Coal? Steam? Oof.

PeeDee · Nov 3, 2007

So, as part of my novel -- set in late 1940 and early 1941 -- I'm going to be getting into some locomotive talk. I'm looking forward to it. Initially, I wanted to use Steam engines, because those had their demise in the late 1940's, and I'd like to make reference to that (the demise of things is a theme of the novel).

Unfortunately, I know so little about locomotives. Googling is giving me fascinating pictures and information on the internal combustion engine. And I have to admit, all my train knowledge comes from movies, where they were so commonly coal trains, with the driver (There's a better term for that, but it doesn't cross my mind right now) and the engineer who shoveled coal into the engine. I can write the story's scenes around either the coal engine, or the steam engine.

...But I know nothing about 'em. And the character who runs the train knows lots and lots about them (he's a bit mentally handicapped. He's not so good at life, or people, or things, but he knows everything about this train.)

Any useful resources any of you fine feathered folk can point me toward? Barring that, is there anyone here with knowledge or general trivia about steam/coal locomotives whose brain I can pick, unto death?

Rolling Thunder · Nov 3, 2007

Here, Pete.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_United_States_railway_history

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Chief

Diesel was becoming all the rage by the mid 1930's.

Histry Nerd · Nov 3, 2007

PeeDee -

The largest coal-fired steam locomotives ever built (coal-fired because the military needed the diesel overseas) were built by ALCO for Union Pacific during WWII. Five (I think) remain in working order. They have one here with a couple of paragraphs and a picture. They were nicknamed "Big Boys" by the railway industry.

The folks at the museum were very knowledgeable and friendly when I took my Cub Scouts there for a field trip. They can probably tell you what you need to know, or at least point you to some sources.

Hope this helps.
HN

PeeDee · Nov 3, 2007

Yeah! And I love that Diesel was catching on, because it fits my theme perfectly. 1940 was such a pivotal year, the perfect year to set my story in (researching historical fiction makes me as happy as writing it).

Those are exactly the sort of pages I was needing. I hit Wikipedia, but I must not have been asking the right things, because I didn't find anything useful like this at all. You're the proverbial man. Thankyew...

PeeDee · Nov 3, 2007

Oh....a coal-fired steam engine. I didn't even consider that (above, I was mentioning coal OR steam engines...I didn't know such a thing as this existed). How fascinating. I think that might be too upscale for my little tribe, but I'm going to go read up on it anyway.

Say, they have a phone number.

Hey, they have a Contact the Museum button by e-mail. Hmn. I bet if I asked nicely...!

Rolling Thunder · Nov 3, 2007

Try your searches 'outside the box'. I went with: decline of the US railways, knowing that, at some point, diesel overtaking steam would give me some direction.

Puma · Nov 3, 2007

Sort of an aside, but there's a very nicely done Johnny Cash documentary I think called "Riding the Rails" that tells a lot about the history of the railroads, types of engines, etc. I enjoyed it.

I got to take quite a few trips on steam powered trains when I was a kid (much later than 1941). There's nothing quite like watching the puffing and clouds of billowing smoke/steam that pour out from down around the drive wheels. I loved them. Puma

PeeDee · Nov 3, 2007

Part of it's just me and my medicine head. I could NOT get Google to give up the month in 1940 the draft went into effect. I was almost positive when it was (I had researched it before, but lost my note) and no matter what I typed, I got nothing but weird stuff.

(I found my notes: It was October, 1940, through 1947).

Wikipedia Timeline said:
1940s: World War II brings railroads the highest ridership in American history, as soldiers are being sent to fight overseas in the Pacific Theater and the European Theater. However, automobile travel causes ridership to decline after the war ends.

That's fascinating, because although the railroad ridership was really high, it was probably mostly on Diesel engines, and definitely not on any of the older engines, such as were used to build the Transcontinental Railroad, in 1862-1869. This is perfect.

...

Wow, with trains like the Super Chief 2, it's no wonder that the steam and coal engines (which practically doddled compared to the Chief) went out of popularity.

