Stabbed in the heart!

I'm no expert, but here's my understanding:

1) The idea of "one in a million" is a bit of a stretch. More like one in two hundred.

2) I'm told the most difficult thing is for the blade to FULLY penetrate the muscle wall (although it has been done many many times).

3) Ribs can be a hinderence (that's their job, actually).

4) It's more likely the knife will pierce the major (and I do mean MAJOR) vessels surrounding the heart than the heart itself.

5) The muscles of your back are usually thicker and in much better shape than the muscles of your front-side. So again, penetration is an issue.

6) Stabbing in the back is more likely to result in a punctured lung than a pierced heart.

In the front you have collarbones, ribs, and the sternum, the back has the wings of the shoulder blades and more ribs. Old joke redux: the way to a man's heart is through his stomach, past the liver and go right.

A thin blade, and frankly, most edges are thin, so slipping it in sideways at the center of the left breast will usually get a hit on the heart or the aortas.

If you're talking a rapier, it would slide between the rib bones and slip in easily but the person would take time to die since the point is 2-3 mm. A decent broadsword could crunch through rib bones and skewer the heart.

Going from the back, a blade under the ribs to the left, centered between the spine and the side is a good way to hit the heart.

This can vary with the vic's weight, clothing, what's in their pockets to block a blade, the size of the blade, force of entry, place of entry, etc.

I disagree with one in a million. Odds are higher. I haven't seen a million stabbing vics, just a few hundred. In those cases I've seen: cardiac damage that was survived; cardiac damage that was not survived; dead pt w/ no cardiac damage; surviving pt w/ no cardiac damage. (Don't gotta hit the heart to kill someone with a torso stabbing-whether anterior or posterior attack.)
Main hinderance with the average stabbing utensil is length.
You can write it either way and be fine. A person can certainly suffer an exsanguinating hemmorhage that is largely internal and will keep the sheets fairly clean.

Under the sternum is more likely to hit liver than anything. If the object is narrow it should have no trouble going between or grazing past the ribs. An unlucky (for the killer) hit would bounce off a rib. Most stabs with a thin and sharp weapon would make it through. Let the killer go for the heart if that's what they intend. Its not like its a small organ (especially with the major vessels around it)

NancyMehl said:

I have an editor who says that if someone was stabbed in the chest with a thin, sharp instrument, there's only a one in a million chance that the person doing the stabbing would hit the heart and kill the person.

Click to expand...

Your editor has never been in a knife fight, or treated members of the Saturday Night Knife and Gun Club.

1 - Define "chest". If you want to make sure to hit the heart, stab right under the sternum and aim slightly upwards and directly towards the spine... you nail it every time.

2 - You don't have to hit the heart ... all you have to do is hit a big-enough blood vessel (artery or vein) and they'll drown in their own blood. Going straight in on the midline just below the sternum, and deep, if you miss the heart, you have a good chance of hitting the descending aorta OR the vena cava.

3 - The most dangerous stab wounds are right around the nipple level aimed at the spine because you have not only the heart, aorta, and vena cava, but the pulmonary arteries to hit.

4 - Stabs from the rear are less likely to be fatal because the aorta and vena cava are partly protected by the spine. And the shoulder blades get in the way. You can, however, stab upwards just to one side of the spine, just below the ribs and take out a kidney and the renal artery. It's also a major bleeder.

5 - Stab wounds to the lungs can be slowly fatal because the wound lets air into the pleural cavity, the lung collapses and bad things happen (see tension pneumothorax and traumatic pneumothorax)

With a random stab at a moving target the chances are good you'll hit a rib and the knife is deflected. It may be deflected towards or away from blood vessels.

The stereotypical dagger wielding maniac waving the thing to stab downward is less dangerous than the maniac who is holding the blade low to strike upwards. Fewer bones and more soft things that bleed.

does it have to be the chest?

Much easier for fatal wounds in the head with a knife. under the jaw strait up with narrow blade. There will be resistance going through the roof of the mouth, but less i think than going through the chest. Also not as bloody as hitting major arteries.

For that matter, it could be done with a screwdriver if forceful enough. For what its worth...

Piggybacking here

Would a deep stab wound right under the sternum hit a lung? One of my characters tries to suicide (he's a failed assassin in the 12th century) by falling forward on his knife. He's aiming for his heart, botches it, and ends up with a rather lengthy dagger jutting from his sternum. I have him choking on blood because in the narrative it looked cool . . . I have no clue if that would actually happen :/

Scott

Memnon624 said:

Piggybacking here

Would a deep stab wound right under the sternum hit a lung?

Click to expand...

