Women And Children First!

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three seven

(Graeme Cameron)
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Two scenarios for ya:

1) A car containing three men turns over in a water-filled ditch. They all drown.

2) A car containing a young woman and her two small children turns over in a water-filled ditch. They all drown.

Is one of these more tragic than the other? If so, why?
 

ritinrider

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No, they're both tragic. But.... the media will pick up on the second scenerio faster because children are involved and their young innocent lives were cut short by the tragedy.

Hope these were just hypotho...hypo...uh, make-believe scenerios.

Nita
 

AprilBoo

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Is this going to end up being one of those jokes where the answer is something to do with the first one being impossible becuase men can drive so the second one must be more tragic? Like that old joke about Santa Claus getting in a wreck?
 

rich

If the men were key members of a group on their way to a meeting that would be influential in obtaining world peace, and the young woman was on her way to Las Vegas with the family savings, and her two kids in the back were bent twigs slated to grow up to be bent trees, It's a no brainer.

Your job, three seven, (btw, my favorite numbers) is to provide an answer without adding to the facts you posted.
 

BradyH1861

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IF this is a serious question, I would prefer to deal with three adult male fatalities than a female and two children. I'm not cold hearted or anything, but child fatalities are always much harder to deal with.

IF this is the beginning of a joke...hurry up with the punchline. I am "dying" here!

ha ha

Brady H.
 

BradyH1861

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In that case, I will be more than happy to pontificate at length. I like the word pontificate...anyway, give me about an hour and I will be back with my take on the issue.


Brady H.
 

Poppy

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In my opinion, no loss is greater than another...a loss is a loss.

One of my children died in my womb. She never had a chance to live.
I recently lost my grandmother who lead a full life, filled with joy and accomplishments.

Different people who died in different ways, but neither one's death is more tragic to me than the other. It hurts just the same.

So to answer your question, all those losses are equally tragic, especially to the loved ones that were left behind.

Just my opinion though.
 

BradyH1861

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My 2 cents

The subject of death has been in my mind the last couple of days. One of our neighboring departments lost a firefighter over the weekend. It is at times like this that I get a little reflective. Normally I keep serious subjects at arms length. If I may briefly editorialize...it really gets on my nerves how the public only likes us when we die. It would be nice to get that kind of support when we are asking for a raise so that we can support our families. Our probationary firefighters make barely above the poverty line. After eight years, I still make in the low 30s. So we basically risk our lives or peanuts. Anyway, that wasn't the question and I apologize for my rant.

I have seen more than my share of death. Everything from people who have died relatively peacefully, to those who have had their lives ended by violent means. (shootings, stabbings, car wrecks, etc) Now if you go on the premise that all human life is equal, then it really should not make a difference who the person was or how young/old the person was when they died. But I really don't think that is the case. For example, Princess Di is killed in a car wreck. That same night, I worked a fatality car accident. Who got the press coverage? Princess Di, of course. Now I'm not saying that is right or wrong, but that is how the world is.

When it comes to children, I think what makes their death's especially tragic is that in many cases, they had no control over the circumstances that got them there in the first place. They truly are the innocent victims of circumstance. And their lives are cut short without ever having the chance to really live...that too is a factor. Granted I did not really see children's deaths as any more tragic than the next person's until I had my own child. That changes your perspective a little I think.

Very few adult deaths I have witnessed continue to haunt me. But most of the children do to one extent or another. There have been times when I have come home and sat on the couch and sobbed. I'm not too proud or macho to admit that. I have never done that when an adult was the deceased, except for when it was a firefighter who also happened to be a close friend. Anyway, death is death. And in a perfect world, one person would not matter more than any other. But in reality, I think we pick and choose which deaths matter and which don't. Again, I am not saying that is right or wrong. But that is how it is.

Sorry to ramble and interject personal comments, it has been a tough couple of days.

Brady H.
 

maestrowork

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In theory, the two cases are the same tragic. Three people lose their lives in either case. Their families destroyed.

However, in reality, in our society (at least western), we do seem to place more value or sympathy on children, and to some extent, women who suffered. To lose a husband or a wife is bad, but to lose a child -- as the cliche goes, losing a child is the worst pain one has to go through... is there any truth in that statement? Or does our culture dictate that sentiment or value?

Take the Peterson case for instance. Here, you have a man murdering his wife and child. It's sensational. It's tragic. It's horrific. Now, flip it around: Aileen Wuornos, who murdered many men before she was caught. OK, it's not fair to compare the two cases like that, but still, we kind of sense the difference in how our society look at things.

It gets more complicated when you think about the people who are left behind. In the first case, perhaps 3 wives are left widowed and many children orphaned. In the second case, perhaps only 1 family is affected. So it gets complicated when you add these elements to the situation. It's not easy to say, one is more tragic than the other.
 

Poppy

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Maybe it's because I'm still 'in mourning' for my grandparents, but I'm getting all emotional and weepy just reading this thread. I'm so sensitive right now and everything seems so tragic. If a fly died, I think I'd cry about it.

Okay, that's not adding anything to the discussion, but I did want to say that this has been an interesting thread. I could say so much on the subject of death and how it has personally affected me, but I better not. Like I said, I'm probably a bit too emotional and sensitive right now.

Anybody got a tissue?
 

three seven

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Consider that your children are your children, whether they're 5 or 50. Losing a child at any age is horrific, and I dread the thought of losing mine - but at the same time I dread the thought of them losing me or their mother.

Where young children are concerned, there's obviously the standard 'unfulfilled potential, whole life ahead of them' argument. But you can't miss what you never had, right? No, there has to be more to it than that.

