Critiques

Too bad this isn't a sticky because all of the questions Birol has asked are all very important for anyone considering putting their work up for a crit.

I have been embarassed.

I don't think of my work as my "baby" any more. I just think that it's better to treat them as trash that needs work.

I learned alot here, and I have deeply regretted posting that thread.

Moon Daughter said:

Too bad this isn't a sticky because all of the questions Birol has asked are all very important for anyone considering putting their work up for a crit.

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I second this. This would make for a good sticky. Don't have time now, but I'll post again later with my own opinion on what I expect from critiques.

I think some other questions to ask are:

1.) Is your work polished?

2.) Are you really ready to hear another's opinion of your work?

As a critiquer I think it is important to work within the genre, style, voice etc of the original work. Horror may not be your favourite, but if you are going to critique it you have to set aside your prejudices and work within the framework given. Don't try to impose your own vision on the prose. I had a brilliant playwrighting teacher who could critique any kind of work, be extremely direct about what worked and didn't, and yet not change the spirit of what was being presented.

As the person who is getting the critique, most importantly, I think you need to say "thank you", especially in a setting like this where it's not like it's a teacher who is doing their job. People here (or other boards, or in writing circles) are taking their time to help you. Their critique might not be something you agree with, their critique may be totally off base, but they are doing you a favour for no other reason than to help. Even if you don't agree, a simple thank you, can do wonders.

Now of course there are always exceptions. There are people who just want to show off and so critique in a really nasty way. Saying something like, "This sucks! You should give up writing!" is not useful at all.

The worst critiques I've ever gotten were all along the lines of "it's great, write more!" Those are wonderful to get, especially early on, but they don't help you improve one tiny bit. And there's not one writer out there who can't improve, at least a tiny bit.

I've had harsh critiques. Sadly, almost every time, they were right. Perhaps not phrased in a way that made me want to sing a song, but still and all, right.

I don't take every critique, beta or editing suggestion and make the change. I don't ignore them, either. I read them, step away for a while -- an hour, a day, a week, depending -- and then I come back and read them with a fresh eye. Almost every time, I get something out of the critique. A few times it's been that the critter isn't "for me". And there's nothing wrong with that.

I think one important question that wasn't in Birol's first set is this: Are you going for publication, or are you just doing this for fun? If it's to become a professional, grow a thick skin, learn to take criticism, and learn how to let anything less than nice roll off your back -- you'll need this the moment you're "out there" in the real world. If it's just for fun, make sure you're posting so when you ask for crits, or, better yet, find a group where it's a bunch of you just having fun, and share your work there. Less chance for hurt feelings, still a chance to grow and learn.

Birol said:

When you post work for a critique, what do you expect? How do you expect it to be critiqued? What do you consider a good critique? What makes a critique bad?

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I always appreciate it when someone responds to my post in SYW when I ask for a critique. I expect an honest opinion and maybe some suggestions on how to improve it. I always appreciate any kinds of comments, positive or negative. A good critique--a very good critique--is when the critter line by lines it and has obviously spent a great deal of time working on it. The most recent crit I've received like that was from a member named brer. He suggested a major reworking of the chapter I had posted, and I agreed with his criticisms.

A bad critique is when someone says "I didn't have any problem with it at all." Then the rest of the posts suggest major changes.

Also, what are appropriate ways to respond to critiques? What are inappropriate ways?

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The best way to respond to a critique is "Thank you for the suggestions, I see your point." I guess an inappropriate way is to keep saying "Yeah, but--" "Yeah, but--" "Yeah, but--" Stephen King points this out in On Writing.

What's the worst critique you have ever received? What's the best? Have you ever, in retrospect, been embarrassed by your own behavior?

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I've never received a "worst critique," but I'm sometimes disappointed when NOBODY critiques my sample. And I've never been embarassed as I always appreciate any critique I receive. I learn from all of them.

allen

A 2c effort from yours truly; all opinions expressed are IMHOs

Birol said:

When you post work for a critique, what do you expect? How do you expect it to be critiqued? What do you consider a good critique? What makes a critique bad?

