Is there a downside?

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Heath

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Is there a downside to doing POD while at the same time courting an agent?

I have a number of people wanting to read my book "when it's published," and I thought, why not just publish it by POD and keep looking for an agent. It would be out there, I could test the waters to some degree, and still proceed as I'm going.

Is there a downside to that strategy? I realize the book is already "out there," but I wouldn't be mentioning it to the agent unless it came up, and I would pull it off POD once I get represented.
 

veinglory

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You will have used first publication rights which is what most publishers want. And some agents are disdainful of self-publishing and won't even look at a self-POD book. Those would be the down sides, I should think.
 

Heath

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I suppose First Rights is an issue if they make it an issue, but from what I've read, it shouldn't be...at least for novels. So what if a few hundred copies have been printed already as long as the POD can be withdrawn/canceled? Maybe that's the nature of the beast though.
 

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I would advise against trying to work the book from both ends. If you want to self-pub you need to make sure you have the desire and willingness to go whole hog. If you only want the book "out there in the mean time" you may end up doing more damage than good. You do run the risk of alienating a number of agents and publishers (like veinglory stated) so I would make sure that you were very confident you could make some cash off of your early release.

If you go ahead with your plan you need to be very forthcoming about the status of your book from the get go. To hold back that kind of info may come back to haunt you.

If I were in your shoes I would make the people wait and try for an agent first. You can always self-pub later if you get tired of the whole process.
 

veinglory

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Even selling one copy to a member of the public would kill first rights, I should think--technically speaking.
 

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Even selling one copy to a member of the public would kill first rights, I should think--technically speaking.
Please correct me if I am wrong, but isn't "first rights" pertinent to magazines, and not as such to books? First rights are a big deal for magazines.

I'd still agree with the recommendation to give exclusive priority to agent/publisher, with some form of self-publishing or subsidy publishing as an eventual fall-back, if needed, in this case.

--Ken
 

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The Agent may google your book title........before you mention it's been self-published.
 

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Please correct me if I am wrong, but isn't "first rights" pertinent to magazines, and not as such to books? First rights are a big deal for magazines.

I'd still agree with the recommendation to give exclusive priority to agent/publisher, with some form of self-publishing or subsidy publishing as an eventual fall-back, if needed, in this case.

--Ken

First printing rights is for books

First serial rights is for magazines

It's basicly the same for both and I've heard publishers cross over and use just "first rights" for both books and magazines, as is been done here on this thread.

If you self-publish via POD than you have printed up this book's "first edition" and when you finally find an agent and the agent finally finds you a traditional publisher, you will only be able to offer "second edition" (aslo known as "reprint") rights. As a general rule, unless the book as sold over 10,000 copies a publisher will not buy second rights.

The average book sells just 500 copies. (at the average 4% royalty of wholesale price that averages out to : $1,000 - $1,500 total pay for you the author for the entire life of the book)

Rarely does a first book make over $2,000 for it's author.

The average life of a book is 3 months. (meaning the publisher pulls it off the shelves and stops selling it just 3 months after it went to print)

In order to keep you book in print past those 3 months it must become a "bestseller".

In order to become a bestseller, you must sell an astronomical total of 10,000 copies in that 3 months time.

Most publishers DO NOT promote your book. The books that become bestsellers, had an author that put a lot of their time and money into marketing the book themselves. Most books, regardless of publisher, sell only as many books as THE AUTHOR promotes. This is true wither you publish via Scholastic Books (with it's 100 new titles each month, including Harry Potter) or Twighlight Manor Press and it's 10 books every other year.

Basicly all a book publisher does is list your book in their catalog and hope that book stores choose to stock it on their shelves.

Books (such as Harry Potter -- traditional published--- and Eragon ---self-published---) get famous, not from the publisher's promotion, but from THE AUTHOR'S having gone out there and told everyone under the sun how great their book was and paying large amounts of their own money (we are talking hundreds of thousands of dollars of the author's private pocket money, mony they already had BEFORE book's release, in the case of such authors J.K.Rowlings, Palini, Steven King, etc.) for advertising in such newspapers as The New York Times. Eragon, a self published book, became an over night best seller because of a single one day full page ad in The New York Times, that cost Palini's parents over $14,000! Within a few weeks he had big name book publishers begging to sell the reprint editions.

