Historical Novels.

Status
Not open for further replies.

Neon

Registered
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
42
Reaction score
5
Location
UK
How hard is it to write about a time you've never actually experienced?

I recently read a book that was set in Rome BC. The writer was talking about how one of the women had 'dyed, blonde hair'. I never even knew people in those times could dye their hair- how much research does it generally take?

I would love to write a novel set in the past as i am obsessed with all things ancient- it just seems like it would be very easy to do it badly.

P.S sorry for all the posts, i am an over excited and interested newbie.

P.P.S sorry if this is in the wrong forum.
 

Shweta

Sick and absent
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 21, 2006
Messages
6,509
Reaction score
2,730
Location
Away
Website
shwetanarayan.org
You might get more on this over in the Historical forum, so I'll port it over there :)
 

c.e.lawson

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 21, 2007
Messages
3,640
Reaction score
1,286
Location
A beach town near Los Angeles
Hi Neon,

Welcome to AW!

I'm currently working on a historical novel set in ancient Sparta. I have no formal background in that time period or place, nor am I a historian. It can be difficult, to be frank, although it's fascinating and wonderful at the same time. And yes, it is easy to do badly.

Why don't you scroll down to the Historical Writing forum toward the bottom of the main page? There's plenty of this sort of discussion there.

Good luck!

c.e.
 

Neon

Registered
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
42
Reaction score
5
Location
UK
That sounds fascinating- what is your story about?
 

Kenny

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 27, 2007
Messages
104
Reaction score
9
I'm writing a historical fantasy set in medieval England. I've found that reading many different books--mainly focusing upon social history--helps tonnes. Don't try and focus your research into one area though.

The book I'm currently reading is about streets in medieval England, but before that I've read about night in medieval France, senses in medieval England, and lots of books on urban and a few on general history.
 

Zelenka

Going home!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 1, 2007
Messages
2,921
Reaction score
488
Age
44
Location
Prague now, Glasgow in November
Hi Neon,
Welcome to AW and to Historicals. Sad to say it is hard writing a historical novel - mine aren't even ancient and the research is often a nightmare. One of mine in set in England in the 1640s, the other in Scotland in the early 1800s, though I've just been stung by a story set in London in the 1780s, which would need even more research. For some strange reason though, it's enjoyable...
Good luck with your novel!
 

donroc

Historicals and Horror rule
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
7,508
Reaction score
798
Location
Winter Haven, Florida
Website
www.donaldmichaelplatt.com
Welcome and enjoy.

From my POV, people are people with eternal motivations regardless of century: survival, greed, love, altruism, revenge, envy, sacrifice, religious/superstitious beliefs. All of it modified or accelerated by custom, costume, and technology.

Research, research, research and write, write, write.
 

ishtar'sgate

living in the past
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 23, 2007
Messages
3,801
Reaction score
459
Location
Canada
Website
www.linneaheinrichs.com
How hard is it to write about a time you've never actually experienced?

I would love to write a novel set in the past as i am obsessed with all things ancient- it just seems like it would be very easy to do it badly.
My first historical novel was set in the medieval period and took a lot of research to get it right. I had to reach a point where I was so immersed in the period that I didn't need to keep fact-checking as I went along, I felt as if I lived during the plague years. My current WIP is set in ancient Babylon and research for that period is far more difficult. Online sources and historians often give conflicting information probably because the scribes in ancient times were not exactly concerned with a true account of a given event. All they wanted to do was make their king look good.
If you're interested in writing about a particular period my advice to you would be to make sure you do a thorough job of research. Readers will notice. I've had them ask some pretty obscure questions and you need to be prepared to give an answer. Good luck with your writing!
Linnea
 

DeleyanLee

Writing Anarchist
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 6, 2007
Messages
31,661
Reaction score
11,407
Location
lost among the words
How are anything is to write totally depends on the story you want to tell and how familiar you are with the components needed for that story. As long as you have a comfort zone that allows the story to flow, I think you're good.

Personally, I don't find certain eras of history that difficult to write in. But, then, I was an odd child who would rather read a biography of Lucretia Borgia or Oscar Wilde than "Dick and Jane". I've been reading biographies and non-fiction for fun since I could read. I'd read most everything the literature classes assigned long before I reached the class for fun. Not to mention historical fiction. Thus, there are many times and places that I feel comfortable in my knowledge of. I don't claim to be a scholar by any stretch, but I'm not writing non-fiction and I'm not trying to educate--I'm trying to entertain. When the story is good enough, the facts are forgotten until later, but the story remains.

