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BlueLucario
12-31-2007, 11:54 PM
I'm sorry, to be honest, I don't know how well I take criticism, but judging from the feedback of this one critter, not only do I find it arrogant, but he was not concise throughout his critique. He left me asking too many questions and he went on rambling about himself. I know you can't please everyone, but just look at the way he crits it.

Look here. (If I'm not allowed to link to another forums please let me know.)
http://www.writingforums.com/critique-advice/91634-im-sorry-bother-you-all-but-does-piece-sound-bit-disturbing.html

I don't get it. I was very confused with the feedback, I don't even know if he read the whole thing. But the only thing I can tell you, is that he was not concise in his review.

I wasn't angry at him, except for the part where he went on rambling of how HE would write it. He did hurt me, but only for a second.

your thoughts on this?

Have I failed to take criticism well? Or is this guy too condenscending?

I'm not ranting, I'm just confused.

To MODS: If I have place this topic in the wrong thread , feel free to move it and please let me know.

brokenfingers
01-01-2008, 12:04 AM
To be honest, I thought it was both objective and constructive.

He only told you what he would do in order to give his criticisms some context, to help you understand what he was getting at.

Plus many critters view a piece in their own eyes, as in - what would they do to make it better if it was theirs.

Fenika
01-01-2008, 12:08 AM
I haven't read the crit, but just wanted to say- take deep breaths Blue :) Repeat the phrase No worries until it sticks. Then have fun writing. K?

Bartholomew
01-01-2008, 12:10 AM
I'm sorry, to be honest, I don't know how well I take criticism, but judging from the feedback of this one critter, not only do I find it arrogant, but he was not concise throughout his critique. He left me asking too many questions and he went on rambling about himself. I know you can't please everyone, but just look at the way he crits it.

Look here. (If I'm not allowed to link to another forums please let me know.)
http://www.writingforums.com/critique-advice/91634-im-sorry-bother-you-all-but-does-piece-sound-bit-disturbing.html

I don't get it. I was very confused with the feedback, I don't even know if he read the whole thing. But the only thing I can tell you, is that he was not concise in his review.

I wasn't angry at him, except for the part where he went on rambling of how HE would write it. He did hurt me, but only for a second.

your thoughts on this?

Have I failed to take criticism well? Or is this guy too condenscending?

I'm not ranting, I'm just confused.

To MODS: If I have place this topic in the wrong thread , feel free to move it and please let me know.

I'm going to be blunt with you, because I think it'll help you.

When you post your work up for other people to critique, you have to be prepared to accept criticism. It's harder than it sounds. I put something up in the SYW board a week or so back and got one mildly negative crit, and it threw my ego into such a tizzy that, again, I've decided I'm just not mature enough to ask other writers of their opinions.

His critique doesn't seem to be overly negative or harsh to me. It sounded to me like he was honestly trying to be helpful. You're overreacting.

You might want to back off asking for crits, for a while. I read the piece you posted, and it really needs editing, mostly from a *logic* standpoint, and partially from a grammar standpoint. For instance, you state that "some of his yellow teeth were missing." If they're missing, how do you know they're yellow? I know what you're trying to say, but you're not saying it.

Read books. Read them often. Write. Write often. And don't worry about what other people think until you've got a pile of finished stories, or a novel, that you're ready to edit.

kuwisdelu
01-01-2008, 12:12 AM
Wow. I'm going to have to disagree with some of the others here and side with you and say that guy is a jerk. I mean, wow. It's one thing not to like a piece--even to hate it--but to go about telling you like that?

There's nothing wrong with not liking a piece, but there's no reason for him to be that rude. It started out fairly objective--if harsh and blunt--but the way he kept talking about how he would do it is telling, I think. If nothing else, he's bad at critiquing. He definitely wasn't trying to help you. Maybe he thought he was, but deep down he wasn't. He was trying to make you write your story HIS way, not help you improve your own writing.

Linda Adams
01-01-2008, 12:13 AM
Second what Brokenfingers said. The critter actually is trying to help by offering suggestions, most of which I thought were worthwhile ideas to try. He may have said it more bluntly than most, but that's a critique style that you're going to run across.

But with any crits, sometimes you'll get an immediate emotional reaction. I've seen it in my critique group when someone starts getting defensive, argumentive, or tries to explain the story. The best thing to do is print the crit and set it aside. Wait a week or two. By then, the initial reaction will have faded, but it'll still be in the back of your mind. Then when you read it again, it'll look different and perhaps you'll be able to get more out of it.

JeanneTGC
01-01-2008, 12:16 AM
I have to agree with both the original critter and brokenfingers. I think the critique was quite objective and the critter was trying to help.

He never said he didn't like the piece -- you're interpreting someone not jumping up and down and telling you you're a genius to mean they dislike the piece. Seriously, if you cannot take constructive criticism, or criticism of any kind, perhaps a career in the arts is not for you. You asked for critique, he complimented your idea, and gave very good suggestions for how to improve your execution of the idea. If you're only looking for accolades, do not post something and ask for critique or opinion -- find a group of like-minded writers, doing it for fun, and share with them.

If, however, you do want to improve in the craft, you're going to need to get a thicker skin, quickly, because the only way to get better -- in addition to writing more and more and more -- is to have people read your piece and give you their objective critiques.

Again, my comments are only relevant if you're trying for publication. If you're not, stop asking others for critique and just enjoy what you write and how you write it. There is no harm at all in that, and also no need for anyone to spend time critiquing (because it IS time consuming). There are plenty of outlets where you could post and get readers who will not be critiquers.

Siddow
01-01-2008, 12:20 AM
Don't post your stuff on teh interwebs for criticism if you're not ready to hear what complete strangers will say. If you only want praise, show it to your friends and family.

People like you are the reason I don't do much critting. Why spend my time offering my comments, only to have you (generic 'you') run off to another forum and call me a jerk?

DeleyanLee
01-01-2008, 12:27 AM
I have to agree and disagree with the other posters.

The commentary was blunt, but it was good commentary. Have your emotional reaction, then come back to it with a clearer head and look at what is being said. I've found throughout my years that the critique that hurts most is usually the critique I most need to hear. Hard to live with fact of life, but you can get used to it.

