i'm pretty sure this has been addressed already, but does erotica turn you off a sci-fi/fantasy story? how far can you reasonably go with it? how would you rate most of the genre, PG, R, etc.? is sex rather a taboo subject, and when it's employed, is it generally glossed-over or very subtle as to practically not exist?
erotica in sci-fi/fantasy....
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Aside from some rather embarassing stories by Piers Anthony, I've never run across any erotic SF. I suppose there's a place for such a thing, but that place isn't on my book shelf. I can't speak for Fantasy, though, as I haven't read nearly as much of that.
BTW, Erotica is a genre. If the plot hinges on sex it's Erotica. If sex isn't the central theme then it's just a story that happens to contain sex.
I like my SF hard, but not in the erotic sense.
BTW, Erotica is a genre. If the plot hinges on sex it's Erotica. If sex isn't the central theme then it's just a story that happens to contain sex.
I like my SF hard, but not in the erotic sense.
"Erotic" scenes in Fantasy
I had an issue with this in my second book. It's still only in the writing, getting it out stage, but the scene in question is in oh, chapter three or so. The sex isn't described by any stretch of the imagination. Here's the passage:
“I carried you with me for so long,” she sighed into his ear, “both physically and emotionally.” She allowed a little chuckle to fight its way free from her rising emotions. Kilvaren raised her face to his and kissed her deeply and stopping her words.
“Then let me carry you for a while.”
He gently laid Cislin back on her bed. When he took his place beside her, the place reserved for him so long ago, Cislin’s memories of the urgent, frenzied sex of youth began to be replaced by the passionate, tender love of adulthood. As they began to share that love, Cislin thought, This is how it should have been all along. This is where he belongs now, and always.
__________________
That's the extent of it. My husband says it has turned it into a soap opera, and I may end up taking the entire chapter out because it's not necessary for the story in its entirety. It is necessary for the man to be there, but the sex is not necessary. Like I said, it's still in the "writing" phase and it's too early to make a monumental decision. It isn't necessary for the story, but right now it's necessary for the character, Cislin.
I personally don't find anything wrong with scenes like the one I've posted above in a fantasy novel. I think the genre is read by a lot of men because of the adventure aspect of it, and they don't really want all that mushy girl-stuff. I read the genre because of the locations and the possiblities in those worlds that aren't in ours, but then again, I'm a girl.
What do you think, though? Is the above kind of what you were talking about, or were you talking more along the lines of racy, hot-n-sweaty sexual descriptions? Would you stop reading a fantasy novel in which the above scene appeared in chapter 3?
WVWG
I had an issue with this in my second book. It's still only in the writing, getting it out stage, but the scene in question is in oh, chapter three or so. The sex isn't described by any stretch of the imagination. Here's the passage:
“I carried you with me for so long,” she sighed into his ear, “both physically and emotionally.” She allowed a little chuckle to fight its way free from her rising emotions. Kilvaren raised her face to his and kissed her deeply and stopping her words.
“Then let me carry you for a while.”
He gently laid Cislin back on her bed. When he took his place beside her, the place reserved for him so long ago, Cislin’s memories of the urgent, frenzied sex of youth began to be replaced by the passionate, tender love of adulthood. As they began to share that love, Cislin thought, This is how it should have been all along. This is where he belongs now, and always.
__________________
That's the extent of it. My husband says it has turned it into a soap opera, and I may end up taking the entire chapter out because it's not necessary for the story in its entirety. It is necessary for the man to be there, but the sex is not necessary. Like I said, it's still in the "writing" phase and it's too early to make a monumental decision. It isn't necessary for the story, but right now it's necessary for the character, Cislin.
I personally don't find anything wrong with scenes like the one I've posted above in a fantasy novel. I think the genre is read by a lot of men because of the adventure aspect of it, and they don't really want all that mushy girl-stuff. I read the genre because of the locations and the possiblities in those worlds that aren't in ours, but then again, I'm a girl.
What do you think, though? Is the above kind of what you were talking about, or were you talking more along the lines of racy, hot-n-sweaty sexual descriptions? Would you stop reading a fantasy novel in which the above scene appeared in chapter 3?