The DaVinici Code took tremendous liberties with history and facts and still told a damned good story that got people all over the world talking and investigating things they'd taken for granted before. Tremendous outcry against it on so many levels. Yet, people are waiting anxiously for Brown's next book. I don't think being inaccurate and outright false has hurt his career any since he delievered a really GREAT story.

Take a look at Wilbur Smith's Egypt books. It's Victorian England on the Nile. That concept of Egyptian culture hasn't been prevalent in scholarly circles for at least the 40years I've been paying attention to it. Can't even find it on the History Channel. The average person has access to the modern understanding of the facts yet, none of those inaccuracies has turned away readers or hurt his career. Last I checked, he was a NYT bestselling author and getting drop bins at bookstores.

From all that I've seen in 30 years of listening to readers and seeing what sells big, I believe that the average American reader--not scholars, not writers, not survivors of the era--but average American readers don't know historical details and, even more, don't care. They want to be entertained, they want to FEEL like they're in that time, and they don't want their misconceptions about what was corrected by facts. Give the reader what they want consistently and you'll have a career. Give a lot of readers what they want and you'll have a big career.

Every story has hard parts. Just the nature of the beast. Up to your knowledge, skills and vision which parts are harder than others. But history isn't inherently one of those points every time.

Good luck with your writing.
 

Pup

.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 1, 2006
Messages
374
Reaction score
75
From all that I've seen in 30 years of listening to readers and seeing what sells big, I believe that the average American reader--not scholars, not writers, not survivors of the era--but average American readers don't know historical details and, even more, don't care. They want to be entertained, they want to FEEL like they're in that time, and they don't want their misconceptions about what was corrected by facts. Give the reader what they want consistently and you'll have a career. Give a lot of readers what they want and you'll have a big career.

Unfortunately, deliberately writing history wrong becomes self-perpetuating. If the average American reader has misconceptions about history, and writers choose to cater to those misconceptions, readers will continue to have them.

Certainly one can write historical fiction without caring whether it actually reflects life in the past, but speaking for myself, my whole interest in historical fiction is as a way to communicate my best understanding of the past, not to copy others' misconceptions.

If I thought I had to deliberate present the past in a way that I believed was false, because it would sell better than what I believed was true, I wouldn't even bother writing.
 

DeleyanLee

Writing Anarchist
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 6, 2007
Messages
31,661
Reaction score
11,407
Location
lost among the words
Actually, the problem is that Americans are taught incorrect history in schools and never bother to realize it. At least, my generation was and my children were. The problem really has little to do with fiction, it's an overall cultural problem. History isn't seen as that important. Believe me, I'm not condoning, just noting.

And I'm not saying that history HAS to be thrown out the window--but if it's a choice between a novel that's entertaining and historically dubious or wrong and a novel that's historically accurate and tedious, boring or otherwise not entertaining--the entertainment factor will always win out in the American market. Getting historically accurate AND entertaining seems to be a challenge that majority of writers can't meet, which is terribly sad. I think that's a strong reason why there isn't a strong independent historical genre market in this country. (Honestly, say "historical fiction" to most non-writers and they think "historical Romance"--which has always frightened me.)

As far as I can see, it basically boils down to what you want to do with your writing and what your goals for any kind of writing career are. Me--I want the big career, so I what history is presented in my work will, I hope, add to the feel and flavor of the story and any historical fact that would interfere with the story will be ignored as if it never existed. If there's a conflict between what the average reader believes about the Victorian era and what is fact, then I'll always go with what is understood. My purpose in writing is not education, it's entertainment. If people are entertained enough, they can and will educate themselves.

Every writer has to find their own way that works for them and works for their stories and their goals. That's one of the constant wonders and frustrations of doing this job.
 

Memnon624

A Boy and his Orc . . .
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 23, 2005
Messages
330
Reaction score
90
Location
Southern USA
Website
www.scottoden.com
Egyptologist and writer Georg Ebers said it best:

"The Historical Novel must be enjoyed like any other work of art. No one reads it to study history; but many, the author hopes, may be aroused by his work to make investigations of their own . . ."

