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nancy sv
11-01-2007, 05:47 PM
Talk about irresponsible reporting! I can’t figure out how this one got through the channels – anyone care to take a guess?

I teach at a high school in the largest, fastest-growing district in the state of Idaho. Yesterday morning the district superintendent came over to talk with us about an article that came out around the nation yesterday which listed our school as a “drop-out factory”. Apparently, the “study” (I hesitate to call it a study since it was so terribly flawed) identified a bunch of schools with high drop-out rates and then issued a blanket statement that we are all failing our kids by not keeping them in school.

The real story here is this: the way the researchers at John’s Hopkins gathered data was to simply look at the number of freshmen in a given school in 2001. Then they went forward four years and looked at the number of graduating seniors in 2004. Here is the data for our school:

* In 2001 we had 684 9th graders
* In 2004 we graduated 343 seniors
Which equals a drop-out rate of 50%

* In 2002 we had 721 9th graders
* in 2005 we graduated 376 seniors
Which equals a drop-out rate of 48%

* In 2003 we had 478 9th graders
* in 2006 we graduated 405 seniors
Which equals a drop-out rate of 15%

On the surface it looks like we had a whole lot of kids drop out those two years, eh?? Here’s the kicker. In 2001 and 2002 our school was horribly overcrowded. We had 2500 kids packed into a school built for 1500. In 2003, another high school opened, which took over 1000 of our kids – including all those who had supposedly “dropped-out”!!!!

So now we are sitting here with a huge story in the local newspaper claiming we are a drop-out factory, when EVERYONE knows it isn’t true!! Our district superintendent spent the whole day before the article came out contacting the paper and the researchers at John’s Hopkins, and they all agree the data is flawed. And yet – they didn’t pull the article! Please help me understand how something so erroneous and damaging could possibly be printed in newspapers around the nation.

jst5150
11-01-2007, 06:08 PM
If everything you say jives, then that's irresponsible reporting (having worked with media for 19 years, I'd believe it). The focus should have been changed. However, shifting the focus to something more responsible doesn't sell newspapers. Dropouts sell. Shifting students doesn't.

This has more to do with editors and publishers than it does reporters. Reporters have to file a story. They want to move from page 6 to page 1. They may turn in a story filled wiht hafl-truths (which means they don;t lie), in order to boost themselves. Editors and publishers don't notice.

Again, unless there are a myriad other facts here not reported (or not told by you); and both are probably true since a story like this usually contains many facets, then the story's focus should have been shifted. Now comes the solution part ...

You need to write the newspaper; you need to have your school system's PR person (you should have one) aggressively attack the story. You need to get teachers stumping. You need to get parents telling the story. Until then, the newspaper's story has control of the conversation.

nancy sv
11-01-2007, 06:16 PM
You wouldn't believe the response our school and district has mounted!! We've written letters to the editor, we've written to the researchers demanding a public apology, we've contacted the TV stations. I do feel that we, as a school, and our district office are doing everything we can. It just seems too bizarre that this was allowed to go through.

I guess I really shouldn't be surprised - after all I was living in a small town in Honduras that was supposedly "attacked" by the Sandinista army back in the 80's - just a week before a bill to approve $1 million dollars for contra aid was to be voted on. I can tell you first hand that the "raid" never happened. And it came out later (in the local Honduran paper) that the Sandinistas army did cross the border and raided a camp 8 km from the border WITH PERMISSION OF THE HONDURAN GOVERNMENT!! Of course - that bit of information never came out in the US papers.

benbradley
11-01-2007, 07:40 PM
You wouldn't believe the response our school and district has mounted!! We've written letters to the editor, we've written to the researchers demanding a public apology, we've contacted the TV stations. I do feel that we, as a school, and our district office are doing everything we can. It just seems too bizarre that this was allowed to go through.
It seems there's one more thing that could be done. I presume the school system has attorneys...filing a suit against the paper for running a story they knew was false and that they were notified beforehand was false, THAT would get some attention. No doubt the school's legal eagles are smarter than me when it comes to what legal actions can reasonably be done, but it's a thought.

nancy sv
11-01-2007, 09:17 PM
I'm not sure exactly what the district is doing, but I do know they are attacking this story with everything they have. The thing is that the superintendent actually talked with the reserachers and they agreed that the data is inaccurate in this case. I have no doubt their data was false for a lot of other schools too.