WVWG
that scene sounds fine to me. would the average fan be opposed to something steamier, you think? not to make it sound like porn or turning it into a sleazy thing for a page or so, but would 'adult' fantasy be out of line with fans and publishers?
Well, it depends on the book. I recommend you go to your local bookstore and look at Laurel Hamilton's books and Jacqueline Carey's Kushiel series as the books that probably have the most sex of works that are still considered within the genre.preyer said:
There is also a new trend for paranormal romance; Tor has a new mass-market paranormal romance line, and Luna is publishing paranormal romance trade paperbacks. I own several of these but haven't read them yet.
Kate Nepveu said:
I read a book several months ago that fell under the 'Paranormal Romace' genre, where the sexual experience was almost in every third chapter, and was highly intense. I found it acceptable only because it was within the genre 'Paranormal Romance;' I personally would not have felt as comfortable reading the exact same book were it under strictly the 'Fantasy' genre.
However, I am somewhat old-fashioned when it comes to this subject. My take has always been, at least with the Fantasy Genre, that erotica within would best be described in vague terms or in the classic 'they went into the bedroom and shut the door behind them' scene. But again, this is only my humble opinion: I haven't read any recent books of the 'Fantasy' genre itself -- I think the latest I read was an Anne McCaffrey book done back about '89 -- so I don't know much about the trends within the Fantasy Genre presently.
Still, I personally think that a Fantasy book with a lot of erotic scenes in it would be best suited under the genre title 'Paranormal Romance.' It makes more sense to me because if I, as a reader, am not expecting erotic scenes in a book designated 'Fantasy,' (Which under that genre title I usually don't) and find said scenes, I become very uncomfortable reading it. On the other hand, if I start reading a book knowing there is a romantic and erotic flavor to it, I am not so uncomfortable in the reading thereof.
Just my two cents.
I forgot to mention that the above scene is the *only* scene in this book that's even moderately racy. I just wanted to make it clear that I didn't dump sex throught the book. *grin*
WVWG
WVWG
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Is there anything wrong with a bit of sex in a story if it's not gratuitous? Is it there just for titillation or does it carry the characters beyond where they were before? I don't think sex is a stranger to SciFi. It just needs to be there for a reason. Explicit descriptions may get you shelved in the wrong section, s'all.
I think if you saw the packaging, cover copy, etc., of the Hamilton and Carey books, you'd expect the erotic scenes. But this is an excellent point--reader expectations are serious and powerful things, and if authors are going to violate them, they ought to know what they're doing and why.SeanDSchaffer said:
that's why i've always lobbied for a ratings system on books, an idea that's roundly rejected by most writers on these boards. i think what a lot of writers are afraid of is wal*mart won't carry their books if 'they' knew what was in them, lol.
'preyers' is by no means meant for the kiddies or folk not liking some, ah, risque storytelling. for instance, late in the book, one of my two protags completely has his mind blasted, is thrown into a pit of corpses, finds his lover there, and, bear in mind he's totally lost it, tries to screw her back to life. of course, that's not erotic in any sense of the word, but just as an illustration of how far a publisher is willing to go within the fantasy genre, i have to wonder if that's pushing things perhaps too far for a fanbase that's pretty conservative for the most part (or at least that's generally the type of fare we're offered, though i've seen some 'dark fantasy' books that have pushed some limits).
odd that there are plenty of covers with hot chicks on them and we expect the books *not* to contain a good sex scene, eh? lol.
'preyers' is by no means meant for the kiddies or folk not liking some, ah, risque storytelling. for instance, late in the book, one of my two protags completely has his mind blasted, is thrown into a pit of corpses, finds his lover there, and, bear in mind he's totally lost it, tries to screw her back to life. of course, that's not erotic in any sense of the word, but just as an illustration of how far a publisher is willing to go within the fantasy genre, i have to wonder if that's pushing things perhaps too far for a fanbase that's pretty conservative for the most part (or at least that's generally the type of fare we're offered, though i've seen some 'dark fantasy' books that have pushed some limits).
odd that there are plenty of covers with hot chicks on them and we expect the books *not* to contain a good sex scene, eh? lol.