Something I noticed during my agent search is that many of the agents I queried liked the story but didn't know what to do with it. Some of this I attribute to what DeleyanLee pointed out: by and large, history isn't appreciated in America (at least, history beyond the Civil War). I never quite understood their attitude, especially as there have been all manner of high-profile historical novels that have made the bestseller lists. Must be one of those unknowable mysteries, like the precise length of a piece of string ;)

And to the OP: Welcome, Neon! It's extremely difficult, as it should be, but the curve is lessened by loving your subject ;) If you love a specific bit of history and love research, then by all means have at it. It can be quite rewarding.

Best,

Scott
 

Zelenka

Going home!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 1, 2007
Messages
2,921
Reaction score
488
Age
44
Location
Prague now, Glasgow in November
Way I look at it is like the discussions we have in the Novels forum on whether plot or character or good writing is most important to a book, and which you'd rather have etc. Personally, I strive towards a good story that is also historically accurate. Or at least as historically accurate as I can possibly get it without my brain melting. I think there comes a point where, if the research element is really impeding the story, then maybe there's a judgement call involved - is this tiny factoid really so necessary or could I just move the plot on, but I think until then it's good to try to get everything correct. I don't mean dump a load of historical information on the reader, as we're not writing textbooks as that quote mentioned, but if you are going to mention a specific type of frog as part of your story, then make sure it's the right type of frog (or jacket or gun or flower or whatever). I don't really care how many bestselling authors fudged history, I don't want to be sloppy in my research.

I apologise for rambling there but I lost what I was going to say about halfway through.
 

ishtar'sgate

living in the past
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 23, 2007
Messages
3,801
Reaction score
459
Location
Canada
Website
www.linneaheinrichs.com
A couple of you have mentioned that we're not writing textbooks we're writing fiction. That's true and your historical should not say 'look at me and how well I've done my homework'. Period details ought to mesh seamlessly with the story. Without a story rich in historical accuracy I believe you're cheating your reader. They've picked up your book to get a glimpse of a bygone day and you don't do yourself or them any favours by slapping in a few details that may or may not be accurate to your time period.
Linnea
 

pdr

Banned
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
4,259
Reaction score
832
Location
Home - but for how long?
How difficult?

Very! But if there are certain times past that reach out to you then go for it.
BUT
Make sure you've got a story to tell that can only be best told back then.
AND
Read, study, visit, try your hand physically at some of the things your people did.
WHEN
You've got that time and place fixed in your head and heart, and you can smell, touch, taste and hold it in your imagination, then you write it so that your reader is carried into this world.
EVEN
Though it can never be Ancient Africa, 14thC Turkey or 19thC Malta it is your version of it and if you've done your research then the reader will accept your version of that time and place in the world.

DeleyanLee's comments may be true about many Americans but I am sure, and I can see Puma about to pounce in, that there are Americans who do know and don't like errors just as I know from my writing, reviewing and teaching that the Historical readers I know, outside America, hate errors. And the result of that dislike is that the author who does it is not read again by those readers.

The Da Vinci Code is a treasure hunt, conspiracy theory, Catholic bashing book which is why so many people enjoyed it!
 

Neon

Registered
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
42
Reaction score
5
Location
UK
Thank you for all of the replies.
If i were to write a historical novel, i know exactly where i'd set it- in a small greek town which is under the shadows of an Acropolis. We visited it every year when i was a little girl and it still is my most favourite place on earth.
I may actually attempt one, once i have finished the novel i am working on now- i just have no idea what i'd write about, and that's quite important ha.
 

ishtar'sgate

living in the past
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 23, 2007
Messages
3,801
Reaction score
459
Location
Canada
Website
www.linneaheinrichs.com
Thank you for all of the replies.
If i were to write a historical novel, i know exactly where i'd set it- in a small greek town which is under the shadows of an Acropolis. We visited it every year when i was a little girl and it still is my most favourite place on earth.
I may actually attempt one, once i have finished the novel i am working on now- i just have no idea what i'd write about, and that's quite important ha.
What a great jump off point! Perhaps if you start researching different periods in Greek history, a story idea will present itself. I get lots of ideas as I do my research, generally more than I can handle.
Linnea
 

vrabinec

Dipwad
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 2, 2007
Messages
730
Reaction score
73
Location
Frederick, Md
Website
vrabinec-fred.blogspot.com
My WIP is a turn of the century epic. I can't decide if it's easier to do the research for historic novels set in recent history, or in ancient times. I knew there would be a lot to learn about the time, but I had no idea how many aspects of every day life come into play. What was the plumbing like? Travel? Architecture? Infrastructure?

