fantasy authors

Alright, folks. We're adjusting the text to reflect reality. It was written by a overzealous staffer who came to the defense of all of you and who, in doing so, went a little overboard. That happens sometimes. Expect a changed wording soon.

12-04-2003, 04:32 AM
>> Alright, folks. We're adjusting the text to reflect reality. It was written by a overzealous staffer who came to the defense of all of you and who, in doing so, went a little overboard.<<

:rollin :rollin :rollin

- Victoria
www.writerbeware.com/ (http://www.writerbeware.com/)
www.victoriastrauss.com/ (http://www.victoriastrauss.com/)

FM St George
12-04-2003, 04:36 AM
I don't know what's scarier - the fact that PA is somehow admitting they have nutcases on their staff that blurt out crap like this or the fact that they don't see it as much of a problem...

it's harder and harder to even conceive PA as having more than two people on staff that seem to drink coffee all day, toss manuscripts into the "automatically accepted" bin and then edit while drinking a pint or four... if they get that far!

and, please... if anyone needs defending, keep far far away from this particular "staff member"!

12-04-2003, 04:41 AM

12/03/2003 15:31:01
RE: Fantasy authors

Okay, that's really nice that the text is being changed, but I still have some questions.

1 - why were threads and posts removed from the site? if, as you claim, the staffer was overzealous, weren't all the cries of outrage justified? You just said so yourself.

2 - why does a PA staff member feel the need to 'come to the defense' of anyone? And, if this entire site was supposed to be about defending PA authors against other people, why it is set up to look like a website that is an educational/informational website about writing in general and PA in specific? Why not just let it be what it is - PA's defense against people who put down PA?

3 - Isn't this just another author's advocate site, then?

FM St George
12-04-2003, 05:50 AM
OMG... someone go save this man and tell him to come here before he gets destroyed by the PA machine!


that's going to stay up about as long as it takes for me to toss some cat treats down on the ground...

(two large cats - you do the math!)

but he's got a pair of big ones, that's fer sure...

huzzah to him!

12-04-2003, 06:29 AM

12/03/2003 17:33:03
RE: Fantasy authors

I always wonder about people who say something on a website and then change their minds.

Either what they wrote first off was what they believe -- in which case they're changing it to something they don't believe, and will go on not believing it but mouth something more PC. Maybe because PA're actually publishing people who write that stuff and making money off them while thinking bad things about their work.

Or it wasn't what they believed in the first place, which means they just said it to be mean and upset someone. And that means I can't trust that other stuff they're saying isn't also to make themselves look good and other people look bad.

So I get a choice between PA being dishonest or spiteful, or both.

"It was written by a overzealous staffer who came to the defense of all of you and who, in doing so, went a little overboard. That happens sometimes."

Kind of worried that no one responsible checked the work -- because that would mean the management's not managing. And saying it happens sometimes makes it sounds like this isn't the first time. Is that why these other authors would be saying stuff about PA? Because PA tells lies about them?

And PA authors need defending? If this thing is as good as everyone says why do they need defending from anyone? Why do people who work for the company think they need defending from other writers? Most writers I've met are nice people who just want to write and have people enjoy their work -- or make a few quid from it. What makes PA authors such a target?

I was thinking the deal looked okay, but maybe the people running it aren't so nice as the 'way cool' thread made them sound.


12/03/2003 17:38:39
RE: Fantasy authors

Oh stop the whining already, woman. You're not even a PublishAmerica author, so what do you care? You're only here to cause trouble, using four different aliases plus a hidden agenda, so knock it off!

Sheryl Nantus

12/03/2003 18:05:57
RE: Fantasy authors

well, THAT'S an adult response...

Lisa Y

12/03/2003 18:16:37
RE: Fantasy authors

Dear demonwriter:

As a mystery writer, I have to ask, what are your other aliases? Are you, indeed, a woman? Do you have a hidden agenda? If so, what is it?

I wave my fantasy wand and unveil you, oh hidden one. Be revealed! All 4 parts of you.

Lisa Y
Well, I have to admit this appears to be an open board that PublishAmerica is sponsoring. I think I will see if they'll accept me into their forum.

12-04-2003, 06:40 AM
Now we'll find out if they're truly open. If so, it will be one of the more responsible and professional actions they've taken to date.

James D Macdonald
12-04-2003, 06:42 AM
Dear friends, in re the Insane Overenthusiastic Employee theory, look at this:

<a href="http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/1533.htm" target="_new">www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/1533.htm


Subject: The truth about publishing, finally

www.authorsmarket.net, a tell-it-like-it-is site! I just stumbled upon it, had never seen it before. Looks like it is another PA service. Anyone else who knows about it? It has lots of good stuff.


Astoundingly, "Bellman" has never posted before, or since, on the PA messageboards.

Even more astoundingly, he or she found authorsmarket.net before it was even listed by Google, on its very first day "live" on the 'net.

Astounding, no? A "tell-it-like-it-is site!"

How do you suppose "Bellman" stumbled on the place?

I don't suppose "Bellman" expected the outrage from PA authors, and the derision from everyone else, that this "tell-it-like-it-is site" got.

I guess the insane overenthusiastic employee has been located.

12-04-2003, 07:00 AM
I wonder if "Bellman" is the first name of "b. smith" who posted in the "I am livid!" topic some months before?

12-04-2003, 07:24 AM
Looks like that topic at Author's Market is now inoperative. It comes up as a 404. I noticed they changed the title to it as well.

Something tells me this bodes poorly for my Author's Market forum application. At least I tried to offer PublishAmerica and their authors an opportunity to talk directly with me. I even applied under my real name.

12-04-2003, 08:07 AM
I posted it elsewhere, but thought the "wizzard" comment was amusing. Is that a necromancer with a poor bladder?

