Billy Graham on You Tube

Simple Living · Jan 6, 2008

I'm not a You Tube person. I tend to stay away from that site, just like I do sites like Facebook and MySpace. A friend of mine sent me a link to a Paul Washer service on YouTube and, after I watched it, I saw this clip of Billy Graham speaking to Robert Schueller, via satellite.

I couldn't believe what I heard him say. It sounds like Billy (and Robert) saying that Jesus is not the only way. I can be gullible when it comes to internet technology so I tried to consider the source, but...

What are your thoughts on this clip?

Simple Living · Jan 9, 2008

I hope I didn't offend anyone by creating this thread. It certainly wasn't my intention. I also didn't intend for it to be fodder for gossip. I posted it out of a sincere desire to know if I'm misunderstanding what he's saying in the video. It just sounds so unlike what he preaches at his crusades.

If moderators find this thread to be inappropriate for whatever reason, feel free to remove it. I'm just a little self-conscious about it now since nobody has responded.

BruceJ · Jan 9, 2008

Simple,

Not to worry. I can't speak for others, but your post didn't offend me. Billy Graham has done a lot of great work, but I don't know what his current state of affairs (mentally/emotionally/spiritually) is vis-a-vis his Parkinson's and meds. Don't know if he's really changed his mind, or isn't thinking clearly. I'm less surprised at Schueller's response, but, again, that's just me.

In short, I did view your post before, but just didn't know enough about where Graham is coming from and didn't want to react to a single sound byte.

CACTUSWENDY · Jan 9, 2008

And the same for me.

Not sure what to make of it.

Oh, and was not offended either. I just know enough not to jump to any opinions.

RumpleTumbler · Jan 9, 2008

Simple Living said:
I'm not a You Tube person. I tend to stay away from that site, just like I do sites like Facebook and MySpace.

I couldn't believe what I heard him say. It sounds like Billy (and Robert) saying that Jesus is not the only way. I can be gullible when it comes to internet technology so I tried to consider the source,

That was the most poorly done video I have ever seen on YouTube. The audio wasn't in sync and the holier than thou text in the beginning was blurry.

This is nothing new. Billy has been saying this for years. I don't know when this clip is from but the first time he said it was at least 10 years ago.

I don't think you'll see a vein popping, eye bulging, dripping fangs, shrieking Billy Graham anytime soon.

rugcat · Jan 9, 2008

I'm so sorry you find that clip disturbing. It makes me think more highly of Billy Graham, not less. It seems to me to be a message of God's love more than anything, and is quite affecting.

Of course, I'm not a Christian, but I know many devout Christians who would heartily agree with his sentiments.

Simple Living · Jan 9, 2008

rugcat said:
I'm so sorry you find that clip disturbing. It makes me think more highly of Billy Graham, not less. It seems to me to be a message of God's love more than anything, and is quite affecting.

Of course, I'm not a Christian, but I know many devout Christians who would heartily agree with his sentiments.

The reason the clip is disturbing is because the Bible isn't a pick and choose vending machine where you take what you like and leave the rest. That's believing in one's self, instead of God. The Bible clearly states that Jesus is the only way to God. That's Biblical Christianity. Anything else is not Christianity.

Each of us is responsible for our own decision. We can either accept or reject it, but that is the choice laid before every person.

RumpleTumbler · Jan 9, 2008

Simple Living said:
The reason the clip is disturbing is because the Bible isn't a pick and choose vending machine where you take what you like and leave the rest. That's believing in one's self, instead of God. The Bible clearly states that Jesus is the only way to God. That's Biblical Christianity. Anything else is not Christianity.

Each of us is responsible for our own decision. We can either accept or reject it, but that is the choice laid before every person.

Then you need to find William and go all Matthew 18: 15-18 on his fanny!

rugcat · Jan 9, 2008

Simple Living said:
That's Biblical Christianity. Anything else is not Christianity.

That is of course, your opinion, and you're welcome to it. Many devout Christians would disagree.

Gravity · Jan 9, 2008

Uh-oh. Got a feeling this is gonna turn real grim, real fast.

III · Jan 9, 2008

The topic he's addressing is deep and complex, so it's hard to know any of the subtleties of his perspective based on a 30 second sound byte. If I'm understanding correctly, he's talking about "those who seek, find" and the type of "saving faith" that's found in Hebrews 11. The idea is that Jesus paid the price for the sins of those who respond to God with faith, and who seek him and find him.