Erotic/Sci-Fi
Erotic(a)/Romantica Sci-Fi/Fantasy is becoming increasingly popular particularly with e-pubs. Check out: Ellora's Cave, Liquid Silver Books, and Loose ID (to name a few). What you will find if you check around is that erotica readers are demanding more intricate storylines. Now, while the erotica industry is booming, I don't think many erotica readers are also straight sci-fi readers, so the probability of shared readership is most likely small.
Erotic(a)/Romantica Sci-Fi/Fantasy is becoming increasingly popular particularly with e-pubs. Check out: Ellora's Cave, Liquid Silver Books, and Loose ID (to name a few). What you will find if you check around is that erotica readers are demanding more intricate storylines. Now, while the erotica industry is booming, I don't think many erotica readers are also straight sci-fi readers, so the probability of shared readership is most likely small.
true. i'm not suggesting mixing genres, particularly erotica and sci-fi. as mentioned, more just a well-placed sex scene in SF/F that's got a little heft to it. it begs to have a satire written about it, no?
Galoot said:
Heinlein attempted it in his later SF books. It may not seem like it now, but "Time Enough for Love", "Number of the Beast", "Stranger in a Strange Land", and "I Will Fear No Evil" were all pretty racy for their times.
Robert Silverberg also dabbled in it. "Tower of Glass" comes to mind.
You have to remember, though, up until the late 70s, SF magazines were pretty puritanical.
I read one straight-up (you'll forgive the pun) erotic fantasy novel. It had wizards and witches, elves (both high and low), dwarves and goblins. The interesting thing is that although it started out being purely erotic in nature and VERY explicit, as the story progressed, the eroticism became less prominent. By the end, it was a typical "heroic journey" type fantasy. It was very interesting to watch it metamorphose from pornography into literature.
I don't think every story should have (or be about) sex. But every story should at least acknowledge its existence, since sex is fundamental to human psychology.
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I like sf erotica but I want to know that it will be in the book before I buy it, rather than just 'popping up'.
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Roger J Carlson said:
Don't forget Heinlein's Friday. Sex was pretty casual in it. And McCaffrey's Freedom's Landing series had some sex scenes in them, though IMO that entire series was far from her best work. The Pern books, too, if you think of the dragon mating scenes and how the dragonriders reacted when their dragons were in heat. *shrug*
I think sex is actually pretty prevalent in the SF/F genre.
sure, sex is there, but how it's described and dealt with is changing gradually, isn't it? how far can published gay sci-fi/fantasy be off? i'm not talking about erotica fan-fic or something you'd find off the internet, but right there on the shelves at B&N. put that stuff in 'gay interest' or alongside asimov?
But I'm saying its already there. In Friday, it was as likely for the female characters to jump into bed with one another as it was for a threesome or sixsome to occur. At one point in that book, two female characters were cohabitating in a nice little family environment.
Another example, F.M. Busby's Star Rebel. It is the classic Navy-in-space scenario. Sex between members of the same sex was a spacing offense. Yet, when the protag catches two men in the airlock, he agrees to cover it up rather than reporting them.
Granted, none of the elements of these books are the primary plot points, but in some cases, how the main characters react do create decisive moments for them. Other times, it is mere background information. When you are talking about where things should be shelved at B&N, to me that would be the deciding factor. Is the sex a detail or as the primary plot?
Another example, F.M. Busby's Star Rebel. It is the classic Navy-in-space scenario. Sex between members of the same sex was a spacing offense. Yet, when the protag catches two men in the airlock, he agrees to cover it up rather than reporting them.
