big fat fantasy

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sGreer

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Recently I learned through several author blogs that B&N and Borders have been pushing publishers toward shorter novels (80K-90K). In some cases the distributors have insisted that publishers split novels into two, rather than publish one big fat fantasy work of 160K or so.

Naturally, out of idle curiosity (and about 4/5ths of the way through a final polishing), I did a full character count--with spaces--on my thirty-one chapters. Divide by six. I get 177.6K total. Insert panic here.

The other alternative, apparently, is to split the novel into two. I'm afraid mine might not manage that without some significant reworking, because the story's halfway point isn't currently written to wrap up enough threads to provide a solid resolution, and the second half doesn't include a chapter or so to re-introduce readers to the ongoing conflict. Crap! Like one of the authors pointed out, a two-parter for the first book published seems like career suicide. If it were published as hardback, that's $25 from readers for an unknown author with a story that doesn't even wrap up by the end of the novel. Smaaaaaart.

So the first question is: what are the chances that my estimate on word count is way overboard by being too accurate (compared to the usual count characters in line, multiply, multiply, count pages, multiply, etc)?

And the second question is: 120K? 130K? What's a safe area?

Yes, I'm aware that if the story's demanded all these details, they should be in there. And in some ways, there are additional details of tensions because these characters will show up again in other stories, so such were retained for consistency. But it can't be all bad to say, okay, must weed out roughly thirty thousand words--tightening can be a good thing, done judiciously.

However, right now I'm looking at needing to cut roughly 57.6K to get the story down to 120K, and I'm wondering whether that's too much--or too little. At least a ballpark would be a good thing.

(I didn't plan to write 177K...)
 

DaveKuzminski

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Why not consider finishing it and then writing a shorter sequel? Then get the sequel published first and introduce the initial book(s) as a prequel.
 

Nateskate

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DaveKuzminski said:
Why not consider finishing it and then writing a shorter sequel? Then get the sequel published first and introduce the initial book(s) as a prequel.

I've wondered about these things and had the same concerns.

I wrote a trilogy, but my first book was 170,000, and the less than 100,000 rule for a first novel kept coming up.

I planned on a prequel after the trilogy. But now, I'm doing the prequel first, and it will be less than 100,000. when finished. I'm attempting to finish it off in such a way that it can be a stand alone book. This all made for a lot of extra work.

Next, I'm going to chop my trilogy into a series. I've already started working on that, which means writing more endings, and some new beginnings which is necessary for dynamics.
 

sGreer

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funny you should suggest that... I've got a prequel, about halfway done, which I had to halt long enough to modify the first finished work. Writing backwards, chronologically, made for some iffy continuity. So the prequel will probably be about 90-100K, since the story is simpler (to my eyes) than the sequel. I suppose as long as I'm three chapters from polishing on the final, I'll just finish that up and get back to writing the prequel.

I did spend some time trying to figure out whether I really could split the book into two-- 90K and 80K, respectively-- but I just don't think it'd work. If you don't write with that in mind, it seems harder to retro-fit it. There's no semi-resolution of at least half the plot points, so the reader has some kind of a wrap-up. So, I suppose I'll at least get the current work down to 150K, hope that's close enough for gov't work, and finish the first novel.

Thanks!
 

Zane Curtis

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I've been going that direction myself anyway. I've been looking at all those big fat novels and thinking to myself why write something twice as long as a viable book really needs to be? After all, it's not like someone's going to pay me twice as much money. And a fat book is a nightmare to rewrite, edit, and proof.

Personally, I've never been one to say "a story should be as long as it needs to be." Maybe I'm just a freak, but I find that I can turn an embryonic story idea into a finished manuscript of pretty much any length (within reasonable limits). It's just a question of how much I want to elaborate on the plot, and how many sub-plots and viewpoints I want to use.
 

Zane Curtis

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sGreer said:
So the first question is: what are the chances that my estimate on word count is way overboard by being too accurate (compared to the usual count characters in line, multiply, multiply, count pages, multiply, etc)?

I think it's pretty safe to say that the different results you'll see from different ways of counting the words will pale to insignificance when compared to a graphic designer's ability to stretch or squash a book based on font choice, amount of white space, etc. I wouldn't worry about it.

And the second question is: 120K? 130K? What's a safe area?

Well, let's see. 177k words comes out at about 700 pages, and 120k comes out at 480 pages. 480 pages sounds quite reasonable to me. It's fat, but not excessively so.