So you see. What you the author are willing (or can afford) to pay for a marketing campaign, is going to determin how many book you sell, not who you choose for a publisher. Keep in mind that when you see ads for book, either in newspapers or on tv, those ads were paid for by the author him-herself, NOT the publisher.

Most writers, once hit in the face with the harsh reality of these facts, never attempt to write a second book, which is why there are so many one book authors out there.

On the other hand a self-published POD book never goes out of print and you earn 100% of the profits off the retail price.

If you are willing to promote and market your book hard enough, you'll make more money in the long run by self-publishing, because you can keep selling your book for the next 10 or 20 years.


If you want to do as you suggest and do both POD self publish AND traditional publish, than you MUST do it the other way around. Tradition publish first and POD later.

Your best bet is to hold off on the POD right now, and focus on finding that agent. Let the traditional publisher buy the first edition rights, get paid your advance and your royalties, let them sell the first edition, than next year after the book has gone out of print, you bring it back out as a POD reprint and continue to sell it for the rest of your life. (A lot of authors do this and after writing 4 or 5 books, they have a pretty steady monthly income coming in.)

I hope this helps.
 
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ResearchGuy

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. . . next year after the book has gone out of print, you bring it back out as a POD reprint and continue to sell it for the rest of your life. (A lot of authors do this and after writing 4 or 5 books, they have a pretty steady monthly income coming in.). . .
Care to name several? I am utterly incredulous of the claim.

--Ken
 

Heath

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"THE AUTHOR'S having gone out there and told everyone under the sun how great their book was and paying large amounts of their own money (we are talking hundreds of thousands of dollars of the author's private pocket money, mony they already had BEFORE book's release, in the case of such authors J.K.Rowlings, Palini, Steven King, etc.) for advertising..."

I'm not sure about the accuracy of this. I know Palini did this, but Stephen King and Rowlings were poor when their first books made it big. Unless you are talking about what they do right now that they are already rich and famous...

But very interesting stuff. I like hearing all these points of view.
 

Heath

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The main reason I was reversing the order (POD first, traditional next) was because I have many people interested in getting their hands on the book (but not 10,000!), and I wanted to at least make it available without shooting myself in the foot.
 

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The main reason I was reversing the order (POD first, traditional next) was because I have many people interested in getting their hands on the book (but not 10,000!), and I wanted to at least make it available without shooting myself in the foot.

What is your definition of "many"? The number of actual committed buyers of the "advanced edition" should have a large bearing on your decision. Pre-self-publishing is going to hinder your efforts at traditional placement. Is there enough money on the front side to cancel out the negative that may occur by going forward with your plan? Just something you will need to consider.
 
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Siddow

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Heath, you can get copies printed at Lulu.com and keep them private (not available for sale to anyone but you) and have your friends give you the cash to cover the cost of the book. All rights remain available, it's like it's never been 'published'. It's simply a way to get bound copies.
 

Birol

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That's a good question right now.
I suppose First Rights is an issue if they make it an issue, but from what I've read, it shouldn't be...at least for novels.

Why shouldn't it be an issue?

Most publishers DO NOT promote your book. The books that become bestsellers, had an author that put a lot of their time and money into marketing the book themselves. Most books, regardless of publisher, sell only as many books as THE AUTHOR promotes. This is true wither you publish via Scholastic Books (with it's 100 new titles each month, including Harry Potter) or Twighlight Manor Press and it's 10 books every other year.

This is not accurate. In the agent-publisher-writer paradigm, the writers' primary responsibility is to write.

The main reason I was reversing the order (POD first, traditional next) was because I have many people interested in getting their hands on the book (but not 10,000!), and I wanted to at least make it available without shooting myself in the foot.

How much interest is there really? Is there any way you can spin this in your cover letter to help you sign an agent or publisher?
 