Also, what are appropriate ways to respond to critiques? What are inappropriate ways?

What's the worst critique you have ever received? What's the best? Have you ever, in retrospect, been embarrassed by your own behavior?

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My expectations changed vastly between the first time I posted my work for critique and now.
Back in August I mostly was hoping for judgement along the lines of "this works", in which case I was planning to continue, or "this does not work", in which case I planned to go back to my original programming. What I got were detailed crits along the lines of "tighten your dialogue," "your opening is cliche" and a lot of nitpicking over word choices. I agrued with about 50% of the comments, and took the other 50% to heart. Over time, as I continue working on my novel, I came to understand that the other 50% were also spot-on.
Those days I regard every single critique as a blessing.

The best one is a crit that tells me where my writing failed:
1) on the mechanical level of grammar and word-choice (I am not a native speaker, so this is a constant struggle),
2) on narrative level: i.e where the plot is not truly realized or too opaque, and where the characters lapse into being unlikable.

A bad critique is
1. one that praises lavishly, but suggests no ways to improve. While it might be nice to get a critique like that, it is not useful and often ends up being a disservice.
2. one that disagrees with the tone/content of work due to personal preference. My themes are not for everyone. The fact that a theme rubs a critter the wrong way may have nothing to do with the quality of the work. A wise critter recognizes this and steps back. Unfortunately, I have been both on the giving and the receiving end of this.

What is the best way to thank a critter? A thank you, a rep point, if lots of time and effort has been involved, a box of chocolate or a comparable bribe.

Have I evern been embarrassed by my own behavior? You bet. I argued with critters over very valid points they made, only to realize later that they were right. I critiqued where a critique was not asked for.
I guess some people are perfect from the beginning, but I am not one of them. But I do my best to learn from mistakes.

JeanneTGC said:

The worst critiques I've ever gotten were all along the lines of "it's great, write more!" Those are wonderful to get, especially early on, but they don't help you improve one tiny bit. And there's not one writer out there who can't improve, at least a tiny bit.

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Agree with every word you wrote!

For me, when I send something to the betas, I want to know BOTH what's working and what's not. A lot of people are great at telling you either the good or the bad, but not both, and IMHO, a writer needs both. If you're going to strengthen your manuscript, you need to evaluate how it's working for the reader overall.

I had a friend beta for me once, and although she is an intelligent and insightful reader, it was sort of a disaster. I got back the manuscript with criticisms aplenty and not one nice word. I thought, My God, this thing is a disaster, and I plunged into extensive re-edits. When I showed it to her again, she said, "Why did you change this? It was better before? I liked the way it was!" I seriously had no idea that she'd liked it at all, because she hadn't said one positive word. She had only pointed out what she thought needed changing -- and as a result, I got seriously off-course.

(Not that betas should be all sunshine -- her critiques were solid, and I was able to hear them -- but I think it's important to get the whole picture.)

Great post idea, Birol!

Having been part of a critique group in the past, I have a better idea now than I did before about what I want and what I do NOT want.

I've learned that I need to have critique partners who read and write similar works as I do. I am tired of people posting critiques for my work and saying things like, "I normally hate romance, but..." or "I don't read first person as a rule, but..." or "I don't get urban fantasy, but..." I'd rather have somebody who understands and likes the "style" I use rather than start off by saying they don't like it off the bat.

Constructive criticism is a must. But that doesn't mean the critique has to be "nice" so my feelings don't get hurt. I'd rather have somebody point things out to me in the early stages, rather than let it go on forever. If they have to nitpick or tell me I have a serious weakness with something, I welcome their suggestions. The reason I ask for help is that I actually want help. Not because I think I'm a genius and that I'm kind enough to let everyone bask in the glory of my work, or because I need an ego boost and want everyone to tell me how wonderful I am. Ha. Not going to happen!