Yes, insulting and uninformed were the slightest of things said on that page about sci-fi or fant writers. I've always held my tongue about such attitudes, but dang, that was pretty stupid. If it was an "over zealous staffer" they should be taken to the woodshed.

A serious organization polices itself better and does not sink to such amateurish antics.

BTW David, always meant to tell you, FIGHT EVIL FOR FOOD is a great title. :) Brings many thoughts to mind, so cheers to ya for thinking of it.

12-04-2003, 10:32 AM
Well, it looks like the administration over at Author's Market is stomping out fires. I just visited there and discovered that three of the four topics in one category are inoperative while the remaining one is still working. I strongly suspect that admin didn't like the content of those others. Anyway, I will check my email regularly to see if they have both the courage and professionalism to issue me a password so that I might converse within their forum.

Shrews, thanks. I likewise thought Will Fight Evil For Food worked well for that book. Of course, it's not the kind of book that PublishAmerica would approve of. After all, one of the things it features is vampires working as lingerie models and living in (gasp!) a nudist resort, although that's not the main plot or characters. However, that means there's nudity in the book and you know we can't expose good people to that. I mean, the next thing you know, they'll learn how to do those nasty things and produce children! They might even like it and have more than one! Then there'll be a need for more children's writers. Next thing you know, they'll be reading YA and we can't have that. I mean, what would the neighbors think?

12-04-2003, 08:24 PM
Dave, PA published a book about Eric Edwards, porno actor/ director.
Linda Alexander wrote it.
www.inthelibraryreview.co...Linda.html (http://www.inthelibraryreview.com/AlexanderLinda.html)


12-05-2003, 05:59 AM
Let's not forget the soon-to-be-classic "Erotic Fantasies for Romantic Couples", available now from the PA online bookstore...

PA bashed Dave for the same reason they bashed sci-fi and fantasy authors...both times, they ended up looking like fools...

just my two cents...


James D Macdonald
12-05-2003, 11:35 AM
I could be wrong, but I think DORTHY FROM KANSAS MEETS THE WIZARD OF X is a reprint of a previous small-press publication.

As niche non-fiction, it's squarely in the right demographic for self-publication.

I wonder how it compares with RAW TALENT, a non-fiction by porno actor/director Jerry Butler?

12-05-2003, 10:05 PM
I really had hoped that PublishAmerica would prove to writers everywhere that they were truly capable of a two-way public dialogue. However, they've not provided me with a password for that to occur.

Unfortunately, they've also taken down all the criticism and failed to correct the text they said they would change which proves I was too optimistic about PublishAmerica showing some professionalism. Instead, it's merely another form of their baiting in their quest to become masters.

aka eraser
12-05-2003, 11:23 PM
Dave, surely you're not surprised? ;)

12-05-2003, 11:52 PM
No, I'm not surprised, but I still remain optimistic about people, including those at PublishAmerica, even though it means risking further disappointment.

12-06-2003, 09:25 AM
Reminds me of that old adage...fool me once, shame on you...fool me twice...

04-26-2004, 03:48 AM
Why are so many of us wasting so much time and bandwidth agreeing [endlessly] that PA is a joke? There are dozens of PODs and vanity presses like PA.

The thread has degenerated from a useful "scam buster" to posts making fun of the deluded PA wannabes. I've had enough, haven't you?

04-26-2004, 08:02 PM
It's been the occasion for discussing and explaining a great many useful publishing issues -- and, alas, looks likely to continue generating these opportunities.

If it's time to end the PA thread, the thread will end. If it isn't, you can't kill it.

04-26-2004, 08:11 PM
I know I can't "kill" it. I'm suggesting it's degenerated into schadenfreude and making fun of the losers at PA.

04-26-2004, 11:32 PM
Jenna could close the topic, and block any new attempts to restart the topic. It depends on how she feels about it.

04-26-2004, 11:35 PM
Just email Jenna and ask her to close the thread.

04-27-2004, 01:07 AM
I'm not closing threads or asking others to close them. Merely suggesting that we'reexhausted the subject of PA.

04-27-2004, 09:11 AM
I deny that I have ever made fun of the writers at PA. I wouldn't. I feel terribly sorry for them. I feel indignant on their behalf. At most, I occasionally feel exasperated at what can look like their willingness to be deceived.

Ed Williams 3
04-27-2004, 09:19 AM
...that if you've had enough of the thread, don't read it. Five hundred plus posts would indicate that there is a considerable amount of interest in the subject, and I personally see no reason as to why the thread should be closed. Each to their own....

06-07-2004, 12:19 AM
Could we give all the PA people their own thread? It's a fairly specific subject area, now, and would probably be better off on its own than in here.

06-07-2004, 10:10 AM
at the top of this board it's all explained: (there already is a PA exclusive thread...until you started this one, ha.)


Just a quick note: Please don't start any new topics about Publish America. We have many, many threads here already about PA. If you have something new to add, please just add it to an already-existing thread instead of starting a new topic. I'm afraid the other warnings are getting lost and I'd rather not have this entire board be about PA. Therefore, I'm closing down all but two PA threads. Please feel free to repost your messages or continue the discussions on the open threads.


[edited to draw attention to the subject line]
Jenna Glatzer
Absolute Write
Author of Words You Thought You Knew-- just released!

06-09-2004, 12:13 PM
Hello Authors,

I know how challenging it can be to market your book when you are self-published, a author with a print-on-demand book, or work with a small press, because I co-wrote a book entitled The Package and fall in one of these categories. This is the reason I decided to open a bookstore called Opportunity Books that will cater to the needs of these types of authors.

If you are from Michigan and are interested in signing at my store, please respond to my post.

Thank you.

Nea Williams

06-10-2004, 05:55 AM
why is this in 'background check'?... is the poster casting aspersions on his/her own business???