However, the part I find insulting and objectionable is the "let me tell you how I would do it" section. I was taught that the purpose of critique is to help the author tell THEIR story, not inflict them with how YOU would tell THEIR story. That kind of thing never washes with me and I'd completely disregard that portion of the commentary--but just that portion of the commentary, not the entire thing.

underthecity
01-01-2008, 12:28 AM
Blue,

Why is it so vital to you that you get immediate reaction, preferably positive, to this piece that you place it here in AW's SYW and now another forum? And possibly even more?

Stop worrying about what others think of you or your writing and just write! AFTER you've completed a piece and revised it endlessly, THEN ask for feedback on it. As others have pointed out, the piece still needs work.

I have a piece I've posted in one of the SYW forums (one that requires a second password) and have received several comments about it. I've used those comments to rewrite the piece into something even better. And I appreciated the comments, too.

I gathered from your post in SYW that you're worried about what readers will think of YOU in regards to your story content. That's something you just can't worry about. I've written some pretty twisted stuff in my own novel, but it's a story. It's fiction. Crazy wacky things happen in fiction.

If you're coming up with some pretty twisted things in your fiction, then that's awesome! It shows imagination. But if you don't want to offend anyone with your writing and you're worried what other people will think, then maybe you shouldn't share it with anyone. Just write it all in a notebook and hide it under your bed.

I've read a lot of very twisted shit in modern fiction. But twisted is fun. Don't let anyone hold you back.

allen

BlueLucario
01-01-2008, 12:38 AM
Second what Brokenfingers said. The critter actually is trying to help by offering suggestions, most of which I thought were worthwhile ideas to try. He may have said it more bluntly than most, but that's a critique style that you're going to run across.

But with any crits, sometimes you'll get an immediate emotional reaction. I've seen it in my critique group when someone starts getting defensive, argumentive, or tries to explain the story. The best thing to do is print the crit and set it aside. Wait a week or two. By then, the initial reaction will have faded, but it'll still be in the back of your mind. Then when you read it again, it'll look different and perhaps you'll be able to get more out of it.

Linda, I didn't see any suggestions from him. He went on rambling of how HE wrote it. To make things more subtle, he could of at least say "How you should write" or "May I suggest how you should" He probably didn't mean it, but when he said "How "I"(emphasis on the I) write, it just makes him sound arrogant. He tells me to write in third person but he doesn't explain why? He just says, write in third-person.

I know that he's trying to help. I wasn't being defensive at all, I just feel unsure.However, if he's going to crit someone else work, he could have at LEAST elaborated on what he's saying. Unlike him, you guys used my excerpts as an example of what you are trying to say, but he just says"YOU'RE CHARACTERS ARE TWO DIMENSIONAL AND NOT BELIEVABLE". He just says it. He didn't explain how or why, he just said it.


He also said "YOU'RE DIALOGUE IS UNNATURAL AND FORCED" Maybe so. You guys taught me A LOT about dialogue and all that, but he doesn't use my quotes to show me what's wrong.

He doesn't tell me what to do to improve or fix the problems. If he isn't detailed on that, how is that helping me as a writer? It's like he wrote this stuff off the top of his head.


Overall, he's just saying "You're writing is wrong. You should copy how I write my stories."

I'm not going to start a fight because he probably didn't mean what he said, so I'm asking him questions nicely.

I find this crit very odd, that's all. I understand that he's trying to help. The only thing I expected was the answer to my question, nothing like fluffy bunnies and unicorns critiques.

He did not answer my main question at all. "Do you find my piece of writing disturbing?"

kuwisdelu
01-01-2008, 12:39 AM
I'm gonna chime in some more. As others have pointed out, he does have some valid points that you should consider. Maybe he's not a jerk in real life, and maybe he was honestly just trying to help you, but in my opinion he was still going about it the wrong way. The first third or so of his crit is just blunt, but there's nothing extremely wrong with it. It's a bit teethy, but nothing that sends up red flags.

As DeleyanLee pointed out, the part that got me was this:


If I was writing this piece, I would have done things differently. I would have written it in third person, for a start. I would have had master talking to the old man long before lily arrived on the scene. He would have called master by his first name. Master would have told him that lily was going to kill him. The old man would have said she wouldn’t.

If nothing else, this is just the mark of a bad critiquer. I don't see many critiques around AW that go like that. He's not pointing out problems with your handling of POV; he's just outright telling you which you should use. He's not telling you how to improve the way you tell the story, but he's telling you how the story should be told differently, how he sees it. None of that is any of his business.

Is his critique out of line? There, I think it is.

Does that invalidate his points about your writing? Not necessarily. Don't dwell on how he said he'd write it, but his other problems are still valid things to think about, even if you end up deciding he's wrong. But I do think he went about it the wrong way, anyway.

I'll also say yes, I found it disturbing, but not inappropriately so. Nothing I wouldn't expect from a fellow writer. I'm not gonna be sending you off to a mental ward. I imagine it's supposed to be somewhat disturbing. It's not the kind of thing that would make me stop reading. I like disturbing.

Linda Adams
01-01-2008, 12:44 AM
Linda, I didn't see any suggestions from him. He went on rambling of how HE wrote it. To make things more subtle, he could of at least say "How you should write" or "May I suggest how you should" He probably didn't mean it, but when he said "How "I"(emphasis on the I) write, it just makes him sound arrogant. He tells me to write in third person but he doesn't explain why? He just says, write in third-person.

I know that he's trying to help. I wasn't being defensive at all, I just feel unsure.However, if he's going to crit someone else work, he could have at LEAST elaborated on what he's saying. Unlike him, you guys used my excerpts as an example of what you are trying to say, but he just says"YOU'RE CHARACTERS ARE TWO DIMENSIONAL AND NOT BELIEVABLE". He just says it. He didn't explain how or why, he just said it.


He also said "YOU'RE DIALOGUE IS UNNATURAL AND FORCED" Maybe so. You guys taught me A LOT about dialogue and all that, but he doesn't use my quotes to show me what's wrong.

He doesn't tell me what to do to improve or fix the problems. If he isn't detailed on that, how is that helping me as a writer? It's like he wrote this stuff off the top of his head.


Overall, he's just saying "You're writing is wrong. You should copy how I write my stories."

I'm not going to start a fight because he probably didn't mean what he said, so I'm asking him questions nicely.

I find this crit very odd is all. It's the opposite of what YOU guys said about this piece.

He did not answer my main question at all. "Do you find my piece of writing disturbing?"

