J.K Rowling?

BlueLucario · Feb 9, 2008

I know there are a million posts about this. But I have a question regarding here.

A lot of writers are saying that J.K Rowling is not a great writer, she's a good story teller though. Everyone ranting about her.

If she's so bad, how did she get published? How did she make so much money? How did she make kids read?

I'm not disagreeing, it's just that it doesn't make much sense to me.

When I first started writing again, I wanted to be just like her because back then I thought a lot of writers respected her and since she got kids reading, she was a great example of a good writer. I don't plan on copying her anymore because I just want to do my own thing.

I'm just curious.

EDIT: I also want to know why all the other writers are ranting about her. I was told because of jealousy.

maestrowork · Feb 9, 2008

She's a good storyteller though.

There's your answer.

You don't need to be a GREAT writer like Annie Proulx or Ian McEwan to be successful, but you need to be a good storyteller. And Rowling is a damn fine one.

So stop worrying about whether you write like Rowling or Grisham or King or... Don't worry about whether you should do all caps or use adverbs. Do your own thing, but tell us a good story, and tell it vividly.

BardSkye · Feb 9, 2008

Maybe think of it in movie terms. A great story will keep you enthralled even if the special effects are pretty cheesy and there are no name actors involved. A lousy story won't keep your interest no matter how spectacular the special effects are or who's in the cast.

Does that help?

underthecity · Feb 9, 2008

But she's not a bad writer. I personally think she writes just fine for the age group the books are really designed for. And technically they're children's books. And that style is different than adult fiction. In my research on writing children's books, I learned that the writer must frequently remind the reader who is speaking, so there will be a plethora of dialog tags and--groan--adverb mania.

But a lot of adults read the books, too. And adults might complain about the lavish descriptions (for stimulating young imaginations) and overuse of dialog tags and adverbs. So they point to Harry Potter and say she's a bad writer. BUT, Harry Potter is not for adults.

Now, couple the juvenile writing (not literally, here) with the setting of the mysterious, magical boarding house in the shape of a castle, with the mentally-abused main character whose family hates him, throw in a cast of bizarre characters with hilarious names, an exciting story right on the level for children (The Sorcerer's/Philosopher's Stone) and you have a book that lots of kids will hopefully want to read.

But it wasn't meant for adults.

allen

Bufty · Feb 9, 2008

To be frank -I didn't recognise any influences of JKR in anything you posted, Blue, so you must already be into doing your own thing.

Maestro's right -don't try to write like anybody except yourself.

And three cheers for JKR!!!

maestrowork · Feb 9, 2008

underthecity said:
But she's not a bad writer.

Good point, Allen. She may not be a "great" writer (but according to what standards?), but I don't recall hearing anyone saying she is bad. Like you said, she writes for a specific target audience.

So Blue, how did you go from "she's not great" to "if she's so bad... how did you get published?"

underthecity · Feb 9, 2008

Bufty said:
Maestro's right -don't try to write like anybody except yourself.

And three cheers for JKR!!!

We should all aspire to her success. I know I am.

allen

Devil Ledbetter · Feb 9, 2008

BlueLucario said:
I also want to know why all the other writers are ranting about her. I was told because of jealousy.

I disagree that every time an unpublished writer levels a criticism of a published writer's work, it because of "jealousy." I'm not at all jealous of Rowling, as I've no desire to write middle-grade fiction or fantasy fiction of any kind.

In Rowling's prose you'll find many things we as writers are instructed to avoid, things that are considered "lazy" writing. The most grating is her constant overuse of ly adverbs, especially the use of ly adverbs to prop up weak verbs instead of thinking hard enough to find the proper verb. A perfect example is where she wrote that a shop door's bell "tinkled loudly" when she could have found a more appropriate verb such as "jangled" or "clanked."

She almost constantly uses redundant ly adverbs in her dialogue tags as well. Things along the lines of "I'm furious with you!" Hermione screamed angrily. (Not an exact quote, but open one of her books to nearly any page and you'll find this sort of thing).

Rowling is a strong storyteller and has created vivid characters in an absorbing story-world. That's why her books sell, and that's fine. But just because she's a best seller does not mean she's the world's greatest writer, or that we should all aspire to write like her and start sprinkling every paragraph with ly adverbs. And it certainly doesn't mean that no one should criticize her writing skills - or that if they do it's "just because they're jealous."

IceCreamEmpress · Feb 9, 2008

You've asked this question several times here, and Devil Ledbetter's answer is an extraordinarily eloquent summing-up of the position many professional writers have on Rowling, her books, and her style.

