women write better women books

Firstly, I am a man, so take from that what you will in my following post:



I have two things to say in reply. First, my fiancee agrees with you. She only enjoys books written about women and by women. She says that men don't and can't write from a women's p.o.v. She likes to read stories with women protagonists because she likes to put herself in their role.

Second, I think in older times, it was more apparent who was a woman writer and who was a man writer, in terms of literature anyway. I read through most of Bronte's Wuthering Heights convinced the narrarator was a woman simply because Bronte's style was womanly. Jane Austen is also an uncloseted woman writer. But nowadays, women write in the same style as men, because editors want a certain kind of publication.

Then again, my fiancee still can't enjoy books written by men, particularly about women.

And I have to say, I was thinking about this question earlier today, but taking it further, "Has anyone ever written about a black woman's experience who is not herself a black woman?"

In general I'd say it is a challenge for a man to write from a woman's perspective. But it's not impossible and some male writers do beautifully. So I think it really depends on the writer. For example, Larry McMurtry has given us some really outstanding female characters. King's Misery and Carrie also rang true. On the other hand, I couldn't get into Nick Horby's female protagonist in "How to be Good" because she reads like a man. She doesn't ring true to me.

My partner (male) said the same thing about How to be Good, Maestro.

For me, this generalisation doesn't hold water. A talented male writer is going to write better women characters than a ham-fisted female writer. An empathic male writer with a gift for observation is going to write better women characters than an insular female writer who blocks out the rest of the world. I guess that you could say that a female writer will have something of a head start on female characters than an equally capable male writer, and vice versa for the male characters. But then, gender is a relatively small part of character IMO so I don't think the advantage is likely to be decisive in a large number of cases. Physical aspects are a slightly different matter, I guess, but then writers can always ask members of the opposite sex about them, and there's still a tremendous variety of experience that there's room for some creative invention, I think.

But don't mind me. I hate all generalisations!!!

Women

writersliving said:

I think women write better books about women, because we are really in the shoes of a women. men all they do is write about how they think being a women is. they don't know really how it is. that's why I think people like Eric jermone dickey. who write alot about relonships and cheating. he don't really know how it can make a women feel. we do so we can write plenty better books about us.

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I don't think this is true in any way. That's like saying women writers should include male characters in their books because they aren't men and don't know how men really feel.

I know exactly how women feel because they tell me and show me. If you can't write convicingly about the opposite gender, you can't write at all, whether you're a man or a woman.

All male writers use female characters, and alll female writers use male characters. We're all human, and any good writer can write well about the opposite gender.

Count_LeCo said:

And I have to say, I was thinking about this question earlier today, but taking it further, "Has anyone ever written about a black woman's experience who is not herself a black woman?"

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Yes. It's been done many, many times.

This is...

... unmitigated rubbish, I think. The truly great writers can write convincing characters of either sex. I doubt that anyone who did not know the gender of George Eliot would read Middemarch and conclude, "Aha! Chick lit."

Sappho could have been a man. Browning could have been a woman (Robert, I mean; though I suppose that his wife could have been a man just as easily).

(This post is sounding increasingly unsavoury).

A bad male writer has no more hope of creating a realistic male than he has of writing convincingly from a woman's point of view, I think.

I agree with Niggle: I hate all generalisations!!!

I remember reading The Collector by John Fowles, where the first half of the book is His POV (the main character) and the second half is Her POV (his captive) - both were equally riveting reading.

I agree that the initial assertion in this thread is rubbish.

However, I think it's also interesting to think about how much expectation and biases affect the perception of stories. If you pick up a book and see the gender of the author on it, you already go into the reading of that book with certain biases and expectations related to gender that will affect your perception of that book, whether you realize it or not.

For instance, if an author (like Thomas Wolfe or Nicholas Sparks) wrote under a female pseudonym and the females never knew it was a male writing these stories about strong, complex, romantic, emotional female characters, would the skeptical female know that a man had written it, if that man was a truly gifted writer?

I doubt it.

Same goes for a gifted female author writing a generally "male dominated" genre (such as sci fi or horror) under a male name. Would the males be able to tell?

Also doubtful.

If Anne Rice had published all of her vamp stories under a male name, would a male reader have been able to tell it was a female author?

If John Grisham or Steven King published their most successful stories under female pseudonyms, would the females have been able to tell?

I say "no" in both cases.

There are writers of both genders who write very well in genres regarded to be "opposite" their gender.

Just proves that it's really about skill, not sex.

Men writing women's first-person POV

I submit that Jonathan Carroll's Bones of the Moon is an excellent, excellent example of a man writing a novel from a female first-person point of view. There were a good three or four points in the book where I caught myself saying things out loud like, "Yes! That's exactly how it is!" I kept flipping back to the cover, and the back-cover author photo, to remind myself that the author was male.