You're looking for him to tell you HOW to fix it. A critique isn't a step-by-step instruction. It's someone's opinion of whether elements of a story or the story itself works. It's up to the writer of the story to interpret those comments, take what is useful, think about what might be useful but maybe they can't apply yet, and discard comments that clearly don't fit.

kuwisdelu
01-01-2008, 12:50 AM
You're looking for him to tell you HOW to fix it. A critique isn't a step-by-step instruction. It's someone's opinion of whether elements of a story or the story itself works. It's up to the writer of the story to interpret those comments, take what is useful, think about what might be useful but maybe they can't apply yet, and discard comments that clearly don't fit.

Linda's right. It isn't his job to tell you how to fix it.

He did try to tell you how to fix it in a very roundabout "this is how I would do it" unhelpful way. But that's not helpful to the way you want to do it, now, is it?

In my humble opinion, the best thing you can do is ignore his "how I would do it" comments for now, and see if you can figure out how to improve on any of the things he didn't believe worked on your own. If there's anything you like in the way he would do it, maybe think about it. If there isn't, don't give it a second thought.

JeanneTGC
01-01-2008, 12:51 AM
Linda, I didn't see any suggestions from him. He went on rambling of how HE wrote it. To make things more subtle, he could of at least say "How you should write" or "May I suggest how you should" He probably didn't mean it, but when he said "How "I"(emphasis on the I) write, it just makes him sound arrogant. He tells me to write in third person but he doesn't explain why? He just says, write in third-person.

I know that he's trying to help. I wasn't being defensive at all, I just feel unsure.However, if he's going to crit someone else work, he could have at LEAST elaborated on what he's saying. Unlike him, you guys used my excerpts as an example of what you are trying to say, but he just says"YOU'RE CHARACTERS ARE TWO DIMENSIONAL AND NOT BELIEVABLE". He just says it. He didn't explain how or why, he just said it.


He also said "YOU'RE DIALOGUE IS UNNATURAL AND FORCED" Maybe so. You guys taught me A LOT about dialogue and all that, but he doesn't use my quotes to show me what's wrong.

He doesn't tell me what to do to improve or fix the problems. If he isn't detailed on that, how is that helping me as a writer? It's like he wrote this stuff off the top of his head.


Overall, he's just saying "You're writing is wrong. You should copy how I write my stories."

I'm not going to start a fight because he probably didn't mean what he said, so I'm asking him questions nicely.

I find this crit very odd is all. It's the opposite of what YOU guys said about this piece.

He did not answer my main question at all. "Do you find my piece of writing disturbing?"
You are complaining on a public forum about a stranger -- who took the time to try to help you -- not giving it to you in the manner in which you demand your feedback.

Stop posting to public forums and demanding the feedback come as you, personally, want it. Find some beta readers and train them in how to give you feedback.

And, why are you still demanding that everyone feel the same way about your piece? This is art -- it is open to interpretation. For every person who loves it, there will be three others who hate it.

As for someone saying "this is how I would do it", that's a style of critique. It supposed to soften the blow, because the person is saying that if it were them, this is how they'd do it, but, CLEARLY you, the writer, will do it how you see fit. It's supposed to help, by showing a way someone else might execute. It's sort of unspoken that you, the owner of the material, will execute however you see fit.

Seriously, this is why so many don't bother to do critiques, as Sid said. This person put time and effort in, and apparently others have over here, too, and you're focused soley on demanding to know why the critiquer didn't come across like your grandmother. Or answer your question, as if he had an obligation to do so.

BTW, you may not mean to be, but you are indeed coming across as completely defensive. And demanding. And very inexperienced. Unless you are PAYING someone to do a critique, they don't have any obligation to do anything, including be as helpful as this original critter was. You are making demands of a FREE SERVICE done by, essentially, VOLUNTEERS. Truly, take a step back and listen to yourself. And, again, grow the thick skin or do not post for critique -- as a favor to yourself and anyone who might spend the time critiquing for you.

BlueLucario
01-01-2008, 12:55 AM
Don't post your stuff on teh interwebs for criticism if you're not ready to hear what complete strangers will say. If you only want praise, show it to your friends and family.

People like you are the reason I don't do much critting. Why spend my time offering my comments, only to have you (generic 'you') run off to another forum and call me a jerk?

I'm very sorry if I offended you in any way, but you never elaborated on what you said that's all. But the way you wrote on YOU would write my story, makes you sound a bit arrogant(no offense). You probably didn't mean it anyway.

Although you DID explain to me what was wrong with my story, but you didn't tell me how to fix it.

Your crit wasn't very harsh at all(It was for a second). You just weren't very concise about it.

Please, keep critting. Critting helps the critter more than the author.

And you also said I expected praises. I never got praises anyway so why should I expect it? I did not ask for nice critiques. All I'm expecting was an answer to my question.

I didn't mean to hurt your feelings, so please don't take this personally. I never took your crit personally, but it's the way you said it that bothers me and it's not the harshness.

Siddow
01-01-2008, 12:59 AM
I didn't crit you, Blue. Me and the person on your link are different people.

BlueLucario
01-01-2008, 01:01 AM
I didn't expect anything from him, all I expected him was an explaination of what he's saying and again the answer to my question. I didn't expect critiques at all.

SpookyWriter
01-01-2008, 01:03 AM
I didn't crit you, Blue. Me and the person on your link are different people.:roll: You're always a different person.

Linda Adams
01-01-2008, 01:07 AM
Blue, you might want to read Veinglory's advice for people seeking crits: http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66193

maestrowork
01-01-2008, 01:15 AM
As a critter, I try not to tell others how "I would write it." I think when writers do that, it's more damaging than helpful. Offering suggestions and pointers for improvement is fine, but I usually shy away from anyone who utters the words, "I would have written it this way..."

That said, having thick skin is very important in any creative endeavor. Take what you can and discard whatever you deem useless. Don't take anything too personally.

BlueLucario
01-01-2008, 01:22 AM
I'm gonna chime in some more. As others have pointed out, he does have some valid points that you should consider. Maybe he's not a jerk in real life, and maybe he was honestly just trying to help you, but in my opinion he was still going about it the wrong way. The first third or so of his crit is just blunt, but there's nothing extremely wrong with it. It's a bit teethy, but nothing that sends up red flags.

As DeleyanLee pointed out, the part that got me was this:



If nothing else, this is just the mark of a bad critiquer. I don't see many critiques around AW that go like that. He's not pointing out problems with your handling of POV; he's just outright telling you which you should use. He's not telling you how to improve the way you tell the story, but he's telling you how the story should be told differently, how he sees it. None of that is any of his business.