However, right now I'm looking at needing to cut roughly 57.6K to get the story down to 120K, and I'm wondering whether that's too much--or too little. At least a ballpark would be a good thing. (I didn't plan to write 177K...)

It's sounds like it's going to require a pretty heavy rewrite. But you would have done that anyway, right? I'd be looking to cut sub-plots and characters. Never mind continuity, if a character doesn't have much to do in this story then wave goodbye. Fewer characters means fewer loose threads to tie up. If you need them in future books, can't you just assume they've been kicking around in the background?
 

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Zane Curtis said:
I think it's pretty safe to say that the different results you'll see from different ways of counting the words will pale to insignificance when compared to a graphic designer's ability to stretch or squash a book based on font choice, amount of white space, etc. I wouldn't worry about it.?

I wouldn't count on that; the typesetter is going to get a style sheet, and with paperback genre fiction, there's not a lot of range regarding the type specs. Go look at two or three novels each from Daw, Tor, and Roc, or whatever publisher you favor. Within any single line, there's very little difference.
 

azbikergirl

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I have the same problem. Maybe this will help you.

When I finished my 5th draft, it came to 181,000 words. Yikes! So I cut a couple of subplots which required I cut a couple characters and scenes. It wasn't as painful as I'd thought, and while some of what I cut was "fun" (according to my beta reader), it wasn't central to the plot. That brought it down to 142,000. Next, I started trimming paragraphs and sentences. I have a tendency toward wordiness. For example,
At the sound of Gavin Kinshield's awe-hushed voice and its echo fading to silence, several swarthy forms darted past his ear in a burst of leather flapping, and vanished into the daylight behind him. The stench of guano hung in the air.
could be cut down to
The echo of Gavin Kinshield's awe-hushed voice faded to silence. Leather flapping, swarthy forms darted past his ear and vanished into daylight behind him. The stench of guano hung in the air.
for a 25% reduction in words, without changing what's important. This is helpful:
http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/general/gl_concise.html

I've also tried to evaluate every sentence to see if it's really necessary. So far I've gone through 1/3 of my novel and reduced it by 12% (which, if I keep that up, would put it at ~124,000 words). Another pass after I'm done should get me to my goal of 115,000.

Good luck!
 

sGreer

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Zane Curtis said:
It's sounds like it's going to require a pretty heavy rewrite. But you would have done that anyway, right? I'd be looking to cut sub-plots and characters. Never mind continuity, if a character doesn't have much to do in this story then wave goodbye. Fewer characters means fewer loose threads to tie up. If you need them in future books, can't you just assume they've been kicking around in the background?

Ah, well, no. After the second stage, I had 130K. When I sat down to look at the plotholes and issues raised--and it's a pretty heavy story, with an intricate plot--I realized I had to add a few scenes. A few here, a few there, and expand the final three chapters where I'd previously microwaved the souffle. If I were to do 'a pretty heavy rewrite' at this point, it'd be gutting the story; the subplots are all, without exception, derived from each character's reaction to the main plot, and simplifying the main plot would reduce what's at stake for the MC (and the rest).

Believe me, I've mapped out the plot a number of ways looking for what could be simplified. It appears, for better or worse, that I just write complex plots. Having a cast of four minor characters, seven supporting characters, one main character, and two bad guys... probably doesn't help! Okay, so I write ensemble stories and complex plots.

However, you're right about the background characters. I realized they're referenced as 'off-screen' people, but that doesn't mean they have to show up in person. (In fact, one never does; she's just the other half of a phone conversation.) I'm managing to cut here and there, and I'm also doing the same as azbikergirl suggested above (studiously reviewing each sentence, but that's a normal pattern for me). So far I'm down about 7K, and expect another 7-10K by the time I'm done. Hell, if I cut ch16 out completely, that's another 6K right there!

Heh. And to think most of my friends fuss about getting higher word counts, while I fuss about trying to simplify my plots/sub-plots for lower word counts!

:Smack:
 

Kate Nepveu

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victoriastrauss said:
Kate, this is totally off topic, but I love your cat vacuuming icon. Such big round eyes...
It makes a spiffy pin, too (the drawing was done [by Suzanne Palmer] as a design for a rec.arts.sf.composition pin). There were several drawings done, all quite good, but IIRC the consensus was strongly in favor of this one--such a worried-looking cat!
 

mdin

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The final draft of my first book was 220K. After some major editing I got it down to 165 before I started submitting. Then, with my editor at the publisher it went down to 155K. It's 450 pages long, trade-sized.

