Don't forget to say thank you to someone who helps you.

writerterri · Jan 4, 2008

Twice I've taken the time to help people out and read their stuff and both times I've gotten no thank you.

It's polight even if you don't mean it.

Thank you.

L M Ashton · Jan 4, 2008

Six times for me in the last two weeks (not in SYW, though). One came back with a thank you and more questions, which I answered but received no further acknowledgement after that, and one other said thank you. The other four? Not a word. Not an acknowledgement. Nothing.

Do you really think this motivates us to keep helping other people?

We're not asking for awards or chocolate or money, even. Just a simple "Thank you." Those two words are all that's needed. After all, a critique was requested and then given. We, like everyone else, have limited time. We could have spent that time doing any number of other things, like earning money or making brownies or snuggling with our significant others or write. Instead, out of the (for most of us) kindness of our hearts, we critiqued your stuff.

Even if you didn't like what we said, it's still polite to say "Thank you" even if it's just for spending that time on your stuff.

Thank you, Terri, for bringing this up.

Fantasywriter · Jan 4, 2008

Excellent post. There have been times when I gave a critique and received nothing in return—nothing. I assumed my comments had either been totally unhelpful or possibly even offensive. Yet when I followed up with something like, ‘Did you receive the comments and critique I sent your way?’ in every case I got back something like, ‘Yes, I got them. It was one of the best critiques I ever received.’ At which point I’m trying to pick my jaw up off my keyboard. The only conclusion I can draw is that a lot of writers are simply unaware that saying ‘thank you’ is not only polite, but is a simple act of consideration as well.

Maryn · Jan 4, 2008

It makes me seem petty (or pettier), but "Thank you" isn't even enough.

I'm become pretty freakin' stingy with critique online, even here. If I spend hours going over someone's manuscript noting mistakes, weaknesses, questions, and such, and even throw in lessons on lay-lie, punctuation with direct addresses, and format, all couched in a written critique rich with humor and encouragement, I feel like I've earned more than a two-work acknowledgment. I want indication that the recipient values the time, effort, and expertise, such as it is, that went into the critique.

Don't get me wrong--I've received that sort of response many times here. But the times when my four hours is not acknowledged at all, or merits only two words, or is countered with defensiveness or hostility, makes me loath to critique again for months.

In recent times, I tend to critique online only at AW and only for people who are not new here and whose paths have crossed mine enough that I have at least some feel for who they are. A new arrival doesn't get that big a chunk of my time, not even if s/he PMs me asking.

Maryn, selfish be-yatch

Jersey Chick · Jan 4, 2008

I've done a few crits here and, for the most part, the posters have been good about thanking me.

But...

There was one I did (as a personal request from the poster) that took a bit longer than I thought it would, because my husband had gone into the hospital unexpectedly and things got crazy in my little world. I managed to squeeze in the time to do a thorough crit (as opposed to just PMing to say I probably should pass on it at the time), and took my time with it because it wouldn't be fair to be lazy (and I'm a damn nice person to boot

.) I felt bad because I said I'd have it done over a weekend, and that same weekend was when my husband wound up in the hospital, so it took me about two weeks instead.

Never heard one word about it after the fact. Nothing. Makes me wonder why I bothered at all, actually. Which sucks because I generally don't mind doing crits.

citymouse · Jan 4, 2008

I always tell my betas that along with my thanks I'll send them a signed copy of the book they worked on (I have three out). Some readers offer services just to get a look at your book. Most often these people drag their feet until I give up on them. Those who work at the job and make the book better, are included in my acknowledgments.

C

RainbowDragon · Jan 4, 2008

Jersey Chick said:
I've done a few crits here and, for the most part, the posters have been good about thanking me.

But...

There was one I did (as a personal request from the poster) that took a bit longer than I thought it would, because my husband had gone into the hospital unexpectedly and things got crazy in my little world. I managed to squeeze in the time to do a thorough crit (as opposed to just PMing to say I probably should pass on it at the time), and took my time with it because it wouldn't be fair to be lazy (and I'm a damn nice person to boot .) I felt bad because I said I'd have it done over a weekend, and that same weekend was when my husband wound up in the hospital, so it took me about two weeks instead.

Never heard one word about it after the fact. Nothing. Makes me wonder why I bothered at all, actually. Which sucks because I generally don't mind doing crits.

Was it a time-sensitive piece? For a novel a few weeks is a drop in the bucket and shouldn't make much difference. Either way, I'll say thanks on their behalf. Sounds very nice of you not to have just declined under the circumstances.

Jersey Chick · Jan 4, 2008

If it was, the poster never said so and I let him/her (I don't know which going by username) know as soon as I got home that first night. As things played out, and I knew he'd be in longer, I made sure to let him/her know that it had really dropped on my list of priorities at that moment.

Thanks, though. Like I said, I generally don't mind doing them - especially if someone's taken the time out to PM me to ask me to do it.

L M Ashton · Jan 4, 2008

I was thinking more about this yesterday, and really, it extends to elsewhere, too.