There is no one writer that every reader is going to love. There is no book in which everything is perfect.

rugcat · Feb 9, 2008

Devil Ledbetter said:
I'm not at all jealous of Rowling, as I've no desire to write middle-grade fiction or fantasy fiction of any kind.

In Rowling's prose you'll find many things we as writers are instructed to avoid, things that are considered "lazy" writing. The most grating is her constant overuse of ly adverbs, especially the use of ly adverbs to prop up weak verbs instead of thinking hard enough to find the proper verb. A perfect example is where she wrote that a shop door's bell "tinkled loudly" when she could have found a more appropriate verb such as "jangled" or "clanked.". . .

She almost constantly uses redundant ly adverbs in her dialogue tags as well. Things along the lines of "I'm furious with you!" Hermione screamed angrily. . . .

But just because she's a best seller does not mean she's the world's greatest writer, or that we should all aspire to write like her and start sprinkling every paragraph with ly adverbs. And it certainly doesn't mean that no one should criticize her writing skills - or that if they do it's "just because they're jealous."

Many of the criticisms leveled at Rowling's writing forget she's writing MG fiction, and criticize her work as if it were adult fiction. MG is different, written for a different audience. You might as well criticize The Cat In The Hat in a poetry forum for using too obvious rhymes.

No, she's not a "great" writer. But she's certainly not a bad writer, in fact, she's very, very good at what she does. And she has a great story. As for sales, another well known YA author once remarked to me, "A great story with bad writing will sell better than a bad story written beautifully."

Devil Ledbetter · Feb 9, 2008

rugcat said:
Many of the criticisms leveled at Rowling's writing forget she's writing MG fiction, and criticize her work as if it were adult fiction. MG is different, written for a different audience. You might as well criticize The Cat In The Hat in a poetry forum for using too obvious rhymes.

No, she's not a "great" writer. But she's certainly not a bad writer, in fact, she's very, very good at what she does. And she has a great story. As for sales, another well known YA author once remarked to me, "A great story with bad writing will sell better than a bad story written beautifully."

I didn't "forget" that it was middle grade fiction. I don't believe middle grade fiction calls for the overuse of ly adverbs, or dialogue tags that are redundant with the dialogue.

ETA: Though I do agree that it shouldn't be held to the same standards as adult fiction, while the standards may be different that doesn't mean they should be lower.

Christine N. · Feb 9, 2008

I also think the use of many adverbs is a British thing, perfectly acceptable for writers in the UK, where not so much here in the US.

I've noticed it in other UK writer's books for children. I try to avoid it, but once in a while it works, and I know Jane Yolen can't abide it (she's said so in her journal). Eoin Colfer uses so damn many in the Artemis Fowl books I just can't enjoy them anymore. But he's Scottish, I believe.

I don't notice it as much in HP because, as others have said, the story moves along and by the time you've noticed it, she's moved the story on to something else.

Finni · Feb 9, 2008

In my opinion a good writer sucks me into the story they have created and makes me love the character. JK succeeded in this. I decided not to read the series until all the books came out (I am a very impatient person and I don't like to wait). I read the whole series in 8 days. I didn't want to put the books down.

I want to add one thing here. If all the writers in history went by what they were taught we wouldn't have the nice variety of fiction we have today. Things change. Styles change. Stories change. What readers respond to changes. This doesn't mean I'm going to start using ly everywhere. It means I won't be afriad to go against the grain every once in a while, and I won't knock bestsellers when they do it either.

Dragon-lady · Feb 9, 2008

Finni said:
It means I won't be afriad to go against the grain every once in a while, and I won't knock bestsellers when they do it either.

I agree that we shouldn't be afraid to "break a rule" if we think it will improve a story...

But why should we be afraid to criticize someone just because they're a bestseller?

Once any of us, whether it's Rowling or somene a lot less famous and well paid, turns loose of our work, it's going to be criticized. That applies to you and to me AND to Rowling. Jealousy has nothing to do with it. We're writers. Of COURSE we are going to discuss writing.

I absolutely disagree that YA (and it's YA NOT children's which is quite different) should be held to some low standard. While you'll need more dialogue tags and more description is acceptable, young adults deserve good writing.

BlueLucario · Feb 9, 2008

maestrowork said:
Good point, Allen. She may not be a "great" writer (but according to what standards?), but I don't recall hearing anyone saying she is bad. Like you said, she writes for a specific target audience.

So Blue, how did you go from "she's not great" to "if she's so bad... how did you get published?"

I'm not saying she's bad or not the greatest. It's just what the others are saying.

HeronW · Feb 9, 2008

Rowlings strong points: She cares about her characters, she learned as she went and her writing improved, she had fun with it, she loved what she was doing.