06-10-2004, 09:33 AM
No Mammamaia,

This is not a background check, nor am I casting aspersions. LOL, but with so many of you PA authors complaining about this publisher, that now your complaints are limited to the already existing threads, I just wanted to would offer any author who is interested in putting their book on a shelf without paying for it, or conduct a signing without losing a percentage and more the chance that other authors are getting.

That's all and btw love that quote.


Betty W01
06-10-2004, 07:29 PM
And if you mean, as I suspect you did, we should give the PA folks their own BOARD....

nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!:head :bang

But that's just my own opinion. You could always ask Jenna...

(But wait - hmmm. All of that "storm un drang" on one board, so those of us who are in no way interested - a vast and growing crowd - could just avoid ever going there... hmmm. You may have something...)

06-11-2004, 12:14 AM
i'm not sure i got all that you meant to say, 'cause your post reads like some words got left out somehow:shrug ... but i think i get that you are offering shelf space in michigan to self-published authors... for which i applaud you!:clap ...

fyi, i'm not a pa author and am not complaining about them... i'm just a writing mentor... and i'm super glad that you like my gandhi quote!:thumbs

love and hugs, maia

James D Macdonald
06-11-2004, 12:31 AM
Opportunity, is this a bookstore that already exists, or are you planning to found it?

06-11-2004, 12:57 AM
I'm curious about how such a book store intends to make enough of a profit to remain in business when the prices of many of the books, in particular those from PA, are too high priced to begin with.

Who's going to pay the postage to get those books to the store's shelves? Add on a profit margin to pay for the store's rent and upkeep as well as salaries and other expenses and the whole prospect becomes a bit difficult to envision as realistic.

Is the store's proposed locale that well suited to high book sales? If so, won't it be competing head to head with some very large chains? I can't imagine them giving up a demographic such as that without a fight.

06-11-2004, 01:07 AM
Another fellow wants to open a store in Washington. I'm surprised Michelle has not been banned for asking intelligent questions.

Proposed Book Store (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/4358.htm)

06-12-2004, 05:59 AM
"I'm surprised Michelle has not been banned for asking intelligent questions."

I imagine it's only a matter of time, to be honest...

As far as the bookstore idea, I wish them well...
I have to wonder whether an author will make any money, even with a 70/30 split, when you take into consideration that the author will have to pay for shipping (and for any unsold, return shipping)...not to mention, pay for shipping when ordering their books from PA (so even if they receive a 40% discount on their purchase from PA, there's little left at the end of the day)...whew!

Big Daddy West

06-15-2004, 09:34 AM
James MacDonald,

To answer your question this store will open in August, 2004 and yes I am the founder of it.

And to the rest of you,

Why are you concern about the profit that this store will make? Are an author that lives in Michigan? If so then let me know, but otherwise to tell you my business plans would be crazy don't you think.

James D Macdonald
06-15-2004, 10:00 AM
Thanks, Opportunity.

I look forward to hearing about your adventures.

06-16-2004, 06:01 AM
I suppose it may concern them because bad things tend to happen to books that are already on the shelves, or in cartons in the back room, when a bookstore goes out of business.

06-16-2004, 06:50 AM
This is the web. When was it ever a problem for anyone to ignore things that don't interest them? Relief is never more than a click away.

More to the point, discussions of PA inevitably loop in and out of related subjects in which there's a strong general interest. That's one of the things that keeps PA threads going. If those discussions were exiled to another board, you'd either get people who want to follow them migrating away from this board, or you'd get people who've stayed here continuing to discuss PA here anyway.

The other reason PA keeps coming up in the "Background Check" board, i.e. the scams board, is that right now they're the biggest, slickest, most successful, and most aggressive publishing-oriented con game going. When it comes to vanity publishing scams, PA hasn't just kicked things up a notch; they've kicked things up by an order of magnitude. Of course they get discussed a lot.

The Background Board gets a constant trickle of people coming in to ask about PA, or to say thank you for the warning, or to get themselves oriented because they've just been booted off the PA board. If you apply the fairly reliable online rule of thumb that says that for every person who says anything, there are nine or ten more who are silently following the conversation, you can start to see that this board is racking up a lot of good and helpful deeds. I honestly think it's a significant resource for that segment of the writing community.

What's a little boredom, weighed against an unfading crown in heaven?

Betty W01
06-17-2004, 02:03 AM
Am I allowed to gag if I do it quietly?


06-17-2004, 02:34 AM
If PA were not still in business, there would be no need to continue discussing it. The truth is, though, that talking about PA is not "beating a dead horse", because PA is far from dead. It is still alive and well and wooing/signing more writers everyday. The only way those writers are ever going to be able to make an informed decision is if the PA threads on messageboards are kept alive and in a prominent place. PA isn't past tense.

Yes, it gets old, but only to those of us who have been hearing about/involved in it for the last several years. However, just imagine that writer who has finished her manuscript and has finally gotten the nerve to submit it. If it weren't for places like this, she would see PA as any other traditional publishing company, only better because she doesn't have to wait months for an answer. Even if she submits to every publishing house in the world and PA, she'll hear from PA first and she'll be ecstatic that someone accepted it and she is going to be published. Believe me, I know this from experience. I was that writer. I signed with PA because I had no idea there were companies like them out there. I've learned a lot since then because of places like this. So, when I get really sick of hearing about PA, which I do, I just try to picture myself the day I sent my manuscript off, the day I got my acceptance e-mail, etc. and I try to be glad that now it's much easier for writers to find the information they need to make the PA decision.

Just my thoughts on it and now, I'm going back to hide.:D

James D Macdonald
06-17-2004, 09:15 PM
To the tune of "Jolene" (Dolly Parton):

I'm begging of you please give back my book
It's not in stores no matter where I look.

Your homepage is the site of sites
With promises of 'Up in Lights'
And bookstore signings nearly every day,
You say you aren't a vanity,
Which I believed, oh silly me!
I thought you were traditional, PA.