PeeDee · Nov 3, 2007

Puma said:
Sort of an aside, but there's a very nicely done Johnny Cash documentary I think called "Riding the Rails" that tells a lot about the history of the railroads, types of engines, etc. I enjoyed it.

I got to take quite a few trips on steam powered trains when I was a kid (much later than 1941). There's nothing quite like watching the puffing and clouds of billowing smoke/steam that pour out from down around the drive wheels. I loved them. Puma

Details like that are really useful too, because while I want to get the mechanics and facts straight on this -- since Charlie knows his trains -- I want to get the experience right too. It's not an immediate concern (all I immediately need it for is, I would like the train to be stranded very briefly because they need more fuel, of some sort, and the disapproving town won't sell them any. That's the key bit.)

Conductor. THAT'S the word I was looking for, earlier.

Histry Nerd · Nov 3, 2007

PeeDee said:
Oh....a coal-fired steam engine. I didn't even consider that (above, I was mentioning coal OR steam engines...I didn't know such a thing as this existed). How fascinating. I think that might be too upscale for my little tribe, but I'm going to go read up on it anyway.

Actually, all the coal-fired engines were steam engines--diesel-fired steam, which was easier because nobody had to shovel it, came later. Then somebody got the bright idea to use a diesel engine to charge a bunch of giant batteries (similar to hybrid cars today), and the diesel/electric engine we use on heavy rail today was born.

Don't ask me for dates. I have no idea. I really only know this stuff because I took the tour with my Cub Scouts.

HN

PeeDee · Nov 3, 2007

Histry Nerd said:
Actually, all the coal-fired engines were steam engines--diesel-fired steam, which was easier because nobody had to shovel it, came later. Then somebody got the bright idea to use a diesel engine to charge a bunch of giant batteries (similar to hybrid cars today), and the diesel/electric engine we use on heavy rail today was born.

Don't ask me for dates. I have no idea. I really only know this stuff because I took the tour with my Cub Scouts.

HN

That's okay, I can figure out dates just fine on my own. But that's really interesting, because I didn't know that. All I know is that the engineer shovels coal into the hot little door. Unless it's back to the future,and then it's colored sticks of dynamite.

Okay, so I can shovel coal into my steam engine. That works out perfectly. I really wanted someone to have to shovel coal.

san_remo_ave · Nov 3, 2007

Not sure where you're going with your story, Pete, but we were just reminiscing the other day about my grandfather-in-law who used to be a real-deal, freight train hopping hobo. And coal miner after he settled down and got married.

This wiki link has 1940's era hobo 'lingo' and 'code' which I thought was kinda cool.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobo

c.e.lawson · Nov 3, 2007

I don't know where you live, PeeDee, but perhaps you can find a restored steam engine someplace within driving distance that gives rides to tourists. I live in the Los Angeles area and I can easily drive to a few. I did a Google search for steam engine rides and they seem to be all over.

Are you finished with your Rome novel? (Not sure, but I don't think they had steam engines in ancient Rome.)

Good luck!

c.e.

PeeDee · Nov 3, 2007

Not finished with my Rome novel, no, but I like to have a bit of overlap. The end of the Rome novel is hard, hard, hard, and so I'm working on The Nondescript as a way to keep writing, relieve stress, and win The Tea Debacle...

I gave the premise of this novel on a blog, a couple of days ago. Let's see...

Here it is...

Me said:
The Nondescript is the story of a young man in the year 1940, one of the last years that the traveling carnivals and freak shows made their way around the country, one of the first years of the draft for World War II. Our hero evades the draft and joins the carnival in lunatic disguise and travels across America with them. It's a road trip, and a murder mystery and a story about accounting, and America, and wars. Mostly, it's a love story.

So that's what I'm working with. I have a lot of characters and a lot of research I'm thrilling with (that hobo talk comes in really useful. I have hobos!). For example, in a few weeks, I need to start digesting coin tricks and sleight of hand for my Magician-Except-He's-Not-Anything-But-A-Pick-Pocket-And-A-Cheater...