BlueLucario · Feb 9, 2008

Why are a lot of people saying all this? That she's bad.

Devil Ledbetter · Feb 9, 2008

BlueLucario said:
Why are a lot of people saying all this? That she's bad.

Who, exactly, said she is bad? Can you quote them, and link us to where they said it? Maybe if you provide some kind of context for your claim that "a lot of people" are saying "she's bad" we could help you figure it why.

maestrowork · Feb 9, 2008

BlueLucario said:
I'm not saying she's bad or not the greatest. It's just what the others are saying.

And I am saying I have NEVER heard anyone say she's a bad writer. Not the greatest or that she should win a Nobel Prize, but I have never heard anyone say she's bad.

Can you cite your source? Who are these "others"? If you can't provide us with links or references, then I'd say your OP is moot.

katiemac · Feb 9, 2008

BlueLucario said:
Why are a lot of people saying all this? That she's bad.

Some posters upthread have already given examples of why her writing may not be considered wonderful. Others have given you examples where they think her writing works.

Opinion is opinion and you may never figure out the "why" behind it, but you already have some solid answers. If you search through the rest of the JK Rowling threads, of which there are many, you'll find even more debate on this subject.

Rolling Thunder · Feb 9, 2008

I like JK's books, but I think some people don't understand they were targeted towards Middle Grade readers: not adults. Once adults got hold of them though the books took on an extended life.

MG readers require a different touch than YA or adult. You can't throw in twenty dollar words. You can't cut out all adjectives. And...you can't try to whack them over the head with symbolism and esoteric imagery. This isn't 'dumbing down' to the reader either. You cater to the level of the market, education wise.

Even JKR has commented on how her stories are being de-constructed by others.

http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/1999/0799-booklinks-omalley.html

JOM: Are you ever surprised by what people find in this book?

Rowling: I've had some time to stand back from the first book and I can now talk about it far more objectively than I could when I was writing it. I've had various accusations leveled at me. Some people have said that it's very traditional. Now, there are elements in the story that are undoubtedly very traditional. In many children's books, you will find the same basic pattern that occurs in fairy tales. There are good reasons why fairy tales endure. They appeal to us on such a subconscious and emotional level. I think you could say many of the same things about Harry. You have the changeling, you have the wicked stepparents (even though one of them is a blood relative, in Harry's case). You even have an ugly brother, in a way. But I certainly did not sit down and think about incorporating all of those elements. It all came from inside. I sweated blood over that story to make it work, but it really came from my heart. Only later can you start analyzing it. But you can overanalyze, too. I had a woman tell me it was clear to her that Harry was so abused that he becomes schizophrenic, and that everything that happens from the point of the arrival of the letters about Hogswart is his own escape into a sort of torture-fantasy. I tried to be polite and say something like, 'Well, that would be one way of looking at it, I guess.' But I was kind of scared. One of the nicest things about writing for children is that you don't find them deconstructing novels. Either they like it or they don't like it.

Sage · Feb 9, 2008

Thanks for the quote, Rllg. It's interesting to see her perspective on that. And the schizophrenic analysis is funny (and intriguing)

BarbJ · Feb 9, 2008

I'm one of those who wrote in one of the threads here that Rowling isn't a great writer. I also wrote that she's a great or fantastic or whatever story-teller, and that's what I want to aim for. I in no way think she is a bad writer, and I don't remember reading it from any one else.

What I was referring to in the "not great" is that she doesn't follow all the lists of rules and regulations for grammar correctness, yet managed to tell darn good stories without doing so. There are times when I think wirters and editors get too burdened with the "how to do it" of writing. Some modicum of correctness is necessary, usually for clarity, but not so much if it gets in the way of the story. Does that help?

One line of hers I can't get out of my head: _____ looked at the look on ______'s face. Why that one, I don't know. It hasn't stopped me from reading the Potter series twice. Let the story rule, and the grammar merely assist.

rugcat · Feb 9, 2008

Rllgthunder said:
I like JK's books, but I think some people don't understand they were targeted towards Middle Grade readers: not adults. Once adults got hold of them though the books took on an extended life.

MG readers require a different touch than YA or adult. You can't throw in twenty dollar words. You can't cut out all adjectives. And...you can't try to whack them over the head with symbolism and esoteric imagery. This isn't 'dumbing down' to the reader either. You cater to the level of the market, education wise.

This is precisely the point I was trying to make.

Linda Adams · Feb 9, 2008

BlueLucario said:
Why are a lot of people saying all this? That she's bad.

Maybe a more accurate phrase would be that her writing isn't perfect. She has strengths and weaknesses. That's going to be true for any writer.

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