Choice of English for an ancient historical

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a_sharp

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I've noticed several discussions in the historical SYW critiquing usage of English phraseology, terms, expression, and whatnot. Most of the historicals in AW are set in Europe and America, or, broadly, ancient Rome. Ishtar'sGate is writing of ancient Babylon. Except for the latter, our literature relies on recorded precedent for the English spoken in certain periods, and readers have developed expectations of English dialog in period fiction.

In my case, the native language is Sumerian. There are about half a dozen people on the entire planet who can speak it well, and the language construct bears absolutely no resemblance to English.

Sumerian was an agglutinative language not just in its verb construction, but also in its noun or morpheme construction. An agglutinative type of language is one in which words are built up by stringing forms together. ... the more complex phonetic structures...often consist of sequences of smaller words combined to describe additional phenomena. --John A. Halloran

Absent any English context, I have chosen to create dialog that reads like modern American English, rather than impose an Elizabethan interpretation on it. For this my friends here have criticized my work in part because their expectation was broken, and the dialog terms took them "out of the story." These are valid points that cause me to write this post.

Getting back to Sumer, the prehistoric culture was relatively classless. It wasn't until the mid-second century BC that priests and kings began to assemble courts and develop a system of fealty. Before that we have no records to indicate social stratification. What we do have is abundant evidence of a matricentric culture grounded in mutual respect between the sexes and a reverence for female procreativity.

So to my question. Is there a compelling reason for me to include/exclude modern expressions? If I use the phrase "let's forget it" instead of "let us forget it" am I breaching a canon of some sort? For that matter, are contractions right out? Will the reader care? Would you care? Must I resort to Medieval or Renaissance argot when neither has more application than L. A. street talk?

Another example, the use of "madam" and "sir" between high priest and priestess or between bodyguard and queen, as an expression of mutual respect rather than the deference implied by "exalted one" or "my queen."

I'm not being cynical or sarcastic. I really want the opinions of my fellow historian writers, even though most of you write Euro-American period stories. I'm well into my Sumerian WIP, but now is better than later to make changes.

Recommendations, opinions, examples welcome.
 

a_sharp

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In River God Wilbur Smith writes of an ancient Egypt familiar to us through film and archaeological record. His MC is a high priest advisor to the Pharaoh, and so his language reflects deference and strict adherance to titular power. It's written in first person, so we have Taita's POV as a courtier and politician. Smith is heavy on narrative (a bit wordy for my taste) but the point is, his style is more stilted and aloof than mine, as reflects his MC's character. I don't find much in Smith's writing I can depend on.
 

Zelenka

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This is a difficult one, and something I've argued about a few times myself. I've been told off for 'modernisms' in fiction, both in period English stuff and stories like your own where the language being spoken isn't English. With both examples, I always think that the main point is that this is a fictional book for modern readers, not a reproduction of an ancient text. If I were, say, to write a book set in 13th Century England and reproduce the dialogue faithfully, I imagine I'd lose everyone by the end of the first chapter if not sooner. I think the same would apply to writing like your example where they would be speaking in another language. You want to give an impression of the period without putting readers off.

Personally I wouldn't halt over 'sir' or 'madam' in something set in Ancient Sumer or Ancient Egypt. One thing you could do, I suppose, is use the term in that language. Personally I'm not keen on this but I have seen a lot of people do it (for example, I've read a lot of Roman fiction where they use 'dominus' and 'domina' instead of sir and madam).
 

girlyswot

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So, I'm definitely not one of the half-dozen fluent Sumerian speakers but I do know several other ANE languages moderately well. My own WIP is set in Ancient Ugarit and is based on a Ugaritic myth I translated earlier this year. And I agree, it's virtually impossible to convey the structure and rhythm of these kind of languages in English.