On the other hand, I have received purposefully harsh crits--some downright mean--because I have been honest in my comments on others' work (I'm big on the "do unto others..." karma thing). There is a huge difference between being harsh to be helpful and harsh just for revenge or to be a troll. The revenge crits are easy to spot. I critted a piece a few years ago and pointed out some things I didn't like about the MC and I gave the writer specific examples. She argued with me over it, and I just let it go. I saw later that others had pointed the same things out to her as I had.

When I posted my work on the site a few weeks later, she ripped me to shreds, saying my writing was "horrible" and so on. Hers was the only negative crit I had on that chapter, and definitely a poor example of how to return the "favor." She was not from America and ripped on the way Americans do things, what we call things, and got upset that I didn't spell things the way she does in her country. I'd have to say that was the worst crit I'd ever received. But I suppose things like this go with the territory

If you don't want somebody to tell you what they think about your work, don't put it out there. Sometimes what people say is going to hurt. Sometimes what people say is going to make you run around and do the happy dance in your kitchen. But to me it boils down to this: if I can't take the criticism now, how on earth am I going to take it when I'm submitting my work? I know editors and agents sometimes dole out pretty harsh words in their rejections. But also keep in mind that if your books make it to the bookstore shelves, ANYONE with a computer can email you and rip it to shreds, and the publisher's rejection might seem more like a love note in comparison. If you get upset about every one of those, you're going to waste valuble time that you could devote to writing.

Birol said:

You know, a lot of people talk about developing a "thick skin," but what's really meant by that? What is a thick skin when you're talking about writing, because obviously, it's not like we're developing calluses all over our body.

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To me, a thick skin means being able to take it, whatever the "it" might be.

To be able to sift through someone's personal style in terms of how they give feedback -- their way of critiquing, the examples they use, what they do and don't like -- and find what works for me, what I can agree with, what doesn't work for me for creative reasons, etc.

And, most importantly, to not take a critique personally, as a personal attack, as someone saying they "don't like it", or whatever. To learn to distance yourself from your art -- be it writing, painting, sculpting, acting, dance, etc. -- and find a way to learn from the criticism.

I've actually begun to question if asking for critiques from writers is really valuable or simply a waste of time.

Birol said:

When you post work for a critique, what do you expect? How do you expect it to be critiqued?

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I expect objective feedback. If the critter finds something that doesn't gel, point it out. Maybe offer a reason it doesn't work. Knowing why it doesn't work really helps especially if four out of five people have the same reaction. Point out inconsistencies. Comment on flow, pace, dialogue...the meat.

What do you consider a good critique?

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One where I can walk away knowing I have work to do, an idea of what I need to work on, and still have my self-esteem in tact.

What makes a critique bad?

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Any of the following: that sucks, this is wonderful, it has a good beat and I can dance to it, etc. Sorry, but a Simon Cowell approach doesn't work for me. I don't mind honesty and I can handle the truth but insults don't get results no matter how clever and witty they are.

Also, what are appropriate ways to respond to critiques?

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When I was in college and rehearsing for some ballet, I remember something our guest artist said during rehearsals. She made one of the little girls cry when she pointed something out to her. She walks over to the little girl, kneels down, speaks loudly so all the corps can hear, "When I was learning to dance I was taught a very important lesson: When someone, anyone, corrected you, no matter how harsh it was, you were to say, "Thank you for pointing this out to me" and you leave it at that." Fighting with someone, disagreeing with them or whatever is not going to do you any good. Thank them for their time and move on if it doesn't sit well with you; make changes if it does.

What are inappropriate ways?

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Talking back, making excuses, talking shit on them later, not applying what they suggest...stuff like that.

Birol said:

You know, a lot of people talk about developing a "thick skin," but what's really meant by that? What is a thick skin when you're talking about writing, because obviously, it's not like we're developing calluses all over our body.

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Online you don't have to let everyone see your first reaction. You can step away from the keyboard and cry or scream or curse as long as you need to. You can take the time to regain your perspective before responding.