Maybe, depending on the , but he could slice open the descending aorta and the inferior vena cava ... he'll go into hypovolemic shock and die fairly quickly. You also have some of the liver and stomach in that area ... slower but effective as the stomach acid leaks out and starts digenting his innards.

One of my characters tries to suicide (he's a failed assassin in the 12th century) by falling forward on his knife. He's aiming for his heart, botches it, and ends up with a rather lengthy dagger jutting from his sternum.

Click to expand...

You mean THROUGH the sternum? He'll hit the heart, may hit a bronchial tube and burble nicely. But not for long.

Thanks! It's going in under the sternum, angled up and a little left (the knife has a slight curve). Poor guy will burble a bit, heave out a word or two, then the protagonist rips the knife out and hammers it back in the poor guy's chest, left of center.

My protagonist is not a nice man.

Thanks again!

Scott

I'm so sorry. I know I'm supposed to keep threads from derailing in here, but I just have to share a story--complete with actual pictures of the patient--regarding a non-fatal heart stabbing. I was at an EMS conference, and one of the classes dealt with chest injuries. The doc who lectured in this class was one of the treating physicians.

A man and his wife were having a rather heated argument, and during the course of the argument she picked up a meat thermometer to hit him with. It was the kind with the metal probe and the circular dial that shows the temp on top. Whether she meant to or not, she stabbed him with it. Right in the heart.

Because it was left in place, he ended up being easily stabilized prior to surgery, and his wound was relatively easily fixed (versus dying, I suppose).

The really cool thing was that the doc had pics of the guy's chest with the thermometer sticking out of it. And it was reading his body temp, which was a healthy and perfect 98 degrees.

If she or anyone else had ripped that thing back out, though, he would very likely have died.

Schwebb ... "Is he done yet"?

Yes, leaving things in is far safer than removing them. We had the "Tucson rebar case" where someone somehow impaled himself on some rebar sticking up at a construction site. They cut the rebar with a welding torch (packed rebar in ice to avoid burning the patient) and transported him to Phoenix.

I vividly remember a guy being brought into the hospital I worked in, taped into a kitchen chair, being carried by the EMTs. He had a hunting knife sticking out of the front of his torso. He had been hunting, came home, skinned out the deer, was washing up and as he was carrying the knife across the kitchen he stepped on a HotWheels car his son had lost.

He fell, landed on the knife, and had the good sense to sit down in the chair next to the phone and call for help. The EMTs taped him solidly to the chair (duct tape, the best first-aid supply in the world), then brought him, knife and chair to the hospital. They x-rayed while he was still in the chair, took him and his chair to surgery. He survived, but leaving the knife in place was what saved his life. It acted as a plug.

HeronW said:

In the front you have collarbones, ribs, and the sternum, the back has the wings of the shoulder blades and more ribs. Old joke redux: the way to a man's heart is through his stomach, past the liver and go right.

A thin blade, and frankly, most edges are thin, so slipping it in sideways at the center of the left breast will usually get a hit on the heart or the aortas.

If you're talking a rapier, it would slide between the rib bones and slip in easily but the person would take time to die since the point is 2-3 mm. A decent broadsword could crunch through rib bones and skewer the heart.

Going from the back, a blade under the ribs to the left, centered between the spine and the side is a good way to hit the heart.

This can vary with the vic's weight, clothing, what's in their pockets to block a blade, the size of the blade, force of entry, place of entry, etc.

Click to expand...

Translation: Be wary should Heron greet you at the door...and she mutters: 'En' gaurd!'

Tsu Dho Nimh said:

Schwebb ... "Is he done yet"?

Yes, leaving things in is far safer than removing them. We had the "Tucson rebar case" where someone somehow impaled himself on some rebar sticking up at a construction site. They cut the rebar with a welding torch (packed rebar in ice to avoid burning the patient) and transported him to Phoenix.

I vividly remember a guy being brought into the hospital I worked in, taped into a kitchen chair, being carried by the EMTs. He had a hunting knife sticking out of the front of his torso. He had been hunting, came home, skinned out the deer, was washing up and as he was carrying the knife across the kitchen he stepped on a HotWheels car his son had lost.

He fell, landed on the knife, and had the good sense to sit down in the chair next to the phone and call for help. The EMTs taped him solidly to the chair (duct tape, the best first-aid supply in the world), then brought him, knife and chair to the hospital. They x-rayed while he was still in the chair, took him and his chair to surgery. He survived, but leaving the knife in place was what saved his life. It acted as a plug.

Click to expand...

I've heard this time and time again: leave whatever weapon has perforated the body in place...allow medical professionals to remove it. Problem is, it's our natural reaction to yank it free. My son mentioned something 'bout being taught this in Army bootcamp prior to being sent to war.