Granted, none of the elements of these books are the primary plot points, but in some cases, how the main characters react do create decisive moments for them. Other times, it is mere background information. When you are talking about where things should be shelved at B&N, to me that would be the deciding factor. Is the sex a detail or as the primary plot?
unfortunately, if it's there in graphic form, the deciding factor may be the stores selling the book. advertised as a 'gay space opera,' i'm pretty sure wal*mart isn't going to carry it. okay, i'm damn skippy they won't.
in those examples you provided, i think it depends on the detail of the laison more than if it happened and was gone in the same paragraph. and i venture to say that lesbian acts are by far more acceptable than male/male acts, eh? there's also a difference between your side characters being caught in the airlock together as opposed to the main character hiding his or her homosexuality. i think you could get away the heroine being gay as long as there's a strong male hero, and her actions don't go into terrific detail and people would be cool with it, especially if you threw in a sexual tension even between them. on the flip side, a strong gay male protagonist, even glossing over sex with another male, i think you're going to have a hard time getting it the same shelves as piers anthony if the store knows about the content.
when i write, if sex comes up, it's dealt with in the way i think it's appropriate. i certainly don't shy away from it. gimme a hundred people in a real-life work scenario and i'll show you people having sex with one another, heh heh. so, from that standpoint, which tries to come from a practical skew, sex, to me, is as much of a natural premise as religion. of course, neither should just be thrown in there with reckless abandon without purpose. i think that's whay you were asking for in the last sentence, no? if not, i'm not sure if sex is ever the entire premise of many, if any, SF/F books, is it? i mean, it's not exactly very noble for the ragtag band of misfit warriors going off to kill the bad guy just so they can score with chicks afterwards, is it? lol.
i think it was always understood back in the day that the hero was going to get some *after* they sped away from the dying planet, beautiful mad scientist's daughter in tow. then you had captain kirk put on his boots after rolling out of bed, not to mention the controversial first inter-racial kiss ever on t.v.. and it's funny you gave examples that were all science fiction, which has seemed to advance far beyond fantasy's standards (advance or degrade, however you want to look at it, but i ask you, which genre is 'worth' more to an investor, SF or F?). is it safe to say there's more sex and sexuality in SF? is that something an editor might look for, and if it's too strong of a scene, is that something he'd want edited out?
in those examples you provided, i think it depends on the detail of the laison more than if it happened and was gone in the same paragraph. and i venture to say that lesbian acts are by far more acceptable than male/male acts, eh? there's also a difference between your side characters being caught in the airlock together as opposed to the main character hiding his or her homosexuality. i think you could get away the heroine being gay as long as there's a strong male hero, and her actions don't go into terrific detail and people would be cool with it, especially if you threw in a sexual tension even between them. on the flip side, a strong gay male protagonist, even glossing over sex with another male, i think you're going to have a hard time getting it the same shelves as piers anthony if the store knows about the content.
when i write, if sex comes up, it's dealt with in the way i think it's appropriate. i certainly don't shy away from it. gimme a hundred people in a real-life work scenario and i'll show you people having sex with one another, heh heh. so, from that standpoint, which tries to come from a practical skew, sex, to me, is as much of a natural premise as religion. of course, neither should just be thrown in there with reckless abandon without purpose. i think that's whay you were asking for in the last sentence, no? if not, i'm not sure if sex is ever the entire premise of many, if any, SF/F books, is it? i mean, it's not exactly very noble for the ragtag band of misfit warriors going off to kill the bad guy just so they can score with chicks afterwards, is it? lol.
i think it was always understood back in the day that the hero was going to get some *after* they sped away from the dying planet, beautiful mad scientist's daughter in tow. then you had captain kirk put on his boots after rolling out of bed, not to mention the controversial first inter-racial kiss ever on t.v.. and it's funny you gave examples that were all science fiction, which has seemed to advance far beyond fantasy's standards (advance or degrade, however you want to look at it, but i ask you, which genre is 'worth' more to an investor, SF or F?). is it safe to say there's more sex and sexuality in SF? is that something an editor might look for, and if it's too strong of a scene, is that something he'd want edited out?
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Ah, yeah. Heinlein. I forgot about him. The adolescent me thought he was cool. The adult me thought he was either obsessed or stuck rewriting the same book over and over again.
The racier he got the less I liked him. Sex in space, sex in the past, sex in the future, sex in alternate universes, sex in Oz, sex underwater, sex in Heaven, sex in Hell...did I miss any? God rest his soul, but man! Take the sex out of his later novels and you wind up with short stories.