You might think it's tougher the deeper into the past you go, but I find myself wishing I could just eliminate certain things off-hand, like anything electric or gas engines.

Anyway, I hit about twenty or thirty web sites, bought fifteen or twenty books (including a Sears Catalog of the time I was lucky enough to find), and hit the library countless times, and I still don't feel confident that I have a handle on the times. And, thing is, I'll really only use about 1 out of every fifty things I've researched.

think I'm going with a sci-fi for my next "masterpiece"
 

Forbidden Snowflake

I'm quite put out.
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 16, 2006
Messages
2,026
Reaction score
340
Age
40
Location
UK
Website
www.vinjii.ch
I never dared to go for a historical piece, because the research would be a nightmare. I don't care for Science Fiction though, so I should go for Fantasy ;)

Now, seriously. Isn't the reasearch killing the story at some point?
 

Pup

.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 1, 2006
Messages
374
Reaction score
75
Now, seriously. Isn't the reasearch killing the story at some point?

Don't know about others, but based on the "write what you know" advice, I focus on historical fiction because I already know a fair amount about a period, or can research what I don't know pretty efficiently.

For me to write a modern novel involving police, hospitals, the FBI, the music industry, dot coms, online gaming, student life, or any number of things that others could just sit down and write, would require way more research. I wouldn't even know where to begin, or what the common cliches and myths were. And that's not counting all the other historical times and places, as well as modern cultures and locations outside the US, that I have no clue about.
 

Zelenka

Going home!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 1, 2007
Messages
2,921
Reaction score
488
Age
44
Location
Prague now, Glasgow in November
I never dared to go for a historical piece, because the research would be a nightmare. I don't care for Science Fiction though, so I should go for Fantasy ;)

Now, seriously. Isn't the reasearch killing the story at some point?

I write fantasy as well, and still have to research. Today I was reading up on 17th century English ideas on neurology and the pathology of the brain, to get ready for a scene I have that involves a doctor in my fantasy world performing a lobotomy. My world building takes up about as much time as my research on my historical novel too, if that makes sense. For the fantasy one, I'm having to make sure there are historical reasons for anything weird I'm doing, ways the society works, make sure it's all feasible and believable. I could probably get away without any of that and just write something, same way as I could write a historical novel without doing much research, but I don't think it'd turn out as good for either one.

I'm one of those people though that actually enjoys the preparation, plotting and research as much as the actual writing, but then I'm studying history as well as law at the moment and I've found a passion for it.
 

AZ_Dawn

AW Addict
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 28, 2008
Messages
1,298
Reaction score
229
Location
Southern Arizona
I never dared to go for a historical piece, because the research would be a nightmare. I don't care for Science Fiction though, so I should go for Fantasy ;)
Strangely enough, I tried fantasy and found world building to be a nightmare. :Headbang: Not that historical fiction is much, if any, easier, but at least the world's been partway done for you.;)

In theory, I have an "out" for the heavy historical research: my stories are set in the Golden Age of Cheesy Hollywood Piracy. I could just bone up on pirate lit and watch some cheesy pirate movies! In practice, even cheese needs substance, and for that I had to research the real Golden Age of Piracy. I also had to research the Caribbean at the time, nautical terms, weaponry, diseases, etc. Heck, I had to research cats for one story!:e2cat: All this just so I won't look like a hack with a penchant for stupid anachronisms.

Still, there are some perks to the research, like story or characterization ideas. After all, sometimes truth is cheesier than fiction. :tongue
 

Gina_Marie

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 24, 2008
Messages
166
Reaction score
17
Location
Always Cloudy Syracuse New York
I'm writing a novel set during the American Civil War. Now granted, I never lived during the 1860s, but I know what it feels like to have someone you love very much die. I know what it feels like to lose a love because they decided they grew tired of you. These are all things despite our time in history that doesnt change. We all experience these things. Now, some of the things we do might be different. For instance I never had a dead body in my house, but the emotions are the same. Thats how I try to write.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.