Is his critique out of line? There, I think it is.




What this person quoted was exactly what I was trying to say >_<. Everything else in that post was perfectly fine. And again he said he would write in third person, he never explained why he would use it. Why he would suggest it and he never explained what's wrong with first person. And I have perfectly thick skin, because I'm used to harsh critiques. You never seen me get angry at you. I never got defensive. I would ask questions because I wanted you guys to explain a little bit further. I did the same thing in that post.

Thank you!

Marian Perera
01-01-2008, 01:23 AM
Although you DID explain to me what was wrong with my story, but you didn't tell me how to fix it.

How to fix it is up to the author, not up to the critiquer. To get an in-depth crit at all is a good thing, without expecting the corrections to be presented as well. When my critiquer Jordan tells me that a plot point or description doesn't work for him, it's my responsibility to evaluate his criticism (though it's usually valid), figure out why it doesn't work and then correct the problem. I'm happy if he makes a suggestion, but I don't require it of him.

I understand that you're a new writer and therefore would benefit from extra help. But you can't expect it. If someone carefully explains how to fix your mistakes in SYW (heck, scratch the "if", it's already happened), that's great. But not everyone can take as much time and effort. I'm sorry to be blunt, Blue, but you're coming off as high-maintenance. The skills you need to improve as a writer are going to be developed from extensive reading, completing a novel, editing it and then putting it up for critiques - right now, you're doing the last step first.

BlueLucario
01-01-2008, 01:24 AM
I didn't crit you, Blue. Me and the person on your link are different people.

I feel pretty stupid now.

Toothpaste
01-01-2008, 01:27 AM
Blue I agree that the guy sounded arrogant. But he did make a few good points in there. So don't give him power and get mad at him, but instead ignore the mean stuff and focus on the few points he made, which were, to be honest, very similar to other points people here have made about your work here.

When I told you to stop asking questions you replied and asked me when exactly you were asking questions. I never answered. Now I will.

The problem I am seeing is that you are expecting people to explain every little thing to you. So when they say the characters sound two dimensional, you ask what do you mean. They explain that the reason for that may be the dialogue is forced. You ask, what do you mean. They say, listen to how other people talk, they don't talk in complete sentences. You ask, what do you mean.

There is only so much we can do for you. We understand that things are harder for you than some when it comes to writing, but you have to start thinking for yourself. Trying to solve problems for yourself. You can't expect us to do all your work for you. This critter didn't go into detail how to solve the problems, but pointed out what they were. I think he was expecting you to think about the problems and solve them yourself. Next time you want to ask, what do you mean, why not instead ask that of yourself, and try to answer your own question. Why do you think he said what he said? Why do you think you have the problems you do in your writing?

BlueLucario
01-01-2008, 01:29 AM
How to fix it is up to the author, not up to the critiquer. To get an in-depth crit at all is a good thing, without expecting the corrections to be presented as well. When my critiquer Jordan tells me that a plot point or description doesn't work for him, it's my responsibility to evaluate his criticism (though it's usually valid), figure out why it doesn't work and then correct the problem. I'm happy if he makes a suggestion, but I don't require it of him.

.


Sorry QueenofSwords, that's really not what I meant to say. I don't expect corrections and all that. Just an example of what I did wrong. I meant to say "he" Sorry.

Bekah
01-01-2008, 01:31 AM
I'll just come right out and say that I find this thread childish, and I think the way you respond to critiques is often obnoxious. When someone has already taken their time to give you an exhaustive critique, you almost always seem to respond to each point they've made with, "What does that mean?" It's perfectly clear what he meant, or should be. It's not your fault if you don't understand, but at least give yourself some more time to figure it out.

If you continue posting thread after thread (here and on various other sites as well), then responding that way, you're quickly going to use up any goodwill people have towards you. In other words, people are going out of their way to be helpful because you are clearly new at this. But people eventually tire of spending all their time helping someone when their advice seems to just go in one ear and out the other. They tire of it a lot faster if that person turns around and bitches about them on another forum.

That said, I agree that what they guy wrote was harsh. I don't think it was unnecessarily harsh, however. I think people here have been gentler with you, because they've read your previous posts and see that your work has improved some. Sometimes you're going to get a critique that hurts your feelings. If you want your writing to improve, you'll put on your big girl panties and act like a grown-up about it.

kuwisdelu
01-01-2008, 01:37 AM
Do yourself a favor and for now just forget about all the out-of-line stuff I quoted. Do what everyone else is suggesting, and take this as a learning experience that you have some things you need to figure out on your own. Take the other issues he pointed out--the ones that echo what other critiquers have said here--and think about them. Think about them a lot. Look at how other writers do what you're trying to do. Part of growing as a writer is eventually having to learn how to find a way to fix things for yourself. Like Queen, I prefer it when my critiquers don't offer suggestions on how to fix things, because I need to do it my own way.

kuwisdelu
01-01-2008, 01:39 AM
Sorry QueenofSwords, that's really not what I meant to say. I don't expect corrections and all that. Just an example of what I did wrong. I meant to say "he" Sorry.

Ah. As a growing writer, that probably would be something helpful, but sometimes people just don't have the time. Sometimes you'll come across very helpful people who do, and that's great, but sometimes the best you can do is take what you get and do what you can with it.

BlueLucario
01-01-2008, 01:44 AM
I'll just come right out and say that I find this thread childish, and I think the way you respond to critiques is often obnoxious. When someone has already taken their time to give you an exhaustive critique, you almost always seem to respond to each point they've made with, "What does that mean?" It's perfectly clear what he meant, or should be. It's not your fault if you don't understand, but at least give yourself some more time to figure it out.


I was told by other people that I take crits very well. I never said I was defensive, yes crits can be harsh I know that and I really don't care because I asked for them. He wasn't THAT harsh, but what he said bugs me. There's nothing wrong with the critiique itself, it's what he said. Look at what that other person quoted. That's it, nothing else. I never said the critique was harsh and all that.

He kept on rambling about himself, he said "This is what "I" (again, emphasis on I) would write. I would write in third person and he rewrote the story, changed the characters point of without explaining WHY he would write it this way, and what was wrong with first person(I always write in first person).

