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WillowArcane
10-26-2007, 07:27 AM
I just came across this on a random LJ board, and wondered what you all thought of it.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p73/WIllow_Arcane/potter-wars.jpg

WittyandorIronic
10-26-2007, 07:31 AM
HAHA. that is pretty funny. But really, most books can be diluted to common enough terms to be interchangeable. It's entertaining they found so many ways to make parallels though.

Zelenka
10-26-2007, 07:51 AM
There was a sketch in the series Dead Ringers where Harry, Obi Wan Kenobi and Frodo or someone got confused as to who was who as well.

Azraelsbane
10-26-2007, 08:00 AM
You don't want to see the Harro, Hermwise, and Ronnum short story I wrote to go along with the seemingly endless parts in Book 7 where the 3 are carrying the heavy weight of the horcrux around their necks on a chain and sniping at one another as they journey to the cracks of Doom. ;)

maxmordon
10-26-2007, 08:00 AM
Really funny! I never have thought of that...

Zelenka
10-26-2007, 08:07 AM
You don't want to see the Harro, Hermwise, and Ronnum short story I wrote to go along with the seemingly endless parts in Book 7 where the 3 are carrying the heavy weight of the horcrux around their necks on a chain and sniping at one another as they journey to the cracks of Doom. ;)

Yeah, I kind of put the book down with a groan at that point.

Azraelsbane
10-26-2007, 08:28 AM
Yeah, I kind of put the book down with a groan at that point.

You took it better than I did. I flung it across my hotel room and it knocked over the little box atop the tv. After I quit cursing and screaming about Tolkien rolling over in his grave, my roommate calmly asked me what was wrong. ;)

For me it was so close to plagiarism I did not find it funny. At all. I mean I guess after making tons of money and being assured a record number of sales you can stick in a search for a white whale named Koby and your publisher wouldn't blink, but I expected more.

Zelenka
10-26-2007, 08:51 AM
For me it was so close to plagiarism I did not find it funny. At all. I mean I guess after making tons of money and being assured a record number of sales you can stick in a search for a white whale named Koby and your publisher wouldn't blink, but I expected more.

It came very close IMO. I mean, there have always been similarities to things from Tolkien in the books (giant spiders living in the dark, spooky woods for one...) but at one point I'm sure one of the goblins from Gringotts even quoted Gollum.

OddButInteresting
10-26-2007, 01:54 PM
For me it was so close to plagiarism I did not find it funny.

Oh, c'mon! It wasn't that bad. It wasn't as if the locket was the crux (no pun intended) of the story. In fact, I believe it was only in the trio's possession for 200 or so pages. I agree that it could've done without the traits of the One Ring, but it didn't bother me in the slightest.

I haven't actually read The Lord of The Rings myself. I read The Hobbit when I was 11, but high fantasy really doesn't appeal to me. I prefer urban or science fiction fantasy. It tends to be a lot more thought-provoking.

Nice find, by the way, Willow :).

Azraelsbane
10-26-2007, 03:28 PM
Oh, c'mon! It wasn't that bad. It wasn't as if the locket was the crux (no pun intended) of the story. In fact, I believe it was only in the trio's possession for 200 or so pages.

True, but I think one of my main problems with it was that while not the crux of the story, it was one of the only horcruxes they actually had to do something to get/destroy. Most of them were 1) already destroyed or 2) just kind of fell into their laps. One of the only ones that actually took an adventure on their part ended up a total bust + copy/paste adventure sequence. I also think by that point I was a little tired of Harry being an idiot. I usually despise one MC for one reason or another, but I really hate selfless saviors of mankind who also happen to be just that side of slow.

I mean, of course it makes sense that after weeks of carefully planning how to sneak into the ministry Harry would steal the centerpiece of Umbridge's door. Because no one would notice the huge eye (which had a warning sign under it if I remember right) was missing, especially not the 20 some odd people right outside the door. Or maybe there was some spell on it that might warn the owner should it be removed, but nah, that wouldn't make sense in the Ministry of Magic. *roll eyes* I realize something had to go wrong there to add drama, but I would have appreciated it if it hadn't been attributed to yet another "duh, Harry" moment. Kinda like the "Let's say Voldemort (again). You know, the word that's been taboo the entire novel, because all the bad guy's you've been hiding from for hundreds of pages will know your exact location" moment.

Now, contrary to what you're probably thinking, I didn't hate the book. I just think it would have been better had about 3-400 pages been cut. ;)

maddythemad
10-26-2007, 04:37 PM
Yeah, but I could make anything fit into a synopsis that vague. I mean, practically every story ever written involves a hero who beats the villain, and while I don't know Star Wars very well, I know that Harry Potter involves a lot more than what is in that synopsis, and some things-- like the stuff about Quidditch-- is really a stretch. And remote wilderness of suburbia? ... Also, the thing about James (Harry's dad) being a good Quidditch player is so unimportant that it's not really fair to mention it next to Luke's father being a good jedi or whatever. Not to mention Luke's dad is EVIL.

But then again, I'm a die-hard Potter fan, so take this with several heaping handfuls of salt. :)

KVL
10-26-2007, 05:00 PM
I enjoyed the HP books, but not enough to reread them. I find the Star Wars parallel humorous, although nowhere near plagiarism... there's books out there that come far, far closer to actual plagiarism.

And, in general, unless the author is copying nearly word-for-word, there will always be a fan ready to argue semantics: "But John's cloak was red and Sam's was blue!" Then you get the really sad, cut-and-dried cases, like the author who apparently copied the prologue of David Gemmell's Dark Prince, trying to pass it off as her own. [source (http://dearauthor.com/wordpress/2007/10/11/top-10-tips-for-plagairists/)]

Doodlebug
10-26-2007, 05:05 PM
But then again, I'm a die-hard Potter fan, so take this with several heaping handfuls of salt. :)

Here, here! (Although I admit that it was pretty funny to see the comparison put in that way.)

But as far as HP being overly like LOTR or even Star Wars... what writer isn't influenced by other stories, whether consciously or not? Although the horocrux shares some properties with the ring (it's a burden, etc.), it also has enough of its own characteristics to make it unique.

Now, don't anyone get all offended by this, but I feel that is must be said ... J.K. Rowling inspires a lot of professional jealously and, some writers would love nothing more than to believe that she is a hack. (Not that anyone here would feel that way! :D)

Hillary
10-26-2007, 05:27 PM
WAIT. YOU MEAN HARRY POTTER WAS A HERO-JOURNEY LIKE STAR WARS WAS A HERO-JOURNEY?


.
.
.
.



Score one for Captain Obvious.

The Lady
10-26-2007, 06:40 PM
I . Kinda like the "Let's say Voldemort (again). You know, the word that's been taboo the entire novel, because all the bad guy's you've been hiding from for hundreds of pages will know your exact location" moment.

. ;)

That was so bad I thought she must have put it in as a marker section fully planning to come back to it again and write something halfways believable. But I guess she must of forgot. :)

AceTachyon
10-26-2007, 06:56 PM
So according to this, Voldemort turns out to be Harry's father, Dobby is Jar-Jar, ("Meesa wanna serve Harry!"), Dumbledore is Yoda, and Snape is...Mace Windu?

WittyandorIronic
10-26-2007, 07:04 PM
rofl

PeeDee
10-26-2007, 07:09 PM
So according to this, Voldemort turns out to be Harry's father, Dobby is Jar-Jar, ("Meesa wanna serve Harry!"), Dumbledore is Yoda, and Snape is...Mace Windu?

He's the motherf***ing