I hadn't thought about looking for a tourist-riding train in this area. I'm not too far from Minneapolis, if I can't find it in the vicinity of the bigger cities, I'll be really surprised.

frimble3 · Nov 4, 2007

If you don't have a local railway museum, try model train shops, they may be able to put you in touch with local resources. Also, there was some mention of not being able to get fuel locally. If the train burns coal, I believe it will burn wood. There's a bit in "The Seven-per-Cent Solution" where they break up and burn the other car to provide fuel to run the train. Also, 'steam engine' implies the use of a lot of water. Again, I don't know specifics, but there were a lot of little towns on the rail-lines that started out as places to water trains.

pdr · Nov 4, 2007

Ah steam engines!

The coal fired the boiler which heated the water which was under pressure and turned to steam. That's what the engine driver told a five year old me on the foot plate.

Don't forget the smell. A wet sooty smell, with smuts everywhere. A coal fired engine was dirty and bits of grit could fly into your face from the funnel. And hot metal and hot wet steam had a scent all their own? Remember the hissing and grumbling of the engine and the sing song clicketty-clack on the rails? The sway of the carriages and the whooshing noise as the engine exhaled coming into a station and slowing down? And the little snorts as the engine waited in the station. They were alive!
Ah me. Every engine had its own name and character and it was the way to travel!

Puma · Nov 4, 2007

PeeDee - A red flag has gone up in my head on what you're talking about. There were steam locomotives operating on main lines in the states well up into the 50's and even 60's. My aunt used to come to Columbus, Ohio on the train several times a year. The station in Columbus was a grand old thing (unfortunately gone now) and you could look from the windows out over the tracks and see the trains coming in on several tracks from the west. In many cases there were diesels and steam locomotives side by side.

Look for data on the rail line that ran in the area where your story is based - here we had Chesapeake and Ohio and Baltimore and Ohio as the main two, but there were so many lines - see when the last steam train ran on the line your story would be on - I think you'll find it was later than you're talking about even on trans-continental runs. (Northern Pacific might have been in your area if you're writing about your own locale.)

There are many, many rail enthuiasts, especially steam enthusiasts - make sure you are very careful on presenting accurate data. Puma

Added note: Steam trains also needed water to operate - maybe your train could be stranded because it needs water. There were wood water tanks with wood chutes that could be lowered down to put water in the trains, frequently these were on the edges of small towns. You'll want to get some data on water too.

PeeDee · Nov 4, 2007

frimble3 said:
If you don't have a local railway museum, try model train shops, they may be able to put you in touch with local resources. Also, there was some mention of not being able to get fuel locally. If the train burns coal, I believe it will burn wood. There's a bit in "The Seven-per-Cent Solution" where they break up and burn the other car to provide fuel to run the train. Also, 'steam engine' implies the use of a lot of water. Again, I don't know specifics, but there were a lot of little towns on the rail-lines that started out as places to water trains.

This business of water has rapidly become the lynchpin of the chapter, and I'm delighting in it, because I never felt properly accurate about having them desperately trying to get enough coal to get to another town. I don't think my poor folk can afford to have their coal car full, but I don't think they'd let it get as empty as this. BUT...water ties into the drought (the perfect excuse) and they would need to refuel that.

Puma said:
PeeDee - A red flag has gone up in my head on what you're talking about. There were steam locomotives operating on main lines in the states well up into the 50's and even 60's. My aunt used to come to Columbus, Ohio on the train several times a year. The station in Columbus was a grand old thing (unfortunately gone now) and you could look from the windows out over the tracks and see the trains coming in on several tracks from the west. In many cases there were diesels and steam locomotives side by side.