That's what I've been trying to say the whole time! >_<

Toothpaste
01-01-2008, 01:47 AM
Blue did you read my post?

JeanneTGC
01-01-2008, 01:51 AM
Blue did you read my post?
Clearly not. Nor any of the others requiring a bit of self-examination.

Marian Perera
01-01-2008, 01:53 AM
Sorry QueenofSwords, that's really not what I meant to say. I don't expect corrections and all that.

This contradicts what you said earlier - "you/he didn't tell me how to fix it". This makes it sound as though you do expect corrections. Now it's possible that you're posting in such a hurry that what you say isn't what you mean, but again that comes down to taking your time and thinking through what you've written, which is what people have said in their crits of your work as well. If you say something in one post, but soon reply to say that that that actually wasn't what you meant, then it can get very tiring and frustrating for people who are trying to have a discussion with you.

As for giving you an example of what you did wrong, if someone says "the dialogue in your story sounded forced and there were infodumps", then you might want to examine the story yourself to see if you can spot infodumps or examples of forced dialogue. It's nice if the critter includes an example, but this isn't a requirement, nor should it be a reason to dismiss the crit/complain about the critter.

BlueLucario
01-01-2008, 01:57 AM
About that. I'm sorry if I come across as annoying. About that post, I DID ask before posting it so I don't spam and bug anyone. I'm not going to ask any more questions, I don't need to if I have Uncle Jim. All I wanted to know if the excerpt from my story seemed weird, that's it.

kuwisdelu
01-01-2008, 01:57 AM
He kept on rambling about himself, he said "This is what "I" (again, emphasis on I) would write. I would write in third person and he rewrote the story, changed the characters point of without explaining WHY he would write it this way, and what was wrong with first person(I always write in first person).

That's what I've been trying to say the whole time! >_<

I think most of us have admitted that he didn't go about his critique the way he should have, but what others are trying to say is you're keeping on this for too long. As others have said, it's time to stop worrying about the mean parts and move on.

Toothpaste
01-01-2008, 02:01 AM
Blue, I'm still not letting this go.

Did you read my post (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1923445&postcount=25)? Did you read Queen (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1923502&postcount=33)'s? Did you see what we are trying to tell you? Can you tell it back to me? This is not meant to be condescending, it is simply the teacher in me. (also I don't like being ignored, but that's my issue ;) ) There is a very important point being made in those posts.

Marian Perera
01-01-2008, 02:02 AM
I was told by other people that I take crits very well.

You take them well in that you thank critters for their time and you rarely if ever argue. What's problematic are the frequent requests to critiquers to explain or clarify what they mean. Bekah and Toothpaste are right about that. I understand that you want to improve your writing, but at some point you have to start reading and comparing published work to your own, editing your posts carefully beforehand and researching terms that you don't understand.

Provrb1810meggy
01-01-2008, 02:02 AM
BlueLucario, I suggest that you get one good writer friend who you could vent to about everything writing-related. This friend can come in handy when you're frustrated while writing, when you're frustrated with the critiques you're getting, and when you're frustrated with the submissions process. That way you won't go onto a public forum and insult a critique somebody gave you.

Though it may not have been the best critique or the most sensitive, remember, the critter owes you nothing. They don't have to critique you at all, and even if they do give you a critique, it doesn't have to be well-thought out, thorough, and helpful.

Bekah
01-01-2008, 02:03 AM
I was told by other people that I take crits very well. I never said I was defensive, yes crits can be harsh I know that and I really don't care because I asked for them. He wasn't THAT harsh, but what he said bugs me. There's nothing wrong with the critiique itself, it's what he said. Look at what that other person quoted. That's it, nothing else. I never said the critique was harsh and all that.

He kept on rambling about himself, he said "This is what "I" (again, emphasis on I) would write. I would write in third person and he rewrote the story, changed the characters point of without explaining WHY he would write it this way, and what was wrong with first person(I always write in first person).

That's what I've been trying to say the whole time! >_<

Actually, I'm pretty sure that what at least one person here has said is that you don't take critiques at all. They made exactly the same point as I just did about it going in one ear and out the other. You might respond nicely instead of exploding in rage, but you rarely apply the advice you've been given. Instead, you're back the next day, posting another piece with the exact same problems. "Taking a critique well" means more than just nodding your head and being nice about it. It means that you find a way to apply what you've learned to the other things you write.

And posting a thread with the phrase, "Is this critter a total jerk?" is defensive. So is practically dismissing what he's said because he didn't give it to you in the format you prefer. Your first response to him over there was a classic example of defensiveness, with the whole "I'm sorry you hated it, but people on another forum loved it!" I know you probably didn't mean any of those things defensively, but that doesn't change the fact that they are.

If you just flat-out can't understand that people will read what you've written and see defensiveness or ungratefulness or what have you, then I have to say that writing is probably not for you. Writing isn't just about knowing the dictionary definition of the words you use; it's about understanding the more subtle things those words imply.

BlueLucario
01-01-2008, 02:06 AM
Blue did you read my post?

no. There were so many posts building up I couldn't keep up. But I'm sorry if anything I have said was misunderstood. This happens a lot.

To Linda Adams: I have already read that post. But thank you.

Chumplet
01-01-2008, 02:08 AM
I've been there. Here's an excerpt from my blog. I hope it helps:

Look up 'critique' and you'll see such words as evaluation and assessment. Look up 'criticism' and you'll see disparagement and disapproval.

As new writers, we eventually find it necessary to offer up our work for critique. This isn't the same thing as asking friends and family to read your book. Your family will love it no matter what. Your friends may like it. If they don't, they'll merely tell you they were too busy to read it. Maybe they were too busy. Maybe they couldn't choke it down because your writing wasn't up to par.

The truth is, you're not getting an honest critique of your work. If you jump the gun and start querying and sending partials willy-nilly into the publishing world, there's a good chance you'll be disappointed by the results. Rejections will likely pour in with the regularity of an electric bill. Maybe you'll give up, convinced that you suck. Or maybe you'll realize that there are people out there who can really help.

So, you join a writers' group or forum. You get tips on making your work better. You discover flaws like passive voice, showing not telling, info dump and wooden dialogue.

Maybe a critique is particularly harsh, and you instantly take it personally. Perhaps you lash back, telling everybody you know that the critiquer is mean. If that's the case, you have a lot to learn about the critiquing process. Resist the urge to diss the critiquer. Don't flounce off in a huff because your brilliant prose didn't blow the socks off everyone who read it. The people who think they're helping you are not necessarily professionals, and not all of them know how to assess another writer's work with an objective eye.