Most of my crits are the face-to-face kind. I've only posted query letters & a synopsis on SYW, but have shared fiction with people I've met here -- so I'm not sure how relevant my experience is. You can be the judge of that.

When I ask for a crit, I'm always sure to specify I'm looking for brutal honesty. So far that's what I've gotten, and it works. Online is the perfect forum for people like me in this regard, keeps me from saying anything besides "Thank you" or asking a question for clarification's sake. Which is what I really mean, I just don't always realize that before I open my big mouth.

The worst types of crits are either when they don't get back to you at all, or ignore what you've asked for (i.e. "does this plot work" and they respond with a line edit).

The best types of crits are usually the ones I want to toss out completely when I first read them. I can take brutal honesty, but often it has to sit for a day or two before I want to take it.

This ties in with the "thick skin" question. For me, developing one has been learning how I react to crits and keeping myself from saying anything about them until I've had a chance to get some perspective. (Except with my r/l writing buddy - but we've been working on that relationship for over a year now.) It's like the shitty first draft syndrome: sometimes it hurts when I go back & read the words I raced to type at 3 a.m. before they disappeared, but once I get over the sting I can make them better. Crits that make me feel defensive usually do so because something's there that I need to learn. Even if it takes a week for me to sneak up on the lesson, I'm going to hang in there because this is what I want for myself.

Great thread! Thanks for making me think about this stuff!

Until I moved out of state a few weeks ago, I was fortunate enough to be a member of a professional, invite-only critique group for about six months. I got a lot out of it, but one of the things I learned is that it works just fine to sit and nod and take notes even when I'm thinking, "You are so off course and full of crap." I'm not defensive about my writing but it's hard not to feel that a critter has misunderstood the story sometimes. My group had a policy of not allowing comments until after the critiques were all finished, though, and then the writer could have a few minutes of discussion about points that came up during the critiques. It worked very well.

It helps to receive critiques from those who are at your level or at a higher level of writing mastery, and who read a lot of the kind of things you write. It's okay to ignore any advice given, too, as long as you think it over honestly and carefully. Just don't tell the person you're ignoring their advice.

Many times I've sat through critiques thinking, "This is good for me. This is good for me. This is good for me" in order to not feel like I was being ripped to shreds along with my writing. It helps that every piece I've revised after critiquing and then sent out has sold, though.

asking for critiques has been valuable for me. i have had some very clear sighted advice since posting here. i think i started doing the "last paragraph" thing in june. scary moment right after i pushed that submit button.

i think my first syw post was in july. i know i would not have done it, except that glassquill did. i was impressed enough with the responses to her/his story that i screwed my courage to the sticking point and went for it. i am glad i did. since then i have had a couple of three manuscripts read by people i met here. the responses were not always what i wanted to hear but usually they lined out my strengths and flaws in a way i needed to see, in order to grow. example: sometimes i am so caught up in clever words that i lose the plot. i have heard that many times so i know it must be true. never would have seen it on my own. how clever is that?

i am timid in the presence of other writers. too aware of my isolation. i don't think i could take a crit face to face, but writing while wearing zorro's mask, i could distance myself from the pain. "hey, don diego? looky here. this critter fella sez you are info dumping. listen to me, boy. you better quit that." so, yes. i do think asking for a critique is valuable. not always pleasant but that is why we wear masks--s6

6 traits

i used to teach high school & college comp one and two. granted we were doing a diff style of writing but we had a rubric that we used based on six traits: voice, idea and content, conventions, sentence fluency (like if the pronouns or verbs shifted), word choice, organization. i still prefer to do it that way. it is pretty tough to bomb out on all six of those, so i always had something positive to say. i purely hate to "grade" a paper. using the 6 traits always leaves room for growth.

on the other hand, there are those writers who just cannot seem to get a handle on their errors. they see a few good comments and refuse to see the commentary on the flaws. great voice is a talent but without the other 5 traits you don't got diddly squat--s6

• Start with something positive. There is ALWAYS something positive, perhaps several things.
• Bring up the deficiencies. Address them in a way that allows the person to be critiqued to take the feedback and turn it into something productive. If you're taking them tiem to offer insight, show solutions, not just problems.
• Transition into something to build on for the future. Give the person a stepping stone. You're not obligated to handhold; you should, however, offer a glance at the next step forward (if you know it).
• Thank the person being critiqued for the opportunity and look forward to the next opportunity to critique.