But no one will review my tome
From Sarasota up to Nome,
And bookstore owners hope I'll go away;
My mom and dad both bought a case
Now they won't look me in the face,
You don't know what you did to me, PA.

I'm begging of you please give back my book
It's not in stores no matter where I look.

I could have really pubbed my work
But now I feel just like a jerk,
The Info Center led me all astray.
I earned nine cents in royalties;
I'm asking you now, pretty please,
Give me the rights back to my book, PA.

I'm begging of you please give back my book
It's not in stores no matter where I look.

Betty W01
06-17-2004, 09:22 PM
The next American Idol, folks.......... JAMES D. MACDONALD!!


Now appearing on a bookshelf near you...


Great job, Jim. If you ever get tired of writing novels, you may have a future in country music.

06-17-2004, 09:56 PM
I have the rights back to my book, I never bought a single copy of my book and only sold a few to people I couldn't warn before they "pre-ordered" it. By the time it was printed, I had already wisened up a bit.

Nice song, though.

AC Crispin
06-18-2004, 10:13 AM
...of Jim standing there up on stage, looking just like himself except he's wearing a very TIGHT low-cut sweater and has enormous bazooms!

He's singing in a little girl voice, crooning into the mike, "PA...PA...PA...PA!"


<runs and hides>

I'm gonna have nightmares!

-Ann C. Crispin

Ed Williams 3
06-18-2004, 05:20 PM
...they gave Elvis a hard time in the beginning, too, and he ended up the King of Rock 'n' Roll....

James D Macdonald
06-18-2004, 10:08 PM
It would be too easy to sing "You Ain't Nothin' But A Hound Dog" right now....

Wouldn't even have to change the lyrics.

06-19-2004, 08:12 AM
I got friends in low places.

Betty W01
06-21-2004, 09:12 AM
Liam, performing his newest song...


06-21-2004, 10:24 AM
Now, that was funny!

08-08-2004, 11:16 PM
Let's say I woke up tomorrow and discovered that during a spell of amnesia I'd sold a work of mine to PublishAmerica. Here's my proposed initial letter to them:
Hiya, PA.

I can't believe I sent you my book, [TITLE]. I must have been out of my mind. For my own good, and for yours as well, I am now terminating our business relationship. Enclosed you'll find a standard revision letter (with SASE), addressed from you to me. I believe the easiest and happiest course for all concerned will be for you to sign that letter and mail it back to me. Let me make it clear that you're going to wind up reverting my book eventually, no matter what; so you may as well spare yourself further trouble.

The other needless difficulty we can spare ourselves is the non-question of my purchasing remainder copies of my own book. I won't do it. You don't have any copies in hand. You surely don't have 49 of them. Please don't make me subpoena testimony to that effect from the production staff at Lightning Press. I don't think they like you much as it is.

Sincerely, etc.But that's just me.)

08-08-2004, 11:23 PM
And of course that should be "standard reversion letter," and the close-paren at the end should go away; but I can't fix them, because AW is still being massively wonky and I'm not getting "edit" as an option on that message.

08-08-2004, 11:35 PM
The board acts the same way when I'm not signed in.

08-09-2004, 05:28 AM
I had something here, but AW seems to have eaten it and when I tried to edit, I got a blank box, so here I am again.:head


08-09-2004, 05:33 AM
Hapi, that letter would guarantee you didn't get your rights back until the final second of those 7 years had ground by, unless you hired a laywer (and I have it on reliable authority that PA isn't fibbing when it tells naughty writers that it will ignore their attorneys' letters).

- Victoria

08-09-2004, 05:38 AM

I might actually try that.

So far:

1) I've not signed the second contract. (They claimed not to have received the first).

2) I've not received my advance (poor George).

3) I've not been assigned a "personal editor".

4) I've not received my author's copies.

5) LS has NO record of ANY copies EVER being printed of my book.

6) When the PA bookstore does work, it is not listed there, nor on Amazon or the half-dozen places PA links it.

7) My author id has not been activated for the PA boards.

Come to think of it, I may be the luckiest PA author ever! :party

I am on my way with a nice agent and am in negotiations for a good, solid, smart deal with a major imprint. Oddly enough, for a series that grew out of the original PA book (like LOTR to the Hobbit).

I would like to take this time to thank (in no particular order) Victoria, Dave, Hapi and Jim as well as few whose handles I can't recall exactly. :clap :hug :love
Your invaluable advice on these boards pointed me to the right people, forums/sites/links, and introduced me to some very good things for which I might not otherwise have taken time.
Keep up the good work! :thumbs

I'll be sure to send my contract pay-off to Hapi should this manage to get me out.
Of course I'm sure she'll find something to do with those 49 copies...:rofl :evil

Andrea :peace

08-09-2004, 06:50 AM
You're welcome.

08-09-2004, 10:59 AM
Bravo, Snarzier!

Victoria, this may be my bad attitude showing again, but if their former authors ignore them, what's PA going to do about it? Do they want to go to court, and have to talk about reversion letters authors are forbidden to show to lawyers or other publishers, or "remainder copies" ordered from the printer after the departing author pays for them, or their massive misrepresentation of themselves as a company that gets brick-and-mortar distribution? I can't imagine that they do.

XThe NavigatorX
08-09-2004, 01:05 PM
You won't need to worry about PA when Jenna sees this thread and kicks your butt, Hapi :lol

08-09-2004, 06:08 PM
Yeah, I know. I meant to start it as a new subject in the main PA thread, not a new topic in its own right, but since I'm still not getting that "edit" option on my messages, I couldn't fix it.

It's here while it's here.

08-09-2004, 08:58 PM
I'm just saying that the PA people are really vindictive, and if you take a hard line with them they're likely to want to slap you into submission just because they can. I know of at least two people whose books were hijacked as a result of a "bad attitude"--PA held onto the rights but withdrew them from publication. That was a while back, but the nasty "your request is denied until we feel like paying attention to it" letter that a number of people have received shows the same kind of attitude at work. I just can't imagine that they'd sign a reversion letter.