Tish Davidson
11-01-2007, 10:26 PM
If the "study" was published in a professional journal, your district should write the journal a letter of rebuttal stating the facts you have given. It is important that the professional peers of the people who did this study know that the research is seriously flawed, so that they don't use it.

nancy sv
11-01-2007, 10:31 PM
good point Tish - I hadn't thought of that. All I know is that the article appeared in newspapers around the country.

here's the original article: http://www.idahostatesman.com/aptopstories/story/196286.html

this is what the paper reported today: http://www.idahostatesman.com/localnews/story/197733.html

edited to add that there are three schools in Idaho labeled as "drop-out factories" - one of htem is a medical charter school, which consistently ranks as having the highest ISAT scores and SAT scores in the state!! The only reason kids leave that school is to go back to the "regular" high school because they can't handle the demands.

Tiger
11-01-2007, 10:58 PM
Hawai`i schools got the same headlines--with the similar wording. What you allege jibes with the Aloha State as well.

"7 Oahu schools ‘dropout factories’

Study finds state is 11th in dropout schools, at least 40 percent of freshmen will fail before their senior year"

-Honolulu Star-Bulletin, 10/30/2007

This makes for a great headlines, but lousy reporting.

Have you ever worked with that person who always has to be first in letting everyone know the latest? You know, the guy whose 411s more or less leave his mouth as 141s? That's what this reminds me of.

Sure, they offered 'dropout factories' as a quote, but I think they could have at least read the study carefully before using the word, "fail." Apparently, 40% don't "fail." They just don't graduate from the schools they entered as freshmen. Do a large number of them drop out? Yes: but almost half do not.

But, hey: it's almost as much fun to beat up on the DOE as it is the President. Almost.

Tiger
11-01-2007, 11:06 PM
If the "study" was published in a professional journal, your district should write the journal a letter of rebuttal stating the facts you have given. It is important that the professional peers of the people who did this study know that the research is seriously flawed, so that they don't use it.

An example of the kind of follow up done by a really on it school district:

http://www.cjonline.com/stories/110107/loc_213976179.shtml

"The majority of the no-shows weren't dropouts. Most ended up getting their high school education elsewhere or in some other way.

Of the 487 "new" freshmen in 2002 (excluding repeat freshmen), 145 transferred to other schools in the district, in the county or out of state.

Another 41 were still in school, having failed to meet all the graduation requirements in four years and planning to return the following year to finish.

Only 39 of the original 487 were true "dropouts," as the school district interprets the word. That is only 8 percent.

The AP study considered a school to be a "dropout factory" if more than 40 percent of a freshman class didn't graduate from the school they attended for four years."

nancy sv
11-01-2007, 11:21 PM
I think a whole lot of districts are trying to fight this one. I just did a google search and came up with quite a few places where the numbers are really "off". It just seems like a place like John's Hopkins would have verified numbers before sending this load of BS out! I wonder what the true numbers of "drop-out factories" are. Out of the 1000+ schools this 'study' claimed were drop-out factories, I wonder how many truly are.

The other thing that blows me away in this one is that the state of Idaho REQUIRES schools to keep up with EVERY child and report EXACTLY where he/she is. We have very exact numbers on how many kids transferred, and where they transferred to, how many are being homeschooled, how many dropped out, etc... If they had just contacted the state department they could have gotten the accurate information. But they didn't want that, obviously.

Tiger
11-01-2007, 11:27 PM
Ah yes. Let's all give them a round of applause for something so easily googled as "dropout factories." Then, let's do our best to give them the attention this bald faced sensationalism so richly deserves.

I see another headline: "Parents: the AP spins your kids to look like losers"

Shadow_Ferret
11-02-2007, 12:00 AM
Yeah, our school system is trying to spin it so it doesn't sound so bad either, but everyone has known for decades our school system needs help and is a dropout factory.

Now we have the proof.

And they have the nerve to ask for a 16% tax increase!

nancy sv
11-02-2007, 12:18 AM
I do understand that there are some schools that truly are drop-out factories. But the school I teach at is not one of them! We consistently run at about a 16 - 22% drop-out rate which is well above the norm. It seems to me that the fact that the school district built a new high school to alleviate overcrowdedness should NOT be to our detriment!!