But it seems to me that when you're writing fiction, you need to create an illusion for your readers that allows them to hear something they can classify as 'Sumerian speech' or 'Ugaritic speech' which does sound different from modern speech. It won't be Sumerian (or Ugaritic) obviously, but I don't think that matters too much. For me, as a reader, if I hear something that I know to be very modern, it does shatter that illusion.

So I think I'm aiming for mainly 'neutral' English. I don't want things that are going to remind my reader of the modern world, but I'm also not aiming for Shakespearian. And then I'll scatter that 'neutral' English with very occasional technical terms, or endearments and so on that will flavour it with something distinctly Ugaritic.

Does that help?
 

donroc

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I suggest an explanation and example or two in an Author's Note at the beginning and then do what you decide is best. If your friends read the A.N., then they will have no expectations of something else. If that doesn't work with them, get new friends or spare them the privilege of reading your ms.

www.donaldmichaelplatt.com

:Lecture::Lecture::Lecture::Lecture::Lecture:
 

Memnon624

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In my second book, Memnon (the story of Memnon of Rhodes), the Greeks spoke modern English, contractions and all, while the Persians and Egyptians in the story spoke a more formal English -- no contractions, and more of a European style construction when asking questions ("You are the Rhodian called Memnon, no?"). It seemed to work fairly well inasmuch as no one's busted my chops over it.

I agree with Girlyswot: go for the flavor of Sumerian while keeping it accessible to modern English-speakers. Have you read Harry Turtledove's Between the Rivers? Everybody talks like they're frickin' reciting Gilgamesh! It was interesting in the first chapter but quickly got annoying. Find a happy medium, I say ;)

Best,

Scott
 

Puma

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Hi A Sharp - Since I'm the partial cause of your question, I thought I'd give you some of my thoughts.

You say Sumerian is an agglutinative language, and from your description it sounds to me a bit like German which also builds words from many little pieces. So that's one thought - could you possibly construct some of your dialogue in a bit more Germanic fashion?

I think that in historicals use of things like contractions can depend a bit on the character using them - contractions (and idioms) are more plausible in the speech of a teenager than in the speech of an elder statesman. So you can create some variation based on which of your characters is speaking.

In your question about using "let's forget it" - if your primary question is about using the contraction, you could instead just say "forget it". I suspect that something like that was said in every time period.

I think Girlyswot gave you some excellent advice. You want to give the reader something plausible - you want the reader to believe you know how ancient Sumerians talked. As Girlyswot said - you want to create the illusion. People who would read a book about ancient Sumer want two things (in addition to story) - history and flavor. The flavor is what you're talking about and it is very important even if it's 100% contrived (my opinion). Good luck! Puma
 

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First...just curious about that mid-second century B.C. part. Unless I'm mistaken, the Mesopotamian region was part of the Persian Empire, and thus would have been exposed to class structures and fealty at a far earlier period.

Second...I think girlyswot and others have given great advice, to which I can only add a heartfelt "me too!". Puma's notion of "flavor" is a great insight, too. You obviously can't recreate the language into any sort of accessible English, but I think the goal here should be walking that line between something that feels historical, but that remains accessible.
 

Carmy

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Contractions and modern English in historicals doesn't bother me. What does bother me is reading modern colloqualisms like "get with the program" (an exaggeration), or "I'll fix it" because they pull me out of a story. Perhaps that's what your friends meant.
 

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Avoid slang, but lord, no, don't deliberately introduce archaisms.

Do use the kinds of English vocabulary that is appropriate for Sumerian clothing, food, and artifacts. So, yeah, you might refer to tablets, and beer, and salt . . .
 

pdr

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At the moment...

editors and publishers want plain English, without idioms. Modern American, with its idioms, does tend to pull a reader out of the story.

I'd like to add my voice to those who suggest that you create in your world something you are comfortable with and which will give a taste of your era to the reader without gadzookery or modern idioms.
 

Doogs

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Contractions and modern English in historicals doesn't bother me. What does bother me is reading modern colloqualisms like "get with the program" (an exaggeration), or "I'll fix it" because they pull me out of a story. Perhaps that's what your friends meant.