I see in Scripture that having a personal relationship with Jesus is the highest form of fulfilment and assurance. It's the greatest gift that we can share with the world. But I also think there are millions of people in the world who are in the same boat as the Hebrews 11 folks who lived before Jesus even walked the earth. They can participate in a genuine relationship with God through faith.

Jesus is absolutely the cornerstone and the atoning sacrifice and ultimately the King, but I think his grace and his plan is so much bigger and nuanced than we even begin to guess at. I think that's what Billy is saying and I'd agree with him. The thing is, I really don't know anyone else's heart. All I can do is pursue my own relationship and love others deeply and encourage them towards the highest goal. God will work out everything in the end.

Simple Living · Jan 9, 2008

rugcat said:
That is of course, your opinion, and you're welcome to it. Many devout Christians would disagree.

Factually, it's not just my opinion. It is what the Bible says. The Bible isn't concerned about political correctness and everyone being comfortable. It tells it like it is:

2 Corinthians 11:14 shows us that Satan masquerades as an angel of light (as good).

1 Peter 5:8 says that anyone who follows his ways are an enemy of God. Satan's not against people being good. He's against Jesus. When scripture is twisted to suit a person's beliefs, which is the equivalent of being under Satan's control. This is explained in 2 Corinthians 4:4.

Romans 3:23 says that nobody is good enough to get into heaven on their own. No one. And, since every person has sinned, none of us are qualified to get into heaven. It's not a matter of our good outweighing our bad because everyone's a loser in that category, too. (Romans 11:6) No one can earn their way into heaven. (Titus 3:5)

Matthew 7:13 says that there is "only one" entrance into heaven. The narrow gate.

Ephesians 2:1-3 says this of true Christians:

Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins. You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil—the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God. All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God’s anger, just like everyone else.

When the earth was created, it was perfect. Adam's sin (one sin) caused it, and all those who followed after him) to be imperfect. Because God is a just God, He must judge sin.

But, being a loving God, He created the way we could be united with Him again (John 3:16). Romans 6:23 tells us what the penalty for sin is and what that way back to God is: For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.

Not through our own works, our own goodness (which none of us has anyway), through kindness, through our own beliefs, through reincarnation or through any of the other gods. It's through Jesus alone. One way. Jesus alone bridged the gap between us and God through His sacrifice on the cross.

"And this is the way to have eternal life - to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth" (John 17:3).

It's not even just believing in God. Satan and his demons believe in God, but they won't be in heaven. But to receive salvation, we must turn to God, form a personal relationship, turn away from our sins, and follow Him.

"We are made right in God's sight when we trust in Jesus Christ to take away our sins. And we all can be saved in this way, no matter who we are or what we have done" (Romans 3:22).

In John 14:6, Jesus says, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me." He didn't say "a way, a truth, and a life."

“Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12).

This is Biblical Christianity. It's factual. This is the choice facing every person and all are responsible for the choice they make. Calling a different form of it "Christianity" doesn't make it so.

rugcat · Jan 9, 2008

Simple Living said:
This is Biblical Christianity. It's factual. This is the choice facing every person and all are responsible for the choice they make. Calling a different form of it "Christianity" doesn't make it so.

You are entirely missing my point. Many Christians believe that the Bible is the infallible and literal word of God. Many more do not. Asserting that they are therefore not true Christians is insulting to those Christians who take a different view from your particular view on the matter.

Clearly, you have defined "Christian" as one who believes in Biblical innerancy. Those who simply accept Jesus Christ as the Son Of God are not, if they do not subscribe to your particular views. Your beliefs are faith, not fact.

Again, you are obviously entitled to your religious views. but describing them as fact is a tautology.

"The Bible is infallible and the ultimate truth."

"How do you know that?"

Because the Bible tells me so."

There's no point arguing this -- no one's mind is going to be changed.

But I imagine your rebuttal will be to quote more Bible verses.

Simple Living · Jan 9, 2008

rugcat said:
You are entirely missing my point. Many Christians believe that the Bible is the infallible and literal word of God. Many more do not. Asserting that they are therefore not true Christians is insulting to those Christians who take a different view from your particular view on the matter.