How many times have people posted a question in a forum here, received countless replies, and never returned to say thank you? Granted, it takes less time than a critique, especially of the kind Jersey Chick is talking about, but still, a thank you would be nice. It's tiring enough answering the same question every two weeks or even saying "it's been asked already - check the archives" or "do a search" or "there's a thread about it in this forum". It gets tiring.

To me, it's all the same problem - expecting other people to do your work for you while you just sit back and do nothing for yourself cuz you can't be bothered to do so much as a search or say thank you when someone gives you the answer or points you in the right direction. It's an attitude, and it's not just in this forum - it's everywhere here and honestly, probably everywhere everywhere else.

I think I'm just getting too old.

Maryn, I agree entirely with what you're saying. Entirely. What I was saying is that "Thank you" should be the absolute bare minimum, and we're not getting even that.

Jersey Chick · Jan 4, 2008

Yeah, I think I'm getting old, too.

I totally agree.

skelly · Jan 5, 2008

citymouse said:
I always tell my betas that along with my thanks I'll send them a signed copy of the book they worked on (I have three out). Some readers offer services just to get a look at your book. Most often these people drag their feet until I give up on them. Those who work at the job and make the book better, are included in my acknowledgments.

C

It is not always "feet dragging," though. I'm currently reading for another writer and since I began working on his manuscript I have had a series of disasters and the Christmas holidays, all on top of the normal day-to-day crap that life dishes out. Sometimes you just get overwhelmed,

On the "thank you" issue, I can see what Maryn is saying, but for the most part a simple "thank you" is enough. It is certainly preferable to some of the snippy comments that I have received from people who were not particularly happy with my critique. As well, if I beta read your manuscript I think you should be prepared to offer the same service, either to me or to some other writer.

Maryn · Jan 5, 2008

That's a good point, Scott. For instance, I beta read a very good thriller, and the author thanked me profusely and offered to return the favor. However, what I've got going now is in another genre, so I asked him to just beta for someone else in lieu of mine.

Tangential question: Has anyone else found that critique of the first 30 pages or so shows so clearly what the writer's weaknesses are that further critique seems pointless? I never know quite what to do about that.

Maryn, morphing into the old woman who shakes her broom at the neighborhood kids on their bikes

Jersey Chick · Jan 5, 2008

I don't think I've critted more than 30 pages, but I have judged in contests where the first ten pages were so painful that I didn't want to read the rest. And I don't mean a bad story, necessarily, but one loaded with grammatical and puntuation errors. And don't even get me started on the head-hopping.

citymouse · Jan 5, 2008

Skelly, I was thinking of the few people who had no issues to hamper them. One begged my MS from me only to say three months later that he was tweaking his remarks. That was two years ago. The book is selling well and I have yet to get his remarks. I did cc him on the email I sent my other readers telling them their signed copies were on their way. He never inquired where his copy was. He knew I was pissed.

I had another who read for me but didn't return her remarks to me. This person said she didn't realize I wanted any feed back! My request list was sent to her and she replied that it was do able. Go figure.

Your request for same service is well taken. Recently I read four short stories for a fellow asking only that he read my novel and if he liked it, please review it for me. The guy agreed. That was ages ago. That said, I continue to read for writers when I'm not writing myself.

C

skelly said:
It is not always "feet dragging," though. I'm currently reading for another writer and since I began working on his manuscript I have had a series of disasters and the Christmas holidays, all on top of the normal day-to-day crap that life dishes out. Sometimes you just get overwhelmed,

On the "thank you" issue, I can see what Maryn is saying, but for the most part a simple "thank you" is enough. It is certainly preferable to some of the snippy comments that I have received from people who were not particularly happy with my critique. As well, if I beta read your manuscript I think you should be prepared to offer the same service, either to me or to some other writer.

skelly · Jan 6, 2008

Maryn said:
That's a good point, Scott. For instance, I beta read a very good thriller, and the author thanked me profusely and offered to return the favor. However, what I've got going now is in another genre, so I asked him to just beta for someone else in lieu of mine.

Tangential question: Has anyone else found that critique of the first 30 pages or so shows so clearly what the writer's weaknesses are that further critique seems pointless? I never know quite what to do about that.

Maryn, morphing into the old woman who shakes her broom at the neighborhood kids on their bikes

Oh my...yes. This has only happened to me once, and I finally decided that it would be a waste of both our time for me to keep saying the same things over and over. I felt like a heel, but I explained that to the writer as best I could. The response was not impolite, but decidedly frosty.

I'll slog through poor grammar and punctuation, if I have to, but there are certain issues (plausibility is one of the main ones; dull, uninteresting, or falsely motivated characters come in a close second) that can render a manuscript unreadable. If I just can't get into the story, or am unable to suspend disbelief, or both (usually), I say so and drop the project. I don't think anyone stands to gain much from listening to me bitch through 300 plus pages of their manuscript

skelly · Jan 6, 2008

citymouse said:
Skelly, I was thinking of the few people who had no issues to hamper them. One begged my MS from me only to say three months later that he was tweaking his remarks. That was two years ago. The book is selling well and I have yet to get his remarks. I did cc him on the email I sent my other readers telling them their signed copies were on their way. He never inquired where his copy was. He knew I was pissed.