I know it sucks, but I really think that a humble, clueless approach is better initially, with the hardball letter held in reserve if that doesn't work.

Andrea, congratulations!

- Victoria

08-10-2004, 02:04 AM
To fill more space (sorry Jenna):

Thanks again Dave, Hapi, Victoria! :snoopy

Andrea :peace

James D Macdonald
08-10-2004, 04:15 AM
...if you take a hard line with them they're likely to want to slap you into submission ...

If you're planning to go this route, be prepared to go the whole way, with a lawyer all ready to break the contract on the grounds that no valid contract ever existed since the piece of paper that was signed was obtained by false pretenses, not negotiated in good faith, fradulent, null, and void.

The inevitable "we find your comments to be comedy" or "don't take that tone with us" letter should be countered with the process server showing up on their doorstep.

Guys, one and all, don't play around. Talk to lawyers. That's the only thing that will get PA's attention.

08-10-2004, 04:17 AM
"PA held onto the rights but withdrew them from publication."

Victoria, this would be breach. Article three of their contract states that "the publisher agrees to cause all copies pf the said literary work to be printed as the market demands."

They would have just violated their own contract there and gave the authors a free pass out of the contract.


08-10-2004, 08:36 PM
>>They would have just violated their own contract there and gave the authors a free pass out of the contract.<<

What actually happened was that these writers were too frightened/impecunious/overwhelmed (pick one) to fight, and groveled instead.

Besides, "as the market demands" provides an out. PA could simply say--and in most cases, quite truthfully--that there was no market demand.

- Victoria

08-11-2004, 01:08 AM
"Besides, "as the market demands" provides an out. PA could simply say--and in most cases, quite truthfully--that there was no market demand."

If this was the case then they would have to invoke paragraph 24 whcih states that "the public demand for the work is no longer sufficient to warrant ints continued manufacture, the publisher may discontinue further manufacture..."

The rights should then revert back to the author and the contract terminated. They may have done this in the past to authors but I believe they can't do things like this or the 49 copies anymore because we are wising up to their tactics. They are not as able to fool us as they once were. We are learning.


08-30-2004, 03:58 AM
defeatist because I think my books should actually be sold in book stores! Silly me...
Here are a couple of marketing threads I have posted on, please feel free to correct me if I have been giving out poor information:

www.publishamerica.com/cg.../10717.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/10717.htm)
www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/5682.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/5682.htm)


08-30-2004, 04:00 AM
Hey! I am so sorry! This didn't go under the PA thread!

08-30-2004, 04:49 AM
<...defeatist because I think my books should actually be sold in book stores! Silly me...>

If you continue to ask intelligent questions, you're apt to get called worse than that. Sad but true.

FM St George
08-30-2004, 05:12 AM
and don't be upset when the threads either "disappear" along with your access to the boards...

PA, despite their claims to the contrary, WANT authors to purchase their own books. Tons of books, in fact - they want YOU to pay THEM a wad of cash to stock your bedroom with overpriced books that you will have to try and unload, usually at a small profit if any at all.

WHY would you receive emails every few months offering "great" discounts if it weren't to encourage you to go into debt? WHY doesn't PA offer returns or at least competitive pricing? WHY would they send out a single press release, if that? I sure as heck got nothing from them to help sell my book.

you should be WRITING, not out on the corner SELLING your book.

don't listen to the prattling juniors either - they're all still deluded by the bright lights and their one dollar bill; figuring they'll strut into a real bookstore and shove their book on the shelves, as one thread in the "New Arrivals" section says - somehow they'll buck the system (set up to destroy all new authors, doncha know) and they'll be the exception to the rule.

good luck and stand fast to your guns!

and please... don't be a stranger here - lots of good help and plenty of support for when things may be tough...


08-30-2004, 05:23 AM
If not for PA, a bunch of PA's writers would have their books on the shelves in bookstores. However, PA's policies and greed are keeping them all outside the stores. Now some of them will never know whether they actually had the stuff to soar with the best in the market and if they're being held back from success.

08-30-2004, 06:14 AM
My book isn't even out and I'm starting to feel a little despondent. How on Earth will things improve if people don't take an honest look at where they are at and change their part in the system by saying no to reselling their own books?
How is it archaic and defeatist to want your book in bookstores? Hello! This is my Career!!! I didn't go through all of the time I spent writing and editing to sell books to my neighbors, and family! I'm not a girl scout!
I'm breathing deeply now and focusing on my next few projects...

08-30-2004, 06:23 AM
Closing this thread-- please feel free to repost this in either of the PA threads already in existence. Thanks.

09-15-2004, 10:39 PM
Sorry for another PA thread, but i thought this would be better suited by itself. I recently signed the PA contract and sent it back to them, and then got the Author Questionaire email from them, which asks for the final proof of your work and a bunch of different information, which i have not sent back. Is there anyway i can get out of this contract with them that you know of?

I don't plan on sending back my final work, or the author questionaire.

After doing some more research, which is what i should have done in the first place, i have decided my work would be best suited anywhere but with PA. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks so much.

aka eraser
09-16-2004, 12:11 AM
ohboy88, I copied your post to the newest pre-existing PA thread.

I'm closing this one now.

10-11-2004, 03:49 AM
to send off to all those authorities listed here.

PA says when a book stops selling, they will inforce article 24 of the contract. Well, don't you think that having two books sold the 2004 is enough to say the book is NOT selling?

I have talked with PA by email, support team of course, and they sent this silly standard message back saying that they will allow me to 1) reedit Death by Bad Magic, or, 2) retitle the book. I shot off an email telling them that I had NO intention of reediting the book since I had it professionally edited before submitting to them, and I had no desire to retitle it.