Tish Davidson
11-02-2007, 12:34 AM
After a little Googling, I came up with what I think a link to the original study on which this story was based

http://www.csos.jhu.edu/crespar/techReports/Report70.pdf

These are the authors


Robert Balfanz
rbalfanz@csos.jhu.edu (rbalfanz@csos.jhu.edu?subject=)

Nettie Legters
nlegters@csos.jhu.edu
(nlegters@csos.jhu.edu?subject=)
Center for Social Organization of Schools
Johns Hopkins University
3003 N. Charles Street
Suite 200
Baltimore, MD 21218
410-516-8800


What is most interesting to me is that the Johns Hopkins media relations folks were pushing this story (along with several others) here
http://www.jhu.edu/news_info/news/home04/aug04/backschl.html

It would be interesting to know if the popular press stories actually reflected what the authors said or if the information got distorted when it got passed through the Johns Hopkins pr people.

Summonere
11-02-2007, 12:41 AM
Talk about irresponsible reporting! I can’t figure out how this one got through the channels – anyone care to take a guess?

From a Dilbert cartoon:

DOGBERT: I need three bitter and unsuccessful scientists and a hundred lazy journalists.


Please help me understand how something so erroneous and damaging could possibly be printed in newspapers around the nation.
If reporters spent all their time checking facts, they'd never get any work done.

(Just ask Dan Rather.):)

nancy sv
11-02-2007, 04:39 AM
Thanks Tish!! I'll send off a nasty email letting them know what I think of their methodology.

And summon - I think you're right - get a couple of nasty and lazy people and this is what happens!

benbradley
11-02-2007, 06:41 AM
From a Dilbert cartoon:

DOGBERT: I need three bitter and unsuccessful scientists and a hundred lazy journalists.
Wow, inflation. It only took two scientists (and a hundred lazy journalists) back when Ponds and Fleishman announced cold fusion.

nancy sv
11-03-2007, 03:56 AM
THEY TOOK US OFF THE LIST!!!

http://www.idahostatesman.com/newsupdates/story/200138.html

Tish Davidson
11-03-2007, 04:28 AM
THEY TOOK US OFF THE LIST!!!

http://www.idahostatesman.com/newsupdates/story/200138.html

Congratulations. Just goes to show how statistics can lie.

zahra
11-03-2007, 04:32 AM
THEY TOOK US OFF THE LIST!!!

http://www.idahostatesman.com/newsupdates/story/200138.html

You see what happens when you stand up for yourself?

:hooray:

Fantastic.

benbradley
11-03-2007, 05:13 AM
Congratulations. Just goes to show how statistics can lie.
It goes to show how liars can abuse statistics. Recommended reading: "How to Lie with Statistics," Darrell Huff.

benbradley
11-03-2007, 05:23 AM
THEY TOOK US OFF THE LIST!!!

http://www.idahostatesman.com/newsupdates/story/200138.html


Taking Meridian High off the list was “the right thing to do,” said District Superintendent Linda Clark. “The study was flawed.”
Johns Hopkins also is looking at a small handful of other schools in similar situations.
Perhaps Johns Hopkins could look at the whole list, with a re-evaluation of the method used to determine dropouts. Actually that would involve scrapping the list and starting over. If I had to rely in any way on studies like this, I'd put these researchers on my personal "do not trust" list, and perhaps even John Hopkins itself on a "do not trust" list.

Nancy, congrats on everyone there making enough noise to get YOUR school off the list, but one can only wonder how many other schools are on that list undeservedly. The only way to know for sure would be to do a proper study. Geez, this is such a crock.

nancy sv
11-03-2007, 05:28 AM
Nancy, congrats on everyone there making enough noise to get YOUR school off the list, but one can only wonder how many other schools are on that list undeservedly. The only way to know for sure would be to do a proper study. Geez, this is such a crock.

Exactly. I wonder the same thing. I know for a fact that two out of the three schools listed in Idaho should not have been on the list. If the same ratio holds true for other states - that list is scary indeed!!