I had another who read for me but didn't return her remarks to me. This person said she didn't realize I wanted any feed back! My request list was sent to her and she replied that it was do able. Go figure.

Your request for same service is well taken. Recently I read four short stories for a fellow asking only that he read my novel and if he liked it, please review it for me. The guy agreed. That was ages ago. That said, I continue to read for writers when I'm not writing myself.

C

I see. I agree with you completely, and it is probably worth noting that if you DO offer to beta read someone's story, I don't think it's too much to ask that you update the writer occasionally as to how things are coming along. I've been trying to do that with my current writer, but things have been so crazy lately that I fear he's losing patience with me. The whole process works best when writers don't get too pushy, and readers don't get too supercilious and condescending.

I'm wandering a bit afield of the original discussion. Sorry

althrasher · Jan 7, 2008

To quote a very wise teacher of mine:

"Remember to thank people. The people you thank might forget you, but the people you don't thank will NEVER forget you."

I've never gotten burned doing a crit, though. I declined someone who seemed a little snobby, but I've never had much more problem.

dolores haze · Jan 7, 2008

althrasher said:
"... but the people you don't thank will NEVER forget you."

So true. If I don't get a simple thank you for my time and effort, that individual will never again be the recipient of my time and effort.

Having said that, though, these ill mannered people have been far outshadowed by the profuse thank yous and offers to reciprocate that I've recieved. The people who are genuinely appreciate of your efforts make it all worthwhile.

kristie911 · Jan 8, 2008

I've beta'ed for a couple different people on this board and have gotten profuse thank-you's, offers to return the favor (I'm saving those up!) and, in one case, a box of super yummy chocolates!

I don't spend much time in the SYW forum, so I don't know what it's like there but my beta experiences have been nothing but positive so far. And I've gotten to read some pretty decent books too.

Voyager · Jan 8, 2008

I sure hope I've never done this! Especially to you and Fahim who are so generous, giving and supportive and all you EVER ask in return is for people to pay it forward (well, if people insist, they could buy Fahim's book and send quid some stevia seeds if you can find em

(it's in the mail as of yesterday, q)). I've had people not thank me, I just don't help them again.

L M Ashton said:
I was thinking more about this yesterday, and really, it extends to elsewhere, too.

How many times have people posted a question in a forum here, received countless replies, and never returned to say thank you? Granted, it takes less time than a critique, especially of the kind Jersey Chick is talking about, but still, a thank you would be nice. It's tiring enough answering the same question every two weeks or even saying "it's been asked already - check the archives" or "do a search" or "there's a thread about it in this forum". It gets tiring.

To me, it's all the same problem - expecting other people to do your work for you while you just sit back and do nothing for yourself cuz you can't be bothered to do so much as a search or say thank you when someone gives you the answer or points you in the right direction. It's an attitude, and it's not just in this forum - it's everywhere here and honestly, probably everywhere everywhere else.

I think I'm just getting too old.

Maryn, I agree entirely with what you're saying. Entirely. What I was saying is that "Thank you" should be the absolute bare minimum, and we're not getting even that.

L M Ashton · Jan 8, 2008

*laughs* Voyager, no, not you. Besides, you're sending me chocolate, which erases all mistakes, so you're ahead of the game.

Thank you in advance for the chocolate.

Voyager · Jan 8, 2008

You're very welcome, my poor, deprived buddy. :Hug2:

L M Ashton said:
*laughs* Voyager, no, not you. Besides, you're sending me chocolate, which erases all mistakes, so you're ahead of the game. Thank you in advance for the chocolate.

Jersey Chick · Jan 8, 2008

althrasher said:
"Remember to thank people. The people you thank might forget you, but the people you don't thank will NEVER forget you."

This is sooo true - not to sound utterly mercernary, but when my husband and I got married (almost 11 years ago), we had a huge wedding with a guest list of almost 300 people. I really don't remember who gave us what (with the exception of a few standouts

) but I can tell you who didn't give us anything.

it was one of his cousins.

WendyNYC · Jan 8, 2008

Oh, good thread. I sometimes think I might go overboard with the thanking, but it's good to know it's appreciated. In any event, it's a good reminder.

Wendy, whose mama raised her right

sheridan3003 · Jan 10, 2008

This is a really good thread. I have a few people outside this forum who agreed to beta my work. They have not yet got back to me. When you are anxiously awaiting feedback you tend not to think about what the beta readers are going through at the moment.

Beta readers are such an important part of writing that it is too easy to overlook the contribution that is made to the finished work.

Once I get feedback from my beta readers I will work to remind myself to thank the people who do review the work sufficiently.

Don't forget to say thank you to someone who helps you.

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