I find myself wondering why this thread was started in the first place. I mean, if the initiating post were along the lines of, "Hey, I'm male, but I have this great idea for a story from a woman's point of view; do y'all think it can be done?" well, I wouldn't bat an eye. Or an "I," considering the first-person POV such a writer might want to use. Or, "Hey, what do y'all think about cross-gender POV?" to start a discussion. But that doesn't seem to have been the case.

writersliving, were you just venting, or hoping to discourage male writers from even trying, or did you just word your conversation starter infelicitously? I ask, because broad proclamations about what half the population can't do tend to bring out the surly side in me, and I would like to think I was rendered surly for a good reason.

As a woman I write almost exclusively from male POV, so I certainly hope it isn't true. I think they idea that you can only write what you are seriously under-estimates wht fiction is -- for reader and writer!

It's almost a definition of a fiction writer's job to be able to write about things he or she has not directly experienced. There's plenty of convincing fantasy by those who've never ridden a dragon, plenty of great mysteries by folks who aren't murderers, and so on.

Having direct experience of being a woman, or black, or riding dragons might make it easier to get into the heads of your characters, but doesn't make the story inherently better.

Writers observe. Clearly we can all observe women -- a whole range of women. And write about them.

In odd instances this may hold a little water

Can a man accurately display the proper passion and ire of a woman, say, with PMS after breaking a nail and getting dumped by an imbecile she was planning on leaving that afternoon all the while searching and clawing for that mythical red leather Coach bag to charge on his credit card during the short span of her lunch break from a distressing corporate gig she'll never leave?

I'm not sure.

Could I, as a male writer, really get into running around stores for the perfect purse, down to the last pad and virtually homicidal from the only time the other sex got one over on my more sane than I make appear female character?

It's all so irrelevant and meaningless. I'm going to the bar.

Maybe there are two sides.

Well I have always suspected so many of the writers of romantic novels you know the ones at Walmart are written by men. Especially those graphic sexaul scenes on every other page. But some men can get into a woman's perspective and it may be that they run a scenario by a female that they know. I know to write a man's role that I pick the brain of my husband especially in the law enforcement field or I just sit back and watch a strong character such as a sexy surgeon in my opinion work. So I make friends with men that I consider to be intelligent and ask questions. The same is true if they are asking me what a woman would say in a situation where we are both creating a scene between two strong willed characters. The PMS thing is definetly something that a woman knows but then the man knows how to do a karate hold for a fight scene so it goes both ways.

"How do you write women so well?"

"I think of a man...and I take away reason and accountability."

Julie Benz and Jack Nicholson in "As Good as it Gets."

So many people on Internet discussion boards have called me "he" that I wonder whether my prose style is masculine, if there is such a thing as a masculine style. (I'm a she.) Of course, male is still the default sex even though we got the vote and all, so maybe their mistake was only an unthinking assumption.

There is an online form somewhere that judges gender from a writing sample -- it picked me as male. I also have people in forums assuming I am a guy all the time. not that it bothers me...

veinglory said:

There is an online form somewhere that judges gender from a writing sample -- it picked me as male. I also have people in forums assuming I am a guy all the time. not that it bothers me...

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That's a good one! On another forum, I use my initials. Everyone who responds assumes I'm male.

Anyway, I write from male and female POV. My short stories that have been published are from both POV.

online handles

Since high school, I have used the handle "vortexae" from time to time. (Usually "Vortex" was taken.) And from time to time, I have been called "V-man" for it. It amuses me.

Men/women

I think the problem is in thinking that a woman knows how women think and react, or that a man knows how men think and react. All any of us know is how we react on a personal level. Everythng else is observation.

Find a hundred women who are cheated on, and you'll find a hundred and one different emotions and reactions. Same with PMS. No two women react to PMS exactly the same.

And all men are individuals, as well.

If you can't write well about anyone through interaction and observation, you're in deep trouble as a writer, regardless of gender.

For my part, I did rather respond to She's Come Undone. And I've happily only read works that I thought were particularly well done, which include women-writing-men, and men-writing-women. I must be lucky in my reading. IMO, when you draw a gender line, you get an overly obvious effort to create a character type based on a stereotype, rather than creating a character.

Judy T. Lloyd said:

Well I have always suspected so many of the writers of romantic novels you know the ones at Walmart are written by men. Especially those graphic sexaul scenes on every other page. .

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Books sold at Wal-Mart are bad? I'm not sure that's what you meant, but it sounded that way. Why don't you think women would write graphic sexual scenes?

Yes, Wally Lamb did a great job with the novel, She's Come Undone. The narrator is a young woman. You would swear a woman wrote this book.

I agree that it is a challenge for a writer to get into a member of the opposite sex's skin, but if you're good you can do it.