Take each comment, positive or negative, and store them in a safe place. Take some time to cool off and look at the comments again.

Some will be inconsequential, like: "I thought that joke was in poor taste and I don't think you should use it." So what if the reader didn't like the joke? A thousand others will. Disregard.

Some will sting: "Using excessive 'there was' is the sign of an amateur". Okay, that could have been worded differently, so take it in its intended context -- omit excessive 'there was'.

Some will be extremely unhelpful: "This sucks. You can't write." Or: "I didn't like the plot." Ignore these people and move on.

Most will be helpful, and eventually their advice will percolate into your psyche if the same tips are given again and again.

Above all, whether you agree or disagree, take the time to thank your critiquer.

Toothpaste
01-01-2008, 02:09 AM
Then read it again here: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1923445&postcount=25

And may I add that not reading every post posted in a thread YOU started is EXACTLY the problem you are having as a writer in general. You rush things, don't read things carefully. And you know what? You're insulted someone responded to your post with a harsh critique? Well I'm insulted to learn that I have put some time in to try to help your situation and the only way I can get you to care about what I am offering you for no better reason than I care, is to ask several times: "Did you read my post?" Who else do you forget to read? What other advice that has been so carefully phrased and given do you ignore?

awatkins
01-01-2008, 02:10 AM
no. There were so many posts building up I couldn't keep up.

Then you might like to take a few minutes to carefully read all the posts in this thread. You got some really helpful comments and thoughtful respsonses. There's no time limit on reading and pondering. :)

Marian Perera
01-01-2008, 02:13 AM
Oh, and one more thing, Blue...

Apologies are polite. But they are not a substitute for reading what other people have said, especially when those people put time and effort into explaining something to you. Nor will they compensate for a habit of saying what one does not actually mean. I'd prefer you took some time to read through your own posts and ours rather than repeatedly saying that you're sorry.

JeanneTGC
01-01-2008, 02:14 AM
no. There were so many posts building up I couldn't keep up. But I'm sorry if anything I have said was misunderstood. This happens a lot.
Color me unsurprised.

BlueLucario
01-01-2008, 02:21 AM
This contradicts what you said earlier - "you/he didn't tell me how to fix it". This makes it sound as though you do expect corrections. Now it's possible that you're posting in such a hurry that what you say isn't what you mean, but again that comes down to taking your time and thinking through what you've written, which is what people have said in their crits of your work as well. If you say something in one post, but soon reply to say that that that actually wasn't what you meant, then it can get very tiring and frustrating for people who are trying to have a discussion with you.

I'm sorry if I'm a waste of time. And yes maybe I rushed a bit, that might be the case but i'm not sure. You're right, I will admit that I never listen to your advice maybe SOME of it, but not every single one that's thrown at me.


As for giving you an example of what you did wrong, if someone says "the dialogue in your story sounded forced and there were infodumps", then you might want to examine the story yourself to see if you can spot infodumps or examples of forced dialogue. It's nice if the critter includes an example, but this isn't a requirement, nor should it be a reason to dismiss the crit/complain about the critter.

I ask for examples because I don't understand. I ask questions because I don't understand. And If I can make a conclusion on what you're trying to say, I'll say it.

Moon Daughter
01-01-2008, 02:31 AM
Blue, I suggest for you to take a step back for a few. This whole thread has been defensive and even I can feel the tension from all the way over here (ahh, the wonders of the internet). As for the critter, he doesn't need to tell you every little thing you need to fix. I understand you're looking for an example, but not everyone has the time or patience to do that for anything they voluntarily critique. I think it might be good for a lot of people to step away from this thread because I don't feel like anything is getting any better and I fear there's hostility between members here (and I'm not naming names). And Blue, other people here have given you sound advice. Read other people's critiques, crit other writer's work, read novels you love, write your own work, and read some books on grammar and styles of writing. And please stop apologizing. Just say what you feel, but be sincere and genuine.

So why don't we all just sit back and relax? Man, I could really use an alcoholic beverage about now.

BlueLucario
01-01-2008, 02:35 AM
Then read it again here: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1923445&postcount=25

And may I add that not reading every post posted in a thread YOU started is EXACTLY the problem you are having as a writer in general. You rush things, don't read things carefully. And you know what? You're insulted someone responded to your post with a harsh critique? Well I'm insulted to learn that I have put some time in to try to help your situation and the only way I can get you to care about what I am offering you for no better reason than I care, is to ask several times: "Did you read my post?" Who else do you forget to read? What other advice that has been so carefully phrased and given do you ignore?

I didn't see it. I told you, I ask questions because I don't understand. And I never said his critique was harsh, and I never insulted him(Probably didn't mean to if I did.)

I don't need to ask questions anymore because I found a post that may really help a lot. You said read books, novels, etc. I'm already taking your advice.

And I know an apology isnt enough.

SpookyWriter
01-01-2008, 02:36 AM
I ask for examples because I don't understand. I ask questions because I don't understand.I suggest taking a few community college classes on creative writing. These classes will help you to understand what people are saying.

Marian Perera
01-01-2008, 02:36 AM
I'm sorry if I'm a waste of time.

Please, PLEASE stop apologizing. At this point it's coming off less like courtesy and more like self-pity.


And yes maybe I rushed a bit, that might be the case but i'm not sure. You're right, I will admit that I never listen to your advice maybe SOME of it, but not every single one that's thrown at me.

I'm not sure if you intended to say "I never listen to your advice", but nevertheless it was in your post. So, if you never listen to people's advice, why should they give you any, much less answer your questions?


I ask for examples because I don't understand. He write the crit like I'm expected to be smart. I ask questions because I don't understand.

1. People have pointed out other ways to become more experienced with writing, such as reading published novels and comparing them to your own work.

2. I'd be happy to explain something if I felt reasonably certain that at the end of the explanation, the other person would understand. You might want to ask yourself if critters will have this reasonable expectation of you.

3. You are not expected to be smart. But you are expected to be proactive in the learning process, rather than asking the same question over and over again and not reading through what people say to you.

Bekah
01-01-2008, 02:37 AM
no. There were so many posts building up I couldn't keep up. But I'm sorry if anything I have said was misunderstood. This happens a lot.


