laid, lain, lie, lies?

Isn't this the old "lie vs lay" problem?

If I have this right, "lay" is used when you place an object down - so too for all it's variances like "laid" or "lays." ("Leis" btw, are something ENTIRELY different and probably no help to you unless your novel is set in Hawaii.)

"Lie" on the other hand is when you yourself become prone, as in to take nap. So too with "lied."

And of course there are the homonyms of both to deal with.

... after taking a moment to think about that, I may have that backwards...

give me a moment to double check.

and after looking it up, now I'm confused as well.

Seems to be that, in general, "lay" and it's various tenses are used for placing something in a prone position. Hence, "I lay me down to sleep" is grammatically correct because you're placing yourself in the bed (or wherever you sleep).

Whereas "lie" is something that's already in that position.

So, "lay" to get there and "lie" for when you are there.

... I hope that helps and I haven't managed to only further confuse you.

Copied from a post in another thread here in Grammar or Grasshoppers.... this problem comes up a lot, with me anyways.

To lie (to tell an untruth):
He will lie tomorrow.
He is lying now.
He lies every day.
He lied yesterday.
He has lied before.

To lie (to recline):
He will lie on the bed tomorrow.
He is lying on the bed now.
He lies on the bed every day.
He lay on the bed yesterday. **note past tense
He has lain on the bed before.

To lay (to put an object down, to have sex with someone, or to emit an egg):
He will lay the book on the table tomorrow.
He is laying the book on the table now.
He lays the book on the table every day.
He laid the book on the table yesterday.
He has laid the book on the table before.

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I have a huge problem with this as well, and was hoping this would give me an example.

I have a number of lay's in my book usually in the context along the lines of - "The dog lay at her feet while she read." So would it instead be, "The dog lied (laid) at her feet while she read." ???

It has nothing to do with the position.

It has to to with the presence or absence of a thing laid. It's called the direct object. (Grammar. I know, honey. SO sleepy.)

Let's conjugate!

I lie/lay/have lain on the bed. (No object.)
I lay/lay/laid the blanket/an egg/my scant remaining self-respect (that direct object, see!) on the bed.

Line editors have stylebooks, like the AP stylebook, to help them through crises like this. There are a billion secondhand copies around, even an old one is fine. Or maybe I'm so old it's all online now.

"lied" means "told a lie"

ravenlea said:

I have a number of lay's in my book usually in the context along the lines of - "The dog lay at her feet while she read." So would it instead be, "The dog lied (laid) at her feet while she read." ???

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slcboston said:

"Lie" on the other hand is when you yourself become prone, as in to take nap. So too with "lied."

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Just to be entirely clear on this confusion -- "lied" only means "told a lie". If the dog lied at your feet, that dog was very untruthful!

The dog lay at your feet -- correct.
The dog laid a bone at your feet -- correct
The dog laid at your feet -- wrong.

I wonder if we need a sticky about this

Or...a Grammar Hall of Fame thread, sticked in this forum so answers to many of these questions can be easily found.

Ravenlea,
I haven't line edited for awhile. So this is making even my head hurt.

But in your example, there is no direct object. So you get something like:

The dog lay at her feet ... (no direct object)
The dog laid a chewed slipper lovingly at her feet ... (the chewed slipper is the direct object)

Clearer?

It gets confusing if you try to sound/feel it all out. You really do need to go get a book, like a stylebook, and conjugate the stupid verb "lie". Like a musician plays scales every day for 70 years.

Then make a sticky note and put it by your desk. We do.

One of the threads it is discussed in

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27409


and another one:


http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81632&highlight=lying

ravenlea said:

I have a number of lay's in my book usually in the context along the lines of - "The dog lay at her feet while she read." So would it instead be, "The dog lied (laid) at her feet while she read." ???

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The key is to realize that there are two completely different words which are both spelled L-A-Y. The present tense of the verb to lay is lay. The past tense of the verb to lie, when it means recline, is lay. (The past tense of the verb to lie, when it means tell a falsehood, is lied.)

"The dog lay at her feet while she read."

IF you are writing in past tense, then lay is the past tense of to lie and the sentence is correct.

IF you are writing in present tense, then lay is the present tense of to lay and the sentence is wrong. (Hmmm, since the subject is the dog, it would have to be the dog lays, so I don't suppose you mean to be in present tense.)


I've been trying to think of a quick rule of thumb. All I can come up with so far is to see whether you can substitute sit or put in the sentence. If sit works, then you are using a form of to lie. If put works, you are using a form of to lay.

Past Tense
The dog lay at her feet <--> The dog sat at her feet.
The dog laid at her feet <--> The dog put at her feet.

I lay my coat on the bed <--> I sat my coat on the bed.
I laid my coat on the bed <--> I put my coat on the bed.

Present Tense
The dog lies at her feet <--> The dog sits at her feet.
The dog lays at her feet <--> The dog puts at her feet.

I lie my coat on the bed <--> I sit my coat on the bed.
I lay my coat on the bed <--> I put my coat on the bed.

(Hmmm, that's not as useful as I'd like, because many people misuse sit/set the same way. Not to mention that it doesn't work so well for laying eggs, laying carpet, or getting laid. I guess if it were easy, someone would have already come up with one already. Back to the drawing board.)

Forms of "to lie" meaning "to rest or recline": lie, is lying, lay, has lain

Forms of "to lay" meaning "to put or place": lay, is laying, laid, has laid

As Ms. Giraffe pointed out, note that the word "lay" appears twice and means TWO DIFFERENT things. "Lay" is the simple present tense conjugation of "to put or place" and the simple past tense conjugation of "to rest or recline."

I try and think of another verb to use. Not a problem as I find lay/lie is rarely the strongest choice.

cletus said:

I try and think of another verb to use. Not a problem as I find lay/lie is rarely the strongest choice.

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You know what, I like that approach best.

"The dog slept at my feet."

I vote for a sticky!

I lie down.
I lay down my book.
My dog has lain down to sleep.
I laid my cat on top of him, and it caused a big ruckus.
Dick Cheney lies.

caw

Mela said:

Thank you all -
I had thought this probably came up before but didn't have the time to find the thread - it is a vexing grammatical problem.
Your help is appreciated

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You don't have time to find the thread but assume other people have time to write this all out again for you. Interesting.

I had someone tell me once that a chicken "lays" and egg but a dog "lies" down. Seemed a good way to keep track of lay as the one you use when you put something somewhere, and lie when it's you doing the lying down.

And then you have sex and egg POVs.

Consider getting laid.

I got laid this morning. (I'm a really fresh egg or a happy chick.)
I got laid by Jon this morning . (So is Jon fair or fowl?)
I'm gonna get laid. (I'm in the oviduct or hatching a plot.)

Maybe it's all an unnecessary complication. Egg POV stories must be rare, and there are other words for having sex.

Yes, where exactly is the conflict, for an egg?

Shweta said:

Yes, where exactly is the conflict, for an egg?

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Why, it's always imminent: Consider Humpty Dumpty

That's really more resolution than conflict, surely.