Reminds me of a certain book I read where one character, a Visigoth from the 5th century A.D., boldly declared "it's just what the doctor ordered!"

Yeah. That was a slap-hand-to-forehead-and-groan moment, for sure.
 

Carmy

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Reminds me of a certain book I read where one character, a Visigoth from the 5th century A.D., boldly declared "it's just what the doctor ordered!"

Yeah. That was a slap-hand-to-forehead-and-groan moment, for sure.

LOL It's so easy to slip up. I once used "mill pond" but mills didn't exist during the time period of my story.

And who remembers seeing the black high heels and the wrist watch in a crowd scened set in ancient Rome?
 

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Reminds me of a certain book I read where one character, a Visigoth from the 5th century A.D., boldly declared "it's just what the doctor ordered!"

Yeah. That was a slap-hand-to-forehead-and-groan moment, for sure.

Except that it's a reasonable comment/joke for the time--Cicero uses, for instance. True, it's a stretch from Latin to Gothic, but an awful lot of common idioms are more human in nature, than specifically English/American and contemporary.
 

Doogs

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Except that it's a reasonable comment/joke for the time--Cicero uses, for instance.

Really, where? I've read my fair share of Cicero, but don't recall seeing the phrase.

And I was under the impression it had it's origins in the early 20th century (at least according to the American Heritage Dictionary of Idioms).
 

girlyswot

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An awful lot of common idioms are more human in nature, than specifically English/American and contemporary.

Yes, that's true. I remember in one of our Ugaritic ritual texts there was a discussion of a hangover treatment literally described as the hair of the dog.

But I wonder if the point I made earlier about illusion still stands. Even if these phrases are historically accurate/plausible, what's important for the reader is that they sound as if they are. So I think I wouldn't have a 5th century Visigoth say 'It's just what the doctor ordered,' but maybe some variant that communicates the same idea but with a slightly different expression. 'Precisely what was prescribed.' Or something better than that (!) that fits within the rest of the speech pattern you're using.
 

Doogs

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But I wonder if the point I made earlier about illusion still stands. Even if these phrases are historically accurate/plausible, what's important for the reader is that they sound as if they are. So I think I wouldn't have a 5th century Visigoth say 'It's just what the doctor ordered,' but maybe some variant that communicates the same idea but with a slightly different expression.

This.

Even if it is accurate (need to go back to my Cicero!), "it's just what the doctor ordered" sounds like a modern idiom. It probably doesn't help that it makes the reader (or me, at least) think of Dr. Pepper, whose presence in 5th century Europe would be an anachronism of hyperbolic proportions.

Personally, I would have gone with something along the lines of "it's just the thing you need".

I actually play with this a bit in my own WIP. There's a scene, late in the book, when my MC is waiting and waiting to hear from someone. When he finally puts the waiting aside and distracts himself with something else, he finds himself summoned. He observes as much to the household steward, who tells him that the kitchen slaves have a saying about such a thing..."a pot will never boil, so long as it is being watched." Which, I think, conveys the idea and the universality of various idioms without resorting to the modern verbiage.
 

andrewhollinger

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Hey everybody,

Thought I'd check out this thread, and it may be too late to add anything innovative or helpful anyway. I found this topic interesting and wanted to add my two cents. However, I must qualify my response: I am not a historical novelist (although it's not beyond me to write a period piece someday), but my degree is in history. I have read many historical novels.

I agree that overly stilting your English will sound pedantic.

I have no idea how your novel is set up, how do we get to Sumer? But I am reminded of Memoirs of a Geisha. Kind of historical. And his intro was that he was a professor translating this memoir, so please excuse the occasional endeavors into trying to follow the cadence and flow of her Japanese dialect.

I thought this was adequate enough to allow him the opportunity to include some Japanese vocabulary for us to learn and use throughout the text, and also allow for some strange English phraseology.

Would that work for you? Or does that at least provide an idea?
 
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