Clearly, you have defined "Christian" as one who believes in Biblical innerancy. Those who simply accept Jesus Christ as the Son Of God are not, if they do not subscribe to your particular views. Your beliefs are faith, not fact.

Again, you are obviously entitled to your religious views. but describing them as fact is a tautology.

"The Bible is infallible and the ultimate truth."

"How do you know that?"

Because the Bible tells me so."

There's no point arguing this -- no one's mind is going to be changed.

But I imagine your rebuttal will be to quote more Bible verses.

For the part of your post in bold, I didn't miss your point. For someone to believe the Bible is fallible in any way, gives them absolutely nothing concrete to believe in. It's like building a house upon sand, instead of a sure foundation. If the Bible is fallible, who's to say which part is and which part isn't? It's picking and choosing what they like. Again, that's believing in themselves, not the gospel.

I agree that there are many, many who believe that the Bible is fallible. They are not Biblical Christians. They've pieced together their own brand of Christianity, that doesn't exist in the Bible, to fit their own desires.

The Bible says in Matthew that Christians are the salt of the earth. Salt contains properties that make it salt. If you take some of those properties away and add other things to it, you may end up with a fine thing but it's not salt anymore. It's something else. See what I'm saying? The Bible is clear in it's definition, and test, of Christianity. If someone takes away from, or adds to, that, it's not Christianity anymore. It's something else.

It's not a matter of my insulting people who believe the Bible is fallible or not. I'm merely stating what the Bible says. If someone believes that the scriptures I quoted are fallible, then their issue is with God, not me. I'm just the messenger. God is the Author. I'm stating what the scripture says and I believe it. That's what Biblical Christianity is, believing the Bible to be the infallible Word of God.

Of course I'm going to quote scripture. If I wanted to understand my car's engine, I would read the manual, wouldn't I?

rugcat · Jan 9, 2008

This is not a productive discussion. I'll bow out.

BruceJ · Jan 9, 2008

rugcat said:
Of course, I'm not a Christian, but I know many devout Christians who would heartily agree with his sentiments.

Just curious: who/what determined that these people were devout Christians?

Oops...never mind. I just noticed that you left. Sorry to step in.

Simple Living · Jan 9, 2008

rugcat said:
This is not a productive discussion. I'll bow out.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I was enjoying our discussion. It's not often you see people of opposing views discussing an issue calmly and respectfully. I appreciated that.

Viewpoints being discussed are productive in my book. Thanks for the chat.

ETA: Here's a video (or audio if anyone wants) that talks about this very subject, who is biblically a Christian and who isn't. It does so much better than I ever could. It's eye-opening.

III · Jan 9, 2008

I'm definitely one of the "infalable literal word of God" types, but I still agree in a broad sense with Billy Graham's view. Take this passage in Acts:

Acts 17:26 - 27 From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.

I think that says it all. Everyone has the opportunity to seek God and find him and he's close to everyone. That includes those who are born in cultures where the name of Jesus is never even heard. That's God's choice. That's His plan.

I admit, it's too big for me to wrap my mind around, but I trust that God is loving and gracious and can graft anyone he wants to into the tree of life. It's not dependant on knowledge. My knowledge of Jesus is so limited, someone like the Apostle John could say "you don't even know who he really is!" My knowledge of God is infinitesimal. But I respond to God's working in my heart. I reach out in faith and participate in his love which is all made possible through Jesus.

RumpleTumbler · Jan 10, 2008

Simple Living said:
This is Biblical Christianity. It's factual. This is the choice facing every person and all are responsible for the choice they make. Calling a different form of it "Christianity" doesn't make it so.

Biblical Christianity is also your going to Billy and calling him out on it. I already pointed that out. I'm doing so again. Get off your high horse and go see him if you're really 'burdened' about it. It is your duty as a part of the body of Christ. If you want the 'scripture' for that I'll give you that as well.

That assumes of course that Billy has done something wrong. Only you seem to think he needs correcting.

Simple Living · Jan 10, 2008

RumpleTumbler said:
Biblical Christianity is also your going to Billy and calling him out on it. I already pointed that out. I'm doing so again. Get off your high horse and go see him if you're really 'burdened' about it. It is your duty as a part of the body of Christ. If you want the 'scripture' for that I'll give you that as well.