Look for data on the rail line that ran in the area where your story is based - here we had Chesapeake and Ohio and Baltimore and Ohio as the main two, but there were so many lines - see when the last steam train ran on the line your story would be on - I think you'll find it was later than you're talking about even on trans-continental runs. (Northern Pacific might have been in your area if you're writing about your own locale.)

There are many, many rail enthuiasts, especially steam enthusiasts - make sure you are very careful on presenting accurate data. Puma

Added note: Steam trains also needed water to operate - maybe your train could be stranded because it needs water. There were wood water tanks with wood chutes that could be lowered down to put water in the trains, frequently these were on the edges of small towns. You'll want to get some data on water too.

It's the enthusiasts which are mostly why I'm going after as much detail and user-experience on this as I can. I mean, all of this research is for a chapter that's quite a ways down the road. 40,000 words or more before I get near it. But I want to get it right. I've been on all sorts of modes of travel, but I've never been on any sort of train (Lord knows why, since I adore the idea of train travel).

Fortunately, the idea of steam engines failing and fading to the diesel isn't nearly key to my story. In fact, that part of the story works regardless. This engine is in good shape (as good as can be, with nothing but a loving conductor holding it together) but is still very old and very shabby. So while in other parts of the country, as you so accurately point out, steam engines are being used alongside diesel engines, my shuddering little train can still be dilapidated.

Rolling Thunder · Nov 4, 2007

Yeah, you wouldn't want enthusiasts to become steamed at you, Pete.

Oh. I'm sorry. That was an obvious derailment statement.

Or was it?

girlyswot · Nov 4, 2007

PeeDee said:
But I want to get it right. I've been on all sorts of modes of travel, but I've never been on any sort of train (Lord knows why, since I adore the idea of train travel).

Wow! I mean - Really? Never?

Is that normal in America? (I'm assuming you're American because of your story, but actually I'd be equally intrigued to know of anywhere where people don't travel on trains at all.)

PeeDee · Nov 4, 2007

Never. It IS weird. Been on all manner of planes, from international jumbo jets to rickety little sea-planes (those are an experience) and all sorts of buses and everything from trollies to mini-vans with the doors cut off which locals are calling "buses" or "taxis" (but which wiser people call "a horrible idea, but the only way to get around on this damn island")

But never trains. Not even an Amtrak. Closest would be the sort of mono-rails that you take tours aboard, around zoos, or the like.

(I mean, I've been ON trains, but never traveled on trains.)

I can't speak for the rest of Americans, but I know it bugs me. I keep looking for an excuse to go somewhere and do it by train.

Rolling Thunder · Nov 4, 2007

You need to look for a 'Murder Mystery Train' in your area, Pete. We have a few here, where you spend the weekend traveling on an old steam train and a group of actors stage a murder. The passengers are encouraged to help solve the plot. A friend of mine went on one and enjoyed it immensely.

PeeDee · Nov 4, 2007

Rllgthunder said:
You need to look for a 'Murder Mystery Train' in your area, Pete. We have a few here, where you spend the weekend traveling on an old steam train and a group of actors stage a murder. The passengers are encouraged to help solve the plot. A friend of mine went on one and enjoyed it immensely.

I just looked it up.

...how could I not know about that? Oh my god. I'd never heard of that before.

Researching that also led me to discover the Minnesota Transportation Museum, and some other local Train Tribes.

...Research is so much fun. I don't get why anyone ever gripes about it...

PeeDee · Nov 4, 2007

And I have just discovered this place, with the stunning locomotives pictured, which is in Duluth, which is not particularly far from where I live. Great success.

lkp · Nov 4, 2007

PeeDee said:
This business of water has rapidly become the lynchpin of the chapter, and I'm delighting in it, because I never felt properly accurate about having them desperately trying to get enough coal to get to another town. I don't think my poor folk can afford to have their coal car full, but I don't think they'd let it get as empty as this. BUT...water ties into the drought (the perfect excuse) and they would need to refuel that.

...With water you could also have a slow leak in the boiler that they don't notice. That combined with a general drought would make them less dopey.

Coal? Steam? Oof.

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