Wow. Since you often don't seem to know how people will interpret what you've written, I will helpfully offer my reaction:

If you don't read part of the replies to the threads you start, then I have better things to do that offer you critiques. For instance, I could be plucking my eyebrows or sanitizing my toothbrush.

The next time you've posted something for critique, asking, "Is the dialogue natural?" or, "Is this disturbing?" or, "Does this story make my butt look big?" I'm going to hit that little x in the upper right-hand corner of my screen. Instead of offering a crit to someone who has admitted to being too busy (or whatever your excuse is) to read responses, I'll crit someone who will appreciate it and respond graciously.

Monkey
01-01-2008, 02:40 AM
Kuwisdelu and Blue:

I am one of those critters that says, "I would have done it this way" or "I would have used this word instead".

I can promise you that it isn't because I want to brag, or because I know oh-so-much more than you, or because I'm trying to somehow take over your writing.

It's usually because the problem I'm seeing is one of style rather than substance.

A sentence can be grammatically correct, but read choppy. It can be grammatically correct but use a word in an unusual way...or be out of context...or simply not convey the same "feel" as the rest of the piece. When I see a problem like this, I won't say, "You did this wrong". I'll say that, were it me, I would have done it another way. Then I'll tell you how I would have done it.

Why would I do that?

I'd do it because I respect you as an author. I believe that you are completely capable of reading my suggestion, understanding that it is a suggestion and a matter of personal preference, and then deciding for yourself how YOU would do it. I had an issue what you wrote (if I didn't, I wouldn't be offering ways of changing it). I told you how I would write it. Now...do you agree with me, or will you leave the piece unchanged. Totally up to you. I'm not arrogant enough to tell you that my way is the right way.

Now, Blue, the person who gave you that crit was much harsher than I am...I wouldn't have done it that way.

But realize this: that person took the time to read your entire piece. They then took the time to post about it...and their post was rather involved. They even gave you suggestions on how to improve it. The critter said that the thing should be re-written in third person POV. Now, rather than saying straight out, "This whole thing needs to be in third person POV," the critter said that *they* would have done it in third person and then gave you a concrete example by showing you your own text written in third person. They were trying to make a suggestion rather than laying down absolutes of right or wrong, they were taking the time to give a concrete example, and having faith that you--the author--can look over his suggestion and decide for yourself.


Those first few crits can be hard to take. You need to learn to take them before you ask for any more.

SpookyWriter
01-01-2008, 02:41 AM
I'll crit someone who will appreciate it and respond graciously.Pick me! :hooray: My love story (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87608)

TrickyFiction
01-01-2008, 02:44 AM
From all critiques, take what you need and leave the rest. Seriously. You'll sleep better that way. It's your story. Write it your way, but if any little piece of advice strikes you as true, use it. That's what critiques are about. Don't stress over whether the critique was good or bad, whether the critter was nice or mean. Just use what you want to use. Critiques are tools; they are not the same as reviews.

BlueLucario
01-01-2008, 02:48 AM
I suggest taking a few community college classes on creative writing. These classes will help you to understand what people are saying.

That's a major? I'm not in college yet.

FennelGiraffe
01-01-2008, 02:49 AM
But the only thing I can tell you, is that he was not concise in his review.

What do you think the word concise means? That's a serious question--what do you think it means? Can you define it?



He did not answer my main question at all. "Do you find my piece of writing disturbing?"
Yes, he did. He phrased it in an indirect way, though.

Donít listen to the people who have said hurtful things about your writing. If that is their attitude, they will never get anywhere in the writing world. What you do need, however, is some objective, constructive criticism.

There is a reason as to why they have been offended by the piece, and that reason is that you have not executed your idea very well at all.
[emphasis added]

SpookyWriter
01-01-2008, 02:50 AM
That's a major? I'm not in college yet.Yeah, I already figured that much out some time ago. :D I figured you out for maybe fourteen or fifteen.

Close?

Moon Daughter
01-01-2008, 02:51 AM
That's a major? I'm not in college yet.

Creative writing can be a major, or you can just take those kinds of classes just for the heck of learning it rather than trying to get a degree. There's courses online you could take (if you wanted) and there are even classes here on our very own AW.

Toothpaste
01-01-2008, 03:02 AM
Blue - I am not trying to shame you or make you feel bad. Nor do you need to take all the advice that is given to you. But if you don't read all the advice given to you, how will you know whether it is good or bad and if you want to take it or not?

You were insulting to me because I put in a lot of work into responding to your post and you just skipped over reading it. You are free to disagree with what I wrote, but that was not the issue for me. The issue was a matter of you rushing things, as usual.

You don't need to apologise to me. Just promise me you'll read what everyone writes to you from now on. You don't have to take their advice, but please read it.

dpaterso
01-01-2008, 03:02 AM
We interrupt your regularly scheduled program--

If some of you are experiencing frustration, do step away from the thread for a moment and take a deep breath. Let's avoid pile-ons that just cause deeper frustration.

OP has admitted some comprehension difficulties, but is trying to work on this. A tidal wave of replies, some quite complex, may not be helping as much as everyone intends. Ditto for any humorous comments or digs, which may not be understood as such.

Ease up and throttle back, is all I'm suggesting.

-Derek

SpookyWriter
01-01-2008, 03:03 AM
Creative writing can be a major, or you can just take those kinds of classes just for the heck of learning it rather than trying to get a degree. There's courses online you could take (if you wanted) and there are even classes here on our very own AW.True, I agree that taking creative writing as an elective in college helps the writer to grasp the basic skills needed to write a completed story. I don't think obtaining a degree in creative writing is mandatory, but the courses offer a solid groundwork for understanding the complexities of writing stories and other written works of art.

kuwisdelu
01-01-2008, 03:05 AM
Kuwisdelu and Blue:

I am one of those critters that says, "I would have done it this way" or "I would have used this word instead".

I can promise you that it isn't because I want to brag, or because I know oh-so-much more than you, or because I'm trying to somehow take over your writing.

It's usually because the problem I'm seeing is one of style rather than substance.

A sentence can be grammatically correct, but read choppy. It can be grammatically correct but use a word in an unusual way...or be out of context...or simply not convey the same "feel" as the rest of the piece. When I see a problem like this, I won't say, "You did this wrong". I'll say that, were it me, I would have done it another way. Then I'll tell you how I would have done it.

Why would I do that?