I supposed this mirrors the sandwich.

Birol said:

How come?

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It comes down to semantics, really. For example:

He was a brute of incredible strength, which was surpassed only by his hunger; and his aspirations for food overcame his desire to remain safe in his hiding place.

Inevitably, nature took its course.

He lashed out, latching onto a leg, and sunk his mandibles into the flesh of his quivering victim. His appetite far from sated upon reaching the torso, he continued upwards; disemboweling the twitching body as it was torn limb from limb…

Is this the beginning of a good story or a bad one? Can anyone really tell what my character is at this point? Without knowing anything more: without having a query to first describe what the story is; how can anyone give good advice on how this story unfolds and whether or not it is worthwhile to continue writing?

Is this the story of a demonic fiend or monster?

Or am I simply describing a praying mantis, feeding on another?


Without providing a set of parameters, like a query or book jacket blurb, many conclusions can be had. It’s like playing mumbleypeg in the dark.

Birol said:

What do you think about the sandwich style of critiquing? Meaning start with something positive, offer constructive criticism, end with something positive?

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Oh, absolutely--I think that's the way to go, always! In particular, I think it's good to end on a positive note. The worst critique I ever heard (it wasn't of one of my own pieces) was by a guy in my group who tends to be pretty brutal anyway, but he started off by saying the story was a boring, cliched piece of junk, and pretty much ended by saying the same thing. The schoolteacher in me wanted to have a quiet talk with him while the other kids played at recess. Fortunately I was the next critter after him and I saw lots of positive things about the story, so I tried to ease the blow somewhat. I didn't think his critique was very useful to the writer, either. I hope she was sitting there thinking, "You are so full of crap" when he was talking instead of "OMG I suxxors."

What do you think about the sandwich style of critiquing? Meaning start with something positive, offer constructive criticism, end with something positive?

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I think it's a good idea -- in theory. In practice, it's often too restrictive, IMO. (And speaking as a critter.) A genuine "good line" or "I like this" sprinkled throughout is also good -- but also not always practical.

Sometimes, honestly, you read something and realize that the kindest thing you can tell the person is that they spelled all the hard words correctly. Okay, maybe that's harsh, but it's also true, and what kind of "positive" comment would that be?

To anybody I've critiqued, please know that I really don't look for positive things to say; I look for comments or questions that I believe might help you improve your work.

Will they? I don't know. Having been on the receiving end of a few "critiques" by editors early in my career, what I discovered is that the oddest things were helpful to me. As an example, one editor noted that in a scene I'd had two things happen within an unreasonable space of time.

Logic. I hadn't been paying attention to my stage direction and timing. That one comment, from that one editor, made me sit up and pay attention, and it's a lesson I never forgot.

That same editor made a lot of points over the years, and I hope I learned from most of them.

Okay, from some of them.

The thing is, the only times I've learned from positive comments have been on those occasions when I tried something I was unsure of in a book, and either the editor or my agent reacted to that specific thing just as I'd hoped the reader would.

Now, I don't turn in material and say to my agent or editor, "By the way, in Chapter 6, about halfway through, I have a character shift that may not make sense to you until Chapter 7." That's really not how the author/agent, author/editor relationships work -- at least in my case.

I just turn in the material and wait. If they comment on the specific thing, either positively or negatively, there's my answer. If they don't comment, I can take it that they didn't see what I tried as a problem or, possibly, didn't even notice. Which is when I have to weigh the question of whether I want to leave well enough alone, or want to ask them what their reaction was to that specific thing.

Usually, I leave well enough alone.

Sorry, rambling probably ...