That assumes of course that Billy has done something wrong. Only you seem to think he needs correcting.

First of all, your hostility is not called for.
Secondly, I never said I was 'burdened' about it so do not add to my words.
Thirdly, if I had access to Billy Graham, I would have no problem asking him about it as I did here.
Fourthly, that's what I did here... asked for clarification to see if I misconstrued something. You're the one who added words, emotions and actions to my words that weren't there.

Roger J Carlson · Jan 10, 2008

Everybody will calm down now.

RumpleTumbler · Jan 10, 2008

Simple Living said:
First of all, your hostility is not called for.
Secondly, I never said I was 'burdened' about it so do not add to my words.
Thirdly, if I had access to Billy Graham, I would have no problem asking him about it as I did here.
Fourthly, that's what I did here... asked for clarification to see if I misconstrued something. You're the one who added words, emotions and actions to my words that weren't there.

You were the one touting Biblical Christianity.

The admonition is to go to your "brother" in private isn't it?

I'm guessing shouting about it on a message board read by thousands of people and accessible to everyone on the planet with an internet connection isn't very private.

If you want Biblical Christianity I'll hold ya to it.

Roger J Carlson · Jan 10, 2008

Let me remind everyone that for the purposes of this board, a person is a Christian if they say they are a Christian. So definitions of what is Biblical Christianity and what is not Biblical Christianity are counter productive. If that's all that's left of this discussion, I'll close the thread.

Roger J Carlson · Jan 10, 2008

For what it's worth, the video is entirely disingenuous. Billy Graham never "denied Christ is the only way" nor did he say that "people can get to heaven another way than through Jesus Christ". He said that "everyone who loves Christ or knows Christ, whether they are concious of it or not, are members of the body of Christ."

Certainly Jesus said that "no man come unto the Father except by me", but what exactly does it mean to "come to Christ"? That's the crux of the argument. Some people believe you have to belong to a certain denomination to be a Christian. Others believe you have to "accept Jesus as your personal savior". Still others believe you must be slain in the Spirit. But what does the bible say?

Hebrews 11 talks about a lot of people (Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Rahab, David...) who were justified by their faith, even though they had never heard the name of Jesus. Others like Rahab (Joshua 2,1-21; Hebrews 11,31), Naaman the Syrian (2 Kings 5,1-19; Luke 4,27), Melchizedek (Genesis 14,17-20; 7,2,15-17) and Jethro, the father-in-law of Moses (Exodus 18), were saved although they didn’t even belong to the people of Israel.

Graham is saying that it is possible to come to Christ without even knowing his name. Biblically correct according to Hebrews.

Through all of this, the justification comes through Jesus, who knows our hearts, not just our exterior. We'd do well to stop trying to decide for Him who is saved and who is not, and concentrate instead on loving others.

RumpleTumbler · Jan 10, 2008

Roger J Carlson said:
For what it's worth, the video is entirely disingenuous. Billy Graham never "denied Christ is the only way" nor did he say that "people can get to heaven another way than through Jesus Christ". He said that "everyone who loves Christ or knows Christ, whether they are concious of it or not, are members of the body of Christ."

Certainly Jesus said that "no man come unto the Father except by me", but what exactly does it mean to "come to Christ"? That's the crux of the argument. Some people believe you have to belong to a certain denomination to be a Christian. Others believe you have to "accept Jesus as your personal savior". Still others believe you must be slain in the Spirit. But what does the bible say?

Hebrews 11 talks about a lot of people (Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Rahab, David...) who were justified by their faith, even though they had never heard the name of Jesus. Others like Rahab (Joshua 2,1-21; Hebrews 11,31), Naaman the Syrian (2 Kings 5,1-19; Luke 4,27), Melchizedek (Genesis 14,17-20; 7,2,15-17) and Jethro, the father-in-law of Moses (Exodus 18), were saved although they didn’t even belong to the people of Israel.

Graham is saying that it is possible to come to Christ without even knowing his name. Biblically correct according to Hebrews.

Through all of this, the justification comes through Jesus, who knows our hearts, not just our exterior. We'd do well to stop trying to decide for Him who is saved and who is not, and concentrate instead on loving others.

Tis true.

Billy Graham on You Tube

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