I'd do it because I respect you as an author. I believe that you are completely capable of reading my suggestion, understanding that it is a suggestion and a matter of personal preference, and then deciding for yourself how YOU would do it. I had an issue what you wrote (if I didn't, I wouldn't be offering ways of changing it). I told you how I would write it. Now...do you agree with me, or will you leave the piece unchanged. Totally up to you. I'm not arrogant enough to tell you that my way is the right way.

Now, Blue, the person who gave you that crit was much harsher than I am...I wouldn't have done it that way.

I guess I try to keep choppy sentences out of things I think are ready for critique. I don't usually like it when people critique my style, because it's just that--MY style. That was probably something I looked at differently when I was just starting to write, but I like my style now.

I'm at a different place than Blue, so I'm not sure why I'm commenting on this anyway. I'm sure the way you crit is just fine, but something like suggesting a story is in the wrong POV just doesn't seem like the place of a critter to me. Unless specifically asked for, I don't see why a critter would need to give suggestions about changing things like the basic way a story is told or what happens in it. Pointing out problems is one thing, but Blue has a point that--while the original critter did go out of his way to show what he meant by his 3rd person suggestion and such--he didn't say why, nor did he say why Blue's initial instinct of 1st person felt wrong to him. Maybe that's no worse than merely being unnecessary, but it's something that would bother me.

As you said, you would have gone about a critique in a different way, anyway.

But now we're just arguing about what makes a good critique vs. a bad critique, when really we should all be done here, and Blue should be moving on, as everyone has suggested.

Siddow
01-01-2008, 03:09 AM
Yeah, I already figured that much out some time ago. :D I figured you out for maybe fourteen or fifteen.

Close?

She's seventeen. Something I wish I'd checked sooner.

I wish I'd have had the balls to put myself out there when I was seventeen. You've got that going for you, Blue. I'll just say the best thing I can think of right now: You don't suck, but you've got a bit to learn. Stick around. Don't bite. Don't run around dissing critters. Do more listening than talking. Live a bit. Love a lot. And have a happy new year.

Moon Daughter
01-01-2008, 03:10 AM
Sorry for straying off topic a bit, but I think the following might be useful (depending on the person). Creative writing certainly is a wonderful tool, although not the best for some. I had a wonderful professor for my CW class, but I have found AW a much more resourceful tool in my adventure in writing a novel. But what I wanted to add on is that for Blue and for any writer, it's important to not only know how to write, but know what you're writing about.

Blue, for your story that was posted on the other forum, I think psychology might be of use to you. And no, I don't mean you need to see a therapist. I think understanding parts of psychology could help you understand your characters better and how they would act in real life, although it's safe to say that some characters out there probably don't seem so...normal.

BlueLucario
01-01-2008, 03:16 AM
Please, PLEASE stop apologizing. At this point it's coming off less like courtesy and more like self-pity.



I'm not sure if you intended to say "I never listen to your advice", but nevertheless it was in your post. So, if you never listen to people's advice, why should they give you any, much less answer your questions?



1. People have pointed out other ways to become more experienced with writing, such as reading published novels and comparing them to your own work.

2. I'd be happy to explain something if I felt reasonably certain that at the end of the explanation, the other person would understand. You might want to ask yourself if critters will have this reasonable expectation of you.

3. You are not expected to be smart. But you are expected to be proactive in the learning process, rather than asking the same question over and over again and not reading through what people say to you.


I have a question. You encourage me to read correct. Novels and compare them to my work? Does beta-reading count? Because I'm thinking of doing that, just reading for the fun of it. Did I say I love reading?

Can I also use how to write books? I just bought a Janet Evanovich book and I found it helpful. Is using a book like that a good idea? And can i use Uncle Jim as well?

It's just something I'm wondering. I don't mean to be selfish. I really want to crit other people's work but I'm not ready to do so because the last time I did, I looked pretty stupid in front of the rest of the members.I really want to return the favor because everyone helped me, but because I'm still a beginner, I'm going to have stay out of it and let someone else help them.

Birol
01-01-2008, 03:17 AM
I'm closing this thread for 2 minutes while I catch up with it. A couple of other mods made a passing comment about it to me and I want to make certain I have a clear grasp of what's going on.

Birol
01-01-2008, 03:47 AM
I had quite a few posts marked to respond to, but pretty much everyone has covered what I wanted to say.

Blue, you really need to take a deep breath and slow down. Learn to listen. If I could justify it, I'd place you in limbo for a week, which would mean that you would be able to read the forums and use PMs and rep points, but would not be able to post. This is not because you have done anything wrong, other than be a bit inconsiderate, but because you do need to slow down and learn to listen. Honestly, until someone forces you to stop, sit still, think, and comprehend, I don't think you will slow down or listen, though. Other than putting you in limbo, this is something that we, at AW, cannot do for you. You have to want to do it for yourself and make yourself do it.

You admitted that you did not read some of the comments people thoughtfully made to you because the thread was moving too fast. Do you know one of the beautiful things about forums? The conversation doesn't really go anywhere. It stays right there, waiting for you to read it. You can take as much time as you want. You can even walk away, get a drink, take a deep breath, think about what was said, before responding or reading the next post. There is no hurry. There is no rush. You can stop, breathe, think, and listen for as long as you want.

I'll repeat, you haven't done anything to wrong, but if you continue posting threads asking for advice and then ignoring the people who respond because you don't have the time to read them (it's okay to disagree with them), I will talk to MacAllister about placing you in limbo, just to try to help you learn. There will be no other reason beyond that.

People on AW do care about you, Blue, and they want to help you learn, but we can't do everything for you. We can't think for you. I believe that you're not actually looking for critiques or beta readers. What you're seeking is a mentor, someone to help you learn and guide you through the process. That's entirely different than a critique or a beta reader.

Everyone else, you should know enough to know that when a person really is frustrating you and you find yourself clenching your teeth as you respond, to step away from the keyboard, or at the very least, go play elsewhere.

There was no need for the pile-on.

I'm going to leave this thread closed until sometime next year.

BlueLucario
01-01-2008, 08:53 PM
Thank you Birol. I understand. And please note that all of this was a misunderstanding. I never said I was not satisfied with this person's critiques. It's what he said that jumped out of me. It didn't offend me, I wasn't sure if he should really say "this and that" in a review. That part was quoted at leasted three times.

That is all.

Thank you Birol, but can I still make replies to others posts and give rep points to others?

Just a question.