Now, you ask, why did you submit a second book to them in the first place? Well, back in 2001 I believe, when I had this crook that called herself an literary agent, and not knowing anything about PA, I allowed her to talk me into submitting The Evil Stalker to PA. In the contract I got at that time, they had the second book clause in it, so doing the right thing, I submitted my second finished manuscript to them, that being Death by Bad Magic.

I had said I wasn't going to report anything to the Maryland AG, but darn, why not? I mean, I'm the one being screwed by PA and I want a little something in return.

So, hopefully by this time next week all my paper work and information will be complete so that I may join the others in slapping something in their face, and I hate doing this, as I don't like to fight with anyone, but sometimes it takes a fight. Know what I mean?

I have kept in contact with several newspaper reporters and tv news reporters from that what happened to me and my husband in 2002, even thought about putting a bug in their ear.

I have never allowed what PA has done to stop my writing, am in the process of trying to find a good agent for my next manuscript which I have titled Deadly Encounter. Wish me luck.


10-11-2004, 05:40 AM
I'm interested in learning just who that agent was that steered you to PA.

10-11-2004, 06:36 PM
I'm interested in learning just who that agent was that steered you to PA.

The lovely, ever helpful Karen Carr.

James D Macdonald
10-11-2004, 06:42 PM
Karen Carr (http://walden.mvp.net/~ka9mcr/)?

Do you know this for sure, or are you assuming?

AC Crispin
10-11-2004, 08:34 PM
Writer Beware has documentation that Karen Carr (and several other bogus agents, including Kelly O'Donnell) sent books to Publish America.

What happened with Violet's book (waves to Violet, hi, hon!) was hardly unique. Happened a lot, and we still hear from time to time about scuzzy agents sending books to PA.

It all goes into Writer Beware's database.


-Ann C. Crispin
Writer Beware

10-11-2004, 09:46 PM
Do you know this for sure, or are you assuming?

I know for sure. I was looking into her back in 2001 and I asked to see a list of new authors she placed, she sent me a list with about 90 names on it. I was looking through it and seen a few names that I recognize now. Some PA authors, some people I see on chat rooms. Violet's was fourth to last on that list.

I decided not to use her since when I checked up on the names of the authors I couldn't find their books anywhere. I wound up with PA without her help, but at least she doesn't get her share of my $10.00 royalty checks.


10-11-2004, 10:30 PM
Thank you Kevin! Since Dave asked what her name was I have been raking my brain out trying to remember her name.

KAREN CARR is the name of the scam agent who sent me to PA!

It's terrible to be old. LOL


10-11-2004, 10:35 PM
Hi Ann, how you doing? I remember talking to you AFTER going with this Carr woman, and her sending my manuscript on to PA. Got good information to late, if it was now, instead of then, there would be no way I'd go with either of them.

I got news for anyone who has written a manuscript, nonfictin or fiction, there is no better place and no more honest people to listen to than, Dave K; Victoria and Ann and now this site as well. How I wish all these places were around some 4 years ago.


aka eraser
10-11-2004, 10:44 PM
Folks, please tack any PA-related posts onto either of the existing PA threads on this board. Do not start new threads relating to Publish America.

I'll refer you again to the sticky post Jenna put atop this board.

If EZboard allowed mods to move threads in their entirety within a board and tack them on to an existing thread it would be OK - a bit of a nuisance - but OK. But we can't. We can only close topics, delete them, or move them to another board.

The only other alternative is to copy the "offending" posts (thereby losing formatting and posters' nicks) and then paste them in the appropriate thread; which = more than a nuisance.

Since this thread seems to have bent towards a discussion of a particular agent I'll leave it for now unless overruled by Jenna, or unless Victoria wants to do something else with it.

The initial poster may wish to copy and paste her post into one of the existing PA threads so that she, and anyone who wants to comment on the PA aspect, may do so there.

If this thread is to remain active, please limit the discussion to the agent(s) in question.

Thanks for your consideration.

We now return you to our regular programming.

10-11-2004, 10:56 PM
When I started this message last night, I thought I was starting a new topic under the PA thread. When I hit enter, looked under the PA thread and didn't see it anywhere, I looked again and saw it posted as antoher subject. Then I posted a message on the PA thread asking some to move it to there, don't suppose anyone saw my message.

But, if the powers that has that control here, can please move this message on over to the PA thread, I would be most greatful.


10-11-2004, 10:58 PM
I shall attempt to transfer my first post to the PA thread and leave the rest.

10-12-2004, 01:38 AM
You're welcome Violet.

Speaking of Karen Carr, I went back through that list she sent me and out of all of them I found only two places she sold books through. So for $285-485 she sends your book to two different places. For $285 she was suppose to send it to 10 places, $385, 20 places, $485, 30 places, but she only sold through two, that I can tell. Those two...



Steve Wedel
11-05-2004, 11:09 AM
I just realized my old post on PA's site was copied here. Yeah, doing a vanity search on Google. Anyway, thought I'd chime in and say that PA released the rights to my book back in June, proving that constant bitching can work.

11-22-2004, 08:05 AM
Here's your chance for some light-hearted fun at who PA hates most.

Or add a write-in candidate.

11-22-2004, 11:51 PM
LOL, Dave.

- Victoria

Ed Williams 3
11-23-2004, 01:08 AM
...and I like Dave, but the truth is the truth...


11-23-2004, 01:35 AM
Moi? Naah.

Just remember to vote early and vote often. ;)

11-23-2004, 03:04 AM
Which reminds me of one of Huey Long's pithier sayings: "When I die, if I die, I want to be buried in Louisiana, so I can stay active in politics." :D

John Laurence Robinson

11-23-2004, 06:35 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>"When I die, if I die, I want to be buried in Louisiana, so I can stay active in politics."<hr></blockquote>
LOL, John. Having lived in Louisiana a lifetime ago, I well know of which you speak. We lived there in the bad ol' days of Edwin Edwards.