Heath

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birol said:
"Why shouldn't it be an issue?"
Because:
1) You stop publication of the POD upon request
2) Chances are the audience is not tapped out upon a POD, or even close to that, so you still have the full audience to market to

So in other words, they're not really out anything financial-wise. If anything, word of mouth from the POD publishing may get around to actually help the sales. So what if it's "Second Edition"? That's never stopped me from buying a good book.

I guess I don't understand the financial imperative to getting First Publication Rights on a novel when it's only been in a POD format targeted to a limited audience. What I Googled said that it's not really that important (for a novel) but that it's sometimes made important depending on the agent/publisher.

james b38 said:
What is your definition of "many"? The number of actual committed buyers of the "advanced edition" should have a large bearing on your decision.
Mostly a network of people I know. For me, it's not really a financial issue. I have a good, well-paying job as an attorney, so I'm not expecting to become rich and famous on a POD. I just don't want to shoot myself in the foot for other opportunities, in which case all those wanting to read it now would just have to wait...
 

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The average book sells just 500 copies. (at the average 4% royalty of wholesale price that averages out to : $1,000 - $1,500 total pay for you the author for the entire life of the book)

Rarely does a first book make over $2,000 for it's author.

The average life of a book is 3 months. (meaning the publisher pulls it off the shelves and stops selling it just 3 months after it went to print)

<snip>
Most publishers DO NOT promote your book. The books that become bestsellers, had an author that put a lot of their time and money into marketing the book themselves. Most books, regardless of publisher, sell only as many books as THE AUTHOR promotes. .
Eelkat, if you're referring to POD/self published/vanity published books, then yes, most of them sell few copies and earn their authors little money.

But for books published by commercial publishers -- I don't know any of them above the small-press status that *don't* pay advances of >$2000, and most publishers do *not* pull books off shelves or stop selling them after three months. If a book sells poorly and the bookstore chooses to pull the leftover copies and return them, that's their decision, but publishers sell books when and where they can. Walk into any bookstore: I can guarantee you that the vast majority of the books on its shelves were released more than three months ago.

Author promotion is certainly desirable, and can enhance sales, but again, for books published by commercial presses, the majority of sales occur because of the publisher's marketing and distribution, *not* because of the author's promotional efforts.

POD and self publishing certainly has its place, but it's *not* equivalent to a commercial publisher's system with advances, large print runs, global distribution, etc.
 

veinglory

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It is an issue for a simple reason: look for how many agents and publishers take reprints. You have just made you task a good deal harder rather than easier.
 

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Mostly a network of people I know. For me, it's not really a financial issue. I have a good, well-paying job as an attorney, so I'm not expecting to become rich and famous on a POD. I just don't want to shoot myself in the foot for other opportunities, in which case all those wanting to read it now would just have to wait...

Since you don't need the $$$ I would make 'em wait. Doing a limited self-pub first may hinder your efforts to accomplish your real goal which is getting a deal done with a good agent or publisher.
 

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. . . most publishers do *not* pull books off shelves or stop selling them after three months. . . .
Welllllllllllllll . . . according to publishing industry memoirs I have read, the average first printing of a new book is 3,000 to 5,000 copies, and it is never reprinted, so actually they do. (One source was a noted publisher, Andre Schiffrin, and the other a bookseller and former publisher's rep. Lewis Buzbee.) The usual rotation is a few months and the unsold books are returned or remaindered. A whole new wave of books will be arriving to take their place. Some of course stay in print longer, reprinted from time to time, and some for a very long time. But on average, they do not stick around for long as there will be tens of thousands of new books published each year and room has to be made for them. You see, the thing is, what you see in the bookstore is what is IN the bookstore, not the tens of thousands of books that are NOT in the bookstore, or no longer in it. To revisit one of your comments, the vast majority of books published more than three months ago are not in bookstores. Study year-old issues of Publisher's Weekly and then look in a bookstore to see how many of those are still on the shelves. Very few, I'll wager.