WittyandorIronic
11-03-2007, 05:06 PM
Heya Nancy, as a proud graduate of an Idaho high school, Thanks!! :) A little off topic, but oh well.
From your posts, it sounds like you might be in Eagle or Meridian. I graduated from Timberline High School in 2000, and have to say that after a few years out in the world (literally and figuratively, I was in the military for a bit) I have to say that I had a much more in depth education than many others. And a lot more choices. I took great electives (Latin and Japanese) and was surrounded by supportive staff.
Anyways, thanks for all your hard work! My little sister is currently in high school there, so keep up the good work, ;)
And we had very few drop outs... even those that struggled were worked with until they could pass, even if it was in summer school.

nancy sv
11-03-2007, 06:55 PM
Thanks Witty!! I am at Meridian High School - one of the three Idaho schools that were on the list.

Shadow_Ferret
11-03-2007, 09:40 PM
It always amuses me how the teachers and administrators of the schools never see the failure of their schools but the parents and community can see it plain as day.

Our school board just voted itself a 9% increase for next year (they wanted 16%). Throwing good money after bad. How about trying to actually use the money you already have to teach the students instead of to make stupid PR campaigns about how great the schools are?

Tiger
11-05-2007, 10:38 PM
It always amuses me how the teachers and administrators of the schools never see the failure of their schools but the parents and community can see it plain as day.

Did you happen to read the OP?

This thread began with critricism of the AP's sloppy reporting, based upon a sloppy reading of a study that they commissioned from John's Hopkins.

The AP wanted their study to show that American schools are "dropout factories"--so do you, apparently.

Shadow_Ferret
11-05-2007, 10:45 PM
Yes, I do. I can't speak for her public school system, but my own, which I'm pretty sure is also the deal with the majority of urban public school systems.

Tiger
11-05-2007, 10:55 PM
So... What do you think of the reporting that was done?

Shadow_Ferret
11-06-2007, 08:06 PM
In our case? Accurate and the school system, like all school systems, went into defensive mode making the same claims as the OP that the numbers weren't an accurate reflection of the reality.

I can't speak for the OP's school system, only our own. In our case we've known for years they are drop-out factories. And I guess considering that, I'm more inclined to believe the news than the schools' excuses and spin.

nancy sv
11-06-2007, 09:37 PM
while I do realize some schools are "dropout factories", I will say that the one I teach at is not. If one were to look at our data for the past 50 years, they would see that we typically run around 16 - 20% dropouts, which is well above the norm for the nation. There have been a few times in those 50 years where we have dropped down - and every one of them is when a new high school has opened. This town used to only have one high school when I graduated in 1978. Now we have 4 (plus three alternative high schools).

That being said, I've taught in lots of different schools and I have to say that each and every time I've seen someone drop out of school, that person has had no support at home. We, as teachers, can only do so much. If parents tell their kids they need to stay in school, they will. If parents let them drop out, they will. I don't think the schools themselves have anything to do with the school being a dropout factory. I feel it all stems from the home.

Shadow_Ferret
11-06-2007, 09:42 PM
I feel it all stems from the home.(emphasis mine)
I think the problem is just that. The schools think the problem is in the home. Of course, the homes think the problem is with the schools.

The problem is that everyone is to blame but no one is willing to accept the blame.

Tish Davidson
11-06-2007, 10:25 PM
I come from a family of teachers, and your comment that you believe that dropping out is all the family's fault is a great example of why parents so often feel that they get no support from the school for solving problems with their students. Support and expectations at home are important, but the school has to do its job too. There was a story last week in my local paper about a kid whose parents got his interim grade report showing that he was failing 3 subjects, had no grade in 3 more, and that his conduct was satisfactory in one subject. Problem is that the kid wasn't even enrolled in that school. His parents had moved him to private school (where he was an A student) but "the computer" had never dropped his name from the roles and he had been automatically assigned a schedule.

Here is the kicker where the responsibility of the school comes in. It is that school's policy to generate a telephone call to the parents every time a kid cuts a single period. This kid had been "absent" (i.e. attending his private school) for 24 straight days and never once had the parents been called. Did the teachers not even notice that he wasn't in class? Was the vice principal in charge of attendance too lazy to look into reported absences? Clearly the school did not care enough about this student to get in touch with his parents and find out what the problem was. So yes, parents are important in keeping their kids in school, but the school has to let them know that there is a problem and work with them to get it solved. Saying it is ALL the parent's fault is just an excuse for teachers and the school system to be lazy and pass the blame.

And this happened in a "good" suburban school, not an overcrowed, underfunded, understaffed problem school.

Tiger
11-06-2007, 11:49 PM
Wait a minute.