11-24-2004, 07:19 PM

This is the first hate list I've ever been proud to be on.

11-27-2004, 10:24 AM
Darn, it won't let me vote again! Um, maybe I can convince CSI and Sandy to give me their votes. ;)

Looks like I've won, even without convincing CSI and Sandy to join in.

12-11-2004, 08:48 AM
After reading this article...
<a href="http://www.useless-knowledge.com/1234/dec/article097.html " target="_new">www.useless-knowledge.com/1234/dec/article097.html </a>

The author has a book on one of the PA New York Times "Top Seller" lists asked just one question:

“Do you know of anyone who has been able to terminate their contract with PA?”

I sent the author this thread and hopefully the author will read it. Meanwhile, anyone have any advice?

12-11-2004, 09:30 AM
I sent the author this thread and hopefully the author will read it. Meanwhile, anyone have any advice?

I'd say you've pointed him in the right direction. Now it's up to him.

12-31-2004, 05:10 PM
Ok, I know, I know. There is a HUGE thread about Publish America and an index of all the posts. But what I want is this: A simple list of all the disadvantages of PublishAmerica. As much as I would love to read over 200 pages of posts, I have a life and I need time to write. Can someone set up a list of the disadvantages?

12-31-2004, 08:20 PM
Since you won't read the whole thread, let me summarize:

Stay away from them. I would list all the disadvantages but I too have a life.

FM St George
12-31-2004, 10:18 PM
- books are non-returnable; meaning that NO bookstore will order them unless you harass the heck out of them.

- royalties are low and often not PAID on books that have been purchased.

- NO editing of your book; meaning that no matter how good it might be it's sitting there with drek that shouldn't have even been published.

- harassment of you to buy your own book over and over again at "discount" prices - wouldn't you rather be WRITING than SELLING?

how's that for a start?

Ed Williams 3
12-31-2004, 11:44 PM
James Macdonald has indexed the big Publish America thread so that you can find any imaginable discussion item re PA. The whole purpose of doing that was to provide information for questions like the one you have posed.

aka eraser
01-01-2005, 01:44 AM
Yep, the info is readily available and Jenna really doesn't want another PA thread going. So I'm going to close this one and let it sink.

04-18-2005, 11:12 PM
Okay, this might be part of the answer to the Big Eight that's frequently mentioned. ;)

04-19-2005, 01:18 AM
One of the Eight is missing (I think because the polls allow only a limited number of options): The Pickler, a.k.a. Ed Williams.

I think by now it's probably the Big Twenty. There's got to be plenty of other names here that are on PA's dartboard.

- Victoria

James D. Macdonald
04-19-2005, 01:47 AM
I think the eight were:


Unnamed members of the Eight (the Mysterious Two):


Daughter of Faulkner
04-19-2005, 01:50 AM
And I suspect they are alarmed each one.
Good work everyone. I apprecite each of you, greatly!

Keep firing until they are gone!


Going, going, gone!

Keep them shaking in their shoes!

:box: :box: :Smack: :flag: :Cheer:

James D. Macdonald
04-19-2005, 01:54 AM
Hah! Found it! From the PA boards:


RE: note to publish america

No wait.

I think they are part of the Big Eight who are part of the conspiracy against PublishAmerica.

Let's see you have Anne Crispin, Victoria Strauss, James Macdonald, Becca Easton, Ed Williams. Some guy whose name starts with a "D"

Go visit them at absolutewrite.com to tell them what you think.

04-19-2005, 03:01 AM
I think it says a lot that they couldn't even mention my name and it's so easy to just write Dave. Hmmm, I wonder how the voting is going. I don't see many folks coming over to vote.

04-19-2005, 03:06 AM
...and I like Dave, but the truth is the truth...


Yep! LOL

04-19-2005, 03:08 AM
Glad you found that post, Jim. Dee and I were actually the "mystery 2," and the other six were Ann, Victoria, James, Becca, Ed, and Dave.

Hey, person who made that post, am I allowed to tell yet? :D

(Dave, don't be mad at him. It was a great post... read it again and think it through from another perspective.)

04-19-2005, 03:10 AM
Why can't you just have hats made up with options of imprint. I can't make a vote here! You are all champions in my eyes! I would buy one hat each with each name.

04-19-2005, 03:11 AM
I casted my vote, for Dave!

04-19-2005, 03:44 AM
Heck, I'm not voting. I'm always on the "poopy" list as it is:Shrug:

04-19-2005, 03:45 AM
Hmmm, a hat with "Hated by PA" or "PA hate me" might work. Any other ideas? Any volunteers to do the artwork?

If we come up with something, I'll put it up at the Attack Butterfly store at CafePress cost.

04-19-2005, 03:57 AM
Hmmm, a hat with "Hated by PA" or "PA hate me" might work. Any other ideas? Any volunteers to do the artwork?

If we come up with something, I'll put it up at the Attack Butterfly store at CafePress cost.

LOL...Dave. You love being hated (by PimpAmerica), doncha!

04-19-2005, 04:53 AM
LOL...Dave. You love being hated (by PimpAmerica), doncha!

I voted for Uncle Jim ( I always go with the dark horse candidate). I have every confidence he'll carry the day, and the election (of course, bear in mind this comes from a guy who, back in his brainless, drug-addled, free love, B.C., commie-pinko days was a George McGovern campaign worker, and we all know how well that went).

John (who, though now a rock-ribbed conservative, still has his McGovern/Eagleton button around the house someplace)

Ed Williams
04-19-2005, 06:38 AM
...on prom night! I'm part of the Big Eight, but no ballot access? Are dimpled chads going to be next? I demand satisfaction, I know I'm just an old country boy, but I have rights too! Why, why, why on account of the stress this has caused me I'm going off to bonk someone right now!