Family tragedy aside, how often have you heard a report of a stray bomb in any given warzone killing innocent women and children? This is an interesting phrase, isn't it? We presume that in this case the innocent are those unconcerned with the matter of war, as opposed to those simply without sin (either way, we'd expect children to be innocent, so why mention it?) Is every man in the country presumed to be an enemy soldier, or does the killing of innocent men just not tug at the heartstrings?

Brady & Poppy: ramble all you like. We've lost two family members this month (one highly unexpectedly) so I'm with you. :cry:
 

Poppy

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This just brings up a couple of issues for me, not necessarily directly related to your original question...so apologies if I'm getting too off-topic.

My child that died was stillborn. Some people do not recognize miscarriages and stillbirths as a death or loss, and while people are certainly allowed to feel how they feel, I do not think people should push that belief on others. I was in labor (painful in itself) for 12 hours, knowing the whole time that my baby would be born dead. I can't say it's the worst thing anyone will ever go through, but I can say it's one of the worst things I've gone through. And even though I gave birth, I wasn't given a birth certificate...or even a death certificate, but the hospital did file a 'fetal demise' report. Wow, that makes a mother feel good (NOT!). People would say to me, "At least you didn't know it." Good as their intentions were, it's the not knowing that hurts so much. Not a day goes by that I don't ask myself, "I wonder what she'd be doing now if she had lived?"

And with my grandmother, I became her primary caregiver. I took care of her much like a mother takes care of an infant. I basically watched her die slowly. I saw her give up (after my grandfather died, she said she didn't want to live anymore and that they were supposed to go together). Every day I spent with her was another day she got closer to death. She had had cancer for a long time so it wasn't a shock to me that she was going to die. Still...it was (and continues to be) difficult...in ways I can't begin to express yet because the emotions are still fresh and raw.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't like 'society' trying to dictate how I should feel, how one of these losses 'shouldn't count because it was just a fetus' and the others aren't that tragic because I knew they were going to happen and I was supposedly prepared for it. (But oh well, I don't have to listen to society, do I?) :)

Why weigh and measure our pain against each other when we should share sympathy and support? Every loss makes someone "less" (motherless, childless, spouseless, friendless, etc.) and as REM sings..."Everybody hurts..."

I know I said I don't like people discounting my losses so I hope sharing my feelings here hasn't made any of you feel like your losses don't matter. While there may be different circumstances surrounding each loss and individuals deal with each loss in their own way, pain is pain and losing a loved one hurts.

BTW, I have a couple of pages on my website with writings dedicated to my daughter and grandparents if anyone's interested. Technically speaking, the writing probably isn't so great, but my feelings are there for all to see. I believe the URL to my site is on my profile. Go there, then to "Writings" then look under "Memorials."
 
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BradyH1861

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poppyhullings said:
(But oh well, I don't have to listen to society, do I?)

That's right, you dont. You do not have to listen to society any more than I have to listen to the devil people.....I mean, my in laws. I thumb my nose at society and I also thumb my nose at them! :D

Brady H.
 

reph

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poppyhullings said:
Some people do not recognize miscarriages and stillbirths as a death or loss, and while people are certainly allowed to feel how they feel, I do not think people should push that belief on others.

Certainly not. You're allowed to feel how you feel, too. It's a genuine loss. My mother had a stillbirth long before she had me. Her suppressed grief had horrible consequences.
 

Betty W01

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Poppy, I lost my 21 yo daughter in a one car freak accident, and I miss her every single day (even now, and it was in 1993), but I have 21 yrs of memories and love left to remember her by. So, in some ways, your loss seems much sadder. To know that you'll never get to look into your child's eyes and say hello, to have only memories of a few brief months of holding your daughter in your womb, but never getting to hold her in your arms, to know that a good portion of the world considers that sort of loss "less"... I'm so sorry. :Hug2:

Three seven and Brady, I'm sorry for your losses, too.

<hands everyone tissues - clean ones>

And I'm with Poppy - I'm extra-sensitive lately, too, for various reasons.
 

Poppy

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Laugh, and the world laughs with you.
Cry, and we're going to need more tissues.
 

Poppy

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BradyH1861 said:
There have been times when I have come home and sat on the couch and sobbed. I'm not too proud or macho to admit that.

I just wanted to thank you for sharing that, Brady.
 

maestrowork

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I find myself strangely calm in time of deaths. I don't know why. I'm a sensitive guy with big emotions, but I'm extremely calm when dealing with deaths. I remember when a friend of mine committed suicide a few years ago, or when another friend died of colon cancer, or when my cat died a couple months ago, or when another friend almost died of a heart attack... my calmness even surprised my closest circle. It's not to say I didn't feel anything or wasn't devastated, but I was the one who was able to handle everything, organize, get everything together, without dissolving into a basket case.

I wonder what my shrink's going to say about that.
 

Spookster

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Maestro, I'm the same way. (Which is ironic, as I've been deemed the "emotional" one in the family.) When my dad died, I handled everything, starting from the police notification. I didn't breakdown until the day of the funeral.

Poppy, as a mother of two, I cannot begin to imagine the grief you must feel. There is nothing more bonding than carrying a child in your womb. *hugs* *shares box of unused tissues*

Brady, I find your job one of the most honorable choices anyone could make. Unfortunately, when you choose a social service career, you have to be at your best when others are in life or death situations. It is an awesome responsibility to bare and I hold you in high reguard.

As to the original question... Any death is tragic. I personally mourn more for those left behind than for the victim. When I hear of a father killed by a stray bullet, leaving behind a wife and three children, all I can think is "those poor children will never know their father." My sister's husband died in a car accident a few years back and it tore her to peices. My nephew was only 18 mos. He doesn't really remember his dad and that breaks my heart. He only has photos and stories to bond with, instead of touch and experiences with his father.
 
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