I am not a teacher, a school administrator, or even a parent so I've got no personal stake in this. I have, however worked with teachers and administrators for the past few years--and plenty of parents--in a number of districts in the State of Hawai`i. I've personally seen what goes on in classrooms and in curriculum development.

My question to the folks blaming the system is, how much do you want the government involved in the raising of your children?

The State's responsibility is to make education available to all. This is what they're doing. Education of a lot of children is a big job for the State, and it's a right for students and parents to have it provided. It is not a right of anybody to have a quality education tailored to his specific needs. Given the size of student bodies this is neither practical, nor particularly fair.

Repeat: it's the State's job to provide education to the masses.

I'm sorry, but blaming the system for parents and children not taking advantage of a public education is a little like blaming a free restaurant because you only ordered water when you stopped there.

Teachers, an underpaid, under appreciated class of professionals if ever there was one, risk lawsuits from parents for taking too active a role in their childrens' upbringings. Sure, you wouldn't sue a teacher for disciplining your kid, how many times have you known of a parent who stormed into a principal's office threatening just that?

If you want schools to help raise your kids, maybe you should lobby for legal protections for them, from your neighbors.

Tiger
11-06-2007, 11:53 PM
In our case? Accurate and the school system, like all school systems, went into defensive mode making the same claims as the OP that the numbers weren't an accurate reflection of the reality.

I can't speak for the OP's school system, only our own. In our case we've known for years they are drop-out factories. And I guess considering that, I'm more inclined to believe the news than the schools' excuses and spin.

It's accurate to label kids as 'dropouts' if they graduated from different schools than they entered as freshmen?

Sorry, but erring on the side of drama for something this important is a no no.

Shadow_Ferret
11-07-2007, 12:18 AM
My question to the folks blaming the system is, how much do you want the government involved in the raising of your children?

The State's responsibility is to make education available to all. This is what they're doing. Education of a lot of children is a big job for the State, and it's a right for students and parents to have it provided. It is not a right of anybody to have a quality education tailored to his specific needs. Given the size of student bodies this is neither practical, nor particularly fair.

Repeat: it's the State's job to provide education to the masses.

.It's does no good NOT to blame the system either. There's enough blame to go all around. The biggest problem I have is when you blame the schools they get all defensive and take on this seige mentality that does no one any good. How about meeting the parents part way?

And what is the point of providing an education if they provide CRAPPY education? I think since I am PAYING for it and PAYING a HELUVA lot for it, that I should be expected to get a decent education out of it.

Or are they like DMV workers? Lazy and just doing the minumum amount of work to get by, not giving a tinker's cuss for the children?

If the school systems can't educate the children then maybe they should find another line of work and we can put those BILLIONS of tax dollars to better use. Why should we keep throwing more money at the problem?

Last I checked it was something like $8k a student to educate them. You're telling me they can't educate the kids with $8k a year? It costs me nearly 1/8 of that to send my kids to a private school where they ARE getting educated.

There's fat somewhere there that needs to be trimmed.

It's accurate to label kids as 'dropouts' if they graduated from different schools than they entered as freshmen?

Sorry, but erring on the side of drama for something this important is a no no.
But they aren't graduating. I think that was my point.

Tiger
11-07-2007, 01:16 AM
It's does no good NOT to blame the system either. There's enough blame to go all around. The biggest problem I have is when you blame the schools they get all defensive and take on this seige mentality that does no one any good. How about meeting the parents part way?


They are under siege. All the time. Everybody blames the DOE. It's just like saying, 'it's Bush's fault' or, 'it was the CIA.' It's become something that people just do.



And what is the point of providing an education if they provide CRAPPY education? I think since I am PAYING for it and PAYING a HELUVA lot for it, that I should be expected to get a decent education out of it.


I don't know if you went to public school, but if you did was your education better than what's available now? I'm not saying the responsibility is all on you, but the schools do have to contend with much, and a lot of that has to do with parents who:

Don't want to be responsible for their kids, or
Don't want schools teaching 'wrong' information

Or are they like DMV workers? Lazy and just doing the minumum amount of work to get by, not giving a tinker's cuss for the children?


I hope nobody reading this works for the DMV...



If the school systems can't educate the children then maybe they should find another line of work and we can put those BILLIONS of tax dollars to better use. Why should we keep throwing more money at the problem?