James D. Macdonald
04-19-2005, 07:12 AM
I don't know what you mean, Ed. I kissed your sister on prom night and she was all right.

Ed Williams
04-19-2005, 03:14 PM
I don't know what you mean, Ed. I kissed your sister on prom night and she was all right....Uncle Jim, I am so thankful that I'm actually sisterless, I wouldn't know how to defend her honor here on a bulletin board!


04-21-2005, 07:30 AM
LOL @ Ed & Jim.

PS- Dave did I make you mad with that comment?

;) Hope not! LOL

James D. Macdonald
04-21-2005, 07:38 AM
Honor? On a bulletin board?

04-21-2005, 08:16 AM
Good imprints for Dave. "PA Hates me -- and I Love it!" "Fraudinator" "Life Without PA Resonates" "Better To Dump PA - Than Be Dumped ON"

Kevin Yarbrough
04-22-2005, 02:20 AM
If Uncle Jim didn't kiss your sister on prom night, who did he kiss Ed? Ohhh, my mind is working over time and it is not good I tell ya.

Ed Williams
04-22-2005, 02:22 AM
....it's exactly the reason I esteem ya so much!

Kevin Yarbrough
04-22-2005, 03:13 AM
....it's exactly the reason I esteem ya so much!
That's fine Ed, just don't try to kiss me on prom night and we will be all right.

04-22-2005, 03:24 AM
...Uncle Jim, I am so thankful that I'm actually sisterless, I wouldn't know how to defend her honor here on a bulletin board!For shame, sirrah! Like this, of course: http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/fighting/fighting0074.gif

Kiva Wolfe
07-04-2005, 12:06 AM
Darn, these multiple choice tests always throw me, and now I throw myself on the true confessions slab. My heart will always go to Victoria and Writer Beware, but I cast my vote for Dave and P&E. The whole lot of you are a tremendous resource for aspiring authors. You have certainly raised my writer's IQ...

07-15-2005, 05:56 PM
It has, now, shifted away from mocking PA's authors. However, the thread still has its purpose... PA hasn't had enough Schaden happen to it yet.

James D. Macdonald
07-15-2005, 05:59 PM
The Never-Ending PA Thread has gone from five hundred posts to five hundred pages ... and way, way beyond.

The darned thing is like a hydra. Shut down one thread and five more get started. (When you defraud upwards of ten thousand people they want to talk about it.)

James D. Macdonald
07-23-2005, 05:05 AM
Another of our Publish America threads, soon to be condensed into an archive thread. Please, use the NEPAT if you have something to add....

James D. Macdonald
07-24-2005, 06:36 AM
Bookstores for self-published authors....

This idea keeps coming around. Does anyone know how this one in Michigan, or the proposed one in Washington, made out? We know what happened to Bonnie Gibson, when she tried to do something similar for PublishAmerica authors.

This thread should be part of the Big PublishAmerica Roundup, I suppose.

Ken Schneider
07-24-2005, 08:21 PM
I know she brought this up on the P.A. board. I think she is published by them.

I tried, in past months with the information provided to contact her or the store.

I've had no success in reaching anyone through e-mail or by phone.

http://www.highbeam.com/library/doc0.asp?docid=1P1:100670304&refid=ink_tptd_np&skeyword=&teaser= To an article about the store.

The current mall stores- A To Z. http://www.universalmall.biz/search_main.htm

Don't see that store listed.


07-25-2005, 06:08 PM
Heh, I did a google, the last entry I saw was a signing in November 2004. So, it might have lasted a while longer, but it either died or decided to never have another signing.


07-27-2005, 09:36 PM

James MacDonald,

Why are you concern about the profit that this store will make? Are an author that lives in Michigan? If so then let me know, but otherwise to tell you my business plans would be crazy don't you think.

Ken Schneider
07-27-2005, 10:45 PM
The Final word.

Unfortunately, Opportunity Books closed at Universal Mall and I believe went out of business. I don't have any forwarding information on them. I might suggest you visit either Value City or Dollar Tree Stores. They both carry a pretty good selection of books.
Marilyn Zeigler
General Manager

----- Original Message -----
Subject: Info please.

Do you have a store located in your mall named Opportunity books?

Thank you for answering,

James D. Macdonald
07-29-2005, 09:23 AM
Has anyone tried getting a reversion from PA this way?

James D. Macdonald
07-29-2005, 09:32 AM
I'm eventually going to condense the non-NEPAT PA threads into just one or two little archives.

07-29-2005, 10:19 AM
defeatist because I think my books should actually be sold in book stores! Silly me...
Here are a couple of marketing threads I have posted on, please feel free to correct me if I have been giving out poor information:

www.publishamerica.com/cg.../10717.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/10717.htm)
www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/5682.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/5682.htm)

It's amazing, the misinformation on the PA boards. You are right in wanting your books on bookshelves.
The following post from the second thread is absolutely wrong:

a publisher's job is that - to publish and list the book with distributors. The author writes and promotes/markets. That's how it works.

When you are an established author with many books sold, THEN your puiblisher will send you on a book tour, etc. But all new authors haveto prove ourselves first. Whether it's with PA or Randon House.

similar to the line in Matrix: "The publisher can only show you the door. Now you have to open it and walk through."

This is pure nonsense.I was published by a mainstream publisher and they organised ALL my publicity for me - sent the books to reviewers, organised radio interviews, signings, readings, a book tour with Barbara Erskine, and a TV interview. Plus, they paid all my travel expenses and hotel bills. All I had to do was say yes to everything, and then take part. This is their JOB - a mainstream publisher wants to sell books to the public, not to the author.
Sure, if I wanted to do extra work I could. But that was my choice. This is the experience, more or less, of any author witha real publisher.

James D. Macdonald
08-17-2005, 08:07 PM
The reason real publishers don't use their authors as the prime -- or sole -- source of publicity and marketing: Pulicity and marketing are too important to be left in the hands of amateurs.