I read SF to expand my mind, not my pants.
The racier he got the less I liked him. Sex in space, sex in the past, sex in the future, sex in alternate universes, sex in Oz, sex underwater, sex in Heaven, sex in Hell...did I miss any? God rest his soul, but man! Take the sex out of his later novels and you wind up with short stories.
I read SF to expand my mind, not my pants.
ROFLMAO! But wouldn't it be great if it could do both? hehe Seriously, I agree with what Kate said about the "shared readership"...those that want erotica will buy erotica and those who want fantasy will buy fantasy.Galoot said:
Of course, you may have to explain the word "fantasy" to some who are not familiar with the genre. I once told a friend's boyfriend that I wrote fantasy and he turned to her and said, "Oh, like the ones we read in bed?" EEEK! He was much less interested when he found out what I really wrote.
That's priceless.
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I think it was Stephen King who said "sex is always there." You can write about it, around it, over it, under it, but always keep in mind that people have sex in their minds, a lot of times, consciously and subconsciously. That includes your characters, and your readers. You can't avoid it. So use it to your advantage.
And sometimes it's good even if sex is only a motivation, a by-product, and not the end goals or results. Men could go to wars for sex, but not because of sex... Helen of Troy could launch a thousand ships, but probably no one got to sleep with her at all...
Now, how far do you go in any particular genre depends on the genre. Obviously there's quite a lot of sex in romance and erotica. And none in children's book... (but even Bambi has "sex"in it, if you think about it) I suspect that in fantasy/sci-fi you can push the envelope as well, as long as you don't step over the line for any particular publisher (if publication is your goal).
The question is: do you really want to see two hobbits getting it on?
And sometimes it's good even if sex is only a motivation, a by-product, and not the end goals or results. Men could go to wars for sex, but not because of sex... Helen of Troy could launch a thousand ships, but probably no one got to sleep with her at all...
Now, how far do you go in any particular genre depends on the genre. Obviously there's quite a lot of sex in romance and erotica. And none in children's book... (but even Bambi has "sex"in it, if you think about it) I suspect that in fantasy/sci-fi you can push the envelope as well, as long as you don't step over the line for any particular publisher (if publication is your goal).
The question is: do you really want to see two hobbits getting it on?
I'm not sure I can see Samwise Hamfast and Rosie Cotton in bed together!
But seriously, I think the discussion has gotten off track. Just because a novel has sex in it doesn't make it erotic, does it? The purpose of an erotic novel is to arouse sexual interest -- 'expand the pants' as skyi001 said so eloquently.
Other than that fantasy novel I mentioned (and can't remember the name of) I can't think of any SF or Fantasy novel that I would classify as erotic. Short fiction, however may be a different story.
I remember reading an anthology of short SF devoted to sex. I can't pull out the title, but I remember the cover. There was a naked woman with tubing all over her body and curled around her breasts. Anyone remember that? Some of those stories could be classified as erotic.
But seriously, I think the discussion has gotten off track. Just because a novel has sex in it doesn't make it erotic, does it? The purpose of an erotic novel is to arouse sexual interest -- 'expand the pants' as skyi001 said so eloquently.
Other than that fantasy novel I mentioned (and can't remember the name of) I can't think of any SF or Fantasy novel that I would classify as erotic. Short fiction, however may be a different story.
I remember reading an anthology of short SF devoted to sex. I can't pull out the title, but I remember the cover. There was a naked woman with tubing all over her body and curled around her breasts. Anyone remember that? Some of those stories could be classified as erotic.
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When you cross genre like that, one would ask is it really an erotica with SF/F elements in it, or is it a SF/F with erotic elements in it? It's all about focus. Certainly an erotica can be set anywhere, any time. I can see an erotica set in Hobbitland... if there's an audience for that (yes, there are people who think hobbits are sexy). But I think a real SF/F story is not about arousing people's sexual appetite. Certainly there can be scenes and elements of such, but I think I can say this with confidence: SF/F is not about sex, in general. Once you cross into sexually focused stories, I think you're writing erotica.
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