Stop and think about it. Does the number of titles in a bookstore's stock grow and grow and grow without limit? No. Out with the old, in with the new, and some in steady-state because they keep on selling (Agatha Christie, anyone?). Mass market paperbacks rotate in and out like magazines (not all, but series romances, run of the mill science fiction, mysteries, and the like). Where do you think the remaindered book piles come from, or the discount selections at, say, Edward R. Hamilton ( http://www.edwardrhamilton.com/ )? Sure, some are the leftovers from a second, third, or further printing. Many are left from first and only printing. (But with a printing of only a few thousand, you'll probably never see the remainders. Too few to go far.)

Relatively few book authors can make a living at it. The ones who do are relentlessly productive (Robert B. Parker, John Lescroart, Janet Evanovich -- and the ones who grind out one mass market novel after another, leaving aside those who write one blockbuster every few years). You write three or four series romances a year that sell well and you probably do ok. But those things have the shelf life of yogurt.

Let's do the math here. Let's say 4,000 copies sell of a 5,000 copy first and only printing, priced at, say, $25. Royalty of ten percent on cover price (way higher than is typical these days, I believe, but good enough for estimating). That is $10,000 (probably less agent's 15%, for net $8,500). How many of those will you have to write and get published in a year to make a living these days? If it is a paperback original, the royalty numbers are a lot smaller (smaller percentage of a much smaller price), although the printing might be bigger.

Read the recent Writer's Digest Press book How I Got Published for first-hand views of what it is like. For most, years and years of effort and the writing of at least several books before the first was published.

None of this is an argument for self-publishing or POD publishing. Those have their own sets of issues, limitations, and ('tis true) opportunities.

My opinions and observations. YMMV.

--Ken
 
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Heath

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I think ResearchGuy is right. That's what I've read too. They put them on the shelves and then the publishers take them back if not sold after awhile.

Off topic, but straight book sales is not the only method of income. Trying to sell options to the books and similar efforts help financially for many moderately successful authors. John Grisham, for example, got Tom Cruise interested in The Firm before it was published and when his first book had been a bit of a failure.
 

Mac H.

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... after the book has gone out of print, you bring it back out as a POD reprint and continue to sell it for the rest of your life. (A lot of authors do this and after writing 4 or 5 books, they have a pretty steady monthly income coming in.). .

Care to name several? I am utterly incredulous of the claim.

--Ken
I suspect that it isn't making much money, but it does seem to be getting more common for older books that are out of print.

One popular author Lee Goldberg (who has no love of POD) used the "Back In Print" programs by the Author's Guild & the Mystery Writers of America. In both cases, previously published, out-of-print titles would be reprinted .. free-of-charge to the author.

I used those services to reprint my UNSOLD TELEVISION PILOTS book, which previously had only been available in a very expensive hardcover edition... and MY GUN HAS BULLETS, which never sold to paperback. In both cases, I was very pleased with my experience and I've been getting royalties .. on a regular, quarterly basis.

It's not big money... but it's money I wouldn't have seen otherwise if I hadn't taken advantage of the program. The Authors Guild still offers the Back In Print program, but I believe the Mystery Writers of America program has ended.

Mac
 
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Yes, bookstores rotate their stock. Yes, bookstores pull unsold books and return them. But as I stated before, contrary to EelKat's assertion, publishers do not pull books from the shelves and stop selling them. As long as the publisher has a copy, they'll sell it.
 

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Yes, bookstores rotate their stock. Yes, bookstores pull unsold books and return them. But as I stated before, contrary to EelKat's assertion, publishers do not pull books from the shelves and stop selling them. As long as the publisher has a copy, they'll sell it.
Yep. And typically after a few months they have remaindered or pulped any left over copies and the book goes out of print. Storage is not free, space not infinite, and tax laws (changed many years ago regarding this particular issue) work against keeping a stock of poorly selling books. Some books stay in print for a long time. Most do not.

--Ken
 

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I was about to suggest Lulu but Siddow got there before me :) Have you considered this, though? Using Lulu privately doesn't actually publish the book, it just binds it. I know quite a few people who use this simply for 'test' copies and for friends and family. If people really can't wait to get their hands on it, why don't you do it this way?
 

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Who on Earth told you that J.K. Rowling and Stephen King spent money promoting their own book?
 
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