Last I checked it was something like $8k a student to educate them. You're telling me they can't educate the kids with $8k a year? It costs me nearly 1/8 of that to send my kids to a private school where they ARE getting educated.

There's fat somewhere there that needs to be trimmed.


Sure, there's fat to be trimmed. But, have you taken a look at where a lot of that fiscal caloric intake came from in the first place?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,59330,00.html

"Some parents have slapped lawsuits on teachers, saying their kids deserved better marks and should be allowed to graduate from high school despite their grades."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,292619,00.html

"A Texas family is suing Gov. Rick Perry (http://javascript<b></b>:siteSearch('Rick Perry');) and a school district over a state-mandated moment of silence in schools, according to The Dallas Morning News."

http://www.jaredstory.com/bull27.html

"CHICAGO -- A mother has sued a Chicago-area school district, alleging that, by not preventing a bully from beating her son, the school showed "reckless disregard" for his safety."

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/14/nyregion/14phones.html

"School Cellphone Ban Violates Rights of Parents, Lawsuit Says "

You can't get every parent to agree that about what's right in American schools. The unhappy parents are going to sue. I think that's a pretty good example of 'fat.'



But they aren't graduating. I think that was my point.


Well, a great number of 'dropouts' did/do in fact graduate. The numbers from the study were probably just fine... It was the ass-backwards way those figures reached the public that gave me and others a pain. Reporting like that is irresponsible.

Really, I sympathize with you--and I agree, it's everyone's problem. I don't envy your job. If you get your kids educated, despite the challenges, you've got my admiration.

nancy sv
11-07-2007, 02:59 AM
I probably shouldn't even respond to this thread anymore, but here goes...

I should be at a meeting RIGHT NOW at this very moment. But I'm not because the mother didn't show up. I called her house SIX times and couldn't get hold of her. I finally left a message with her son (the one that was supposed to be at school, but Mom kept him home because he didn't want to come to school) about today's meeting. Our principal called THREE times before he finally got hold of her and let her know we were meeting today. Then I had to send out emails to each and every teacher this kid (supposedly) has. I say supposedly because he hasn't even been in some of them at all since he came to our school 5 weeks ago. I also had to write up a new IEP to reflect the partial schedule we were proposing for him. When the mother didn't show, I had to scrap all that, and will have to start all over again. This particular kid has now been at our school for 5 weeks, and I alone have probably put in well over two hours scheduling meetings that the mom didn't show up for and doing the paperwork. Now I am back to square one because she chose not to come in to try to get this worked out. In addition to all the time I am putting in, our principal has put in countless hours trying to contact mom to get her to come to meetings and to fill out the paperwork involved with the kid being truant. And the nurse is involved because every single day the kid does show up he "has" to go home early because of this, that, or the other. The mom allows it. But the nurse has to do all the paperwork to properly document what is happening.

Yes - this a rant. I'm frustrated. I've got a ton of paperwork to do for all the REST of my kids that I need to do, and yet I can't even begin on that because of all the "problem" kids. And on top of all that, I am expected to teach all day. I stay at school until 4 or 5 nearly every day to get all this done, and frequently come in on weekends. For every parent meeting I hold (which is a lot) I generally make 5 phone calls at a minimum. It isn't unusual for me to spend over an hour on the phone with ONE parent (if I can even get hold of him/her).

Now - we are doing all this for ONE kid!!!! ONE KID!!! And I have 26 kids on my case load. Many of our Special Ed teachers have over 30 kids on their case loads. We do everything we possibly can to help these kids and make them successful in school. But if they don't do their part, there ain't a whole heck of a lot we can do. We're trying. We really are. But until we get some support from the community, there ain't much we can do.

OK - rant over. Blast away...

Tiger
11-07-2007, 04:29 AM
Who's blasting? You're a hero in my book.

nancy sv
11-07-2007, 06:23 AM
Thanks Tiger!!

Ali B
11-07-2007, 09:18 AM
I've found that Idaho schools are really good. My daughter went to a Meridian school before we moved to Texas and my brother-in-law and sister-in-law both went to Meridian schools before they moved to Eagle and Star.
I'm so glad everyone yelled enough to get Meridian off of the list. Meridian, ID is still close to my heart. :)

nancy sv
11-07-2007, 07:36 PM
Thanks Alina! I agree that they are pretty good. I'm glad the researchers realized they had screwed up and took off the list!