The length of it was a major problem. (I have a two-inch stack of the "good rejections" where they'd actually read the thing and ended up rejecting simply because of the length.) I'm making a concerted effort to have my third book hit as close to 90K as possible. The one whose cover is my avatar is 50K long, and that didn't work out very well at first either.
 

sGreer

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Yeah, some things need fresh eyeballs. I figure if I can get to 165K, then an editor would be more than welcome to get the rest of the way. But I'm hitting my limit of what *I* can feasibly see needs to be cut, from where I stand. Want & need not being the same thing... but that's what editors are for, sometimes.
 

sGreer

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Critters? Isn't that the one where you pay to subscribe and then trade back and forth? I'm not sure I require it at this point; I have four main critters in a crit circle (writing across a broad range of fantasy styles). It was actually their points about the plotholes and missing character interactions that sent the story from 130K to 170K! But right now we're rereading with an eye towards what wouldn't be missed of 'big stuff'; I edit the 'small stuff' (sentence by sentence) on my own, for the most part.

Right now, however, I just want to have the big stuff culled, and then I can set it aside and finish the prequel (which is about halfway done).
 

mdin

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Critters is completely free. Though you do have to critique other stuff to get yours done. I've neglected it recently, but I've submitted stories and had over thirty responses. I had seven people agree to read my complete book, and they read and critiqued it pretty well.
 

azbikergirl

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My experience with Critters is that chapters posted one at a time get far fewer crits than short stories. If you can get people willing to crit your entire novel, obviously that's the way to go, but that isn't easy. Going one chapter at a time, the most often you can submit to the group is about once every 4 weeks. Critters.org also lists other crit groups, such as Hatrack (free), Critique Circle (free or paid), My Writer Buddy (free), SFF online workshops (http://sff.onlinewritingworkshop.com/ paid), etc.
 

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... B&N and Borders have been pushing publishers towards shorter novels...

So now the chances of a novel getting an agent or a publisher will be partly determined by the depth of racks in large bookstores?

Maybe B&N and Borders can program computers to write exactly the number of words they want.

Good lord.
 
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sGreer

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I've got 31 chapters, and I've learned that opening the story to crits in various circles means I get 25 crits on the first chapter and 0 on the last. (Okay, not exactly that much, but you see what I mean: proportionally more on the first three chapters means the first 3 get vetted to death and the rest is neglected.) It's been much easier to deal with doing full-novel exchanges with three other writers. We don't all crit at the same pace, but it's a variety of feedback and the assurance that the focus won't all be on that one opening chapter if it's a chapter down the line that needs the most attention.

Vomaxx: from a business POV, I see the value. Two books of 85-95K each would sell for about the same as a book at 110K but be a little cheaper in comparison to produce. (And a 600-page paperback is a honker, and can be intimidating to newcomers to the author's work.) Plus, a two-parter means the reader must buy both books, and that means double the income compared to one book of 150K, and *that* means double the royalties, too. As someone mentioned elsewhere (I think on FM), it's a great business idea...for everyone but the consumer.
 

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I'm still trying to figure out how I ended up with a 155,000 word working draft. It's not even an epic story!

I'm halfway through the first editing pass and just now got it down below 140k. I suppose it's possible I'll get it down to that "magic" 120k by the time I'm done. But I'm not particularly optimistic.

Stupid novel!
 

Zane Curtis

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Medievalist said:
I wouldn't count on that; the typesetter is going to get a style sheet, and with paperback genre fiction, there's not a lot of range regarding the type specs. Go look at two or three novels each from Daw, Tor, and Roc, or whatever publisher you favor. Within any single line, there's very little difference.

I'm not actually in typesetting, so I can't speak from experience. All I can do is compare books on my bookshelf. The two best example I have are The Redemption of Althalus by David and Leigh Eddings, and Peril's Gate by Janny Wurts. They're both fat fantasies, they're both paperbacks under the Voyager imprint of Harper Collins, and they were released within two years of each other. In comparing them, there's only one noticeable difference: Janny got squashed -- brutally, mercilessly. It's not something I'd want happening to any book of mine, so I'm going to stick with 80 to 100 thousand words.
 

sGreer

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Zane Curtis said:
In comparing them, there's only one noticeable difference: Janny got squashed -- brutally, mercilessly.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'squashed' -- as in, the typesetting was squeezed to make the story fit in fewer pages?
 

Zane Curtis

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sGreer said:
I'm not sure what you mean by 'squashed' -- as in, the typesetting was squeezed to make the story fit in fewer pages?

Yes, that's what I mean. The typeface is smaller and there's much less white space on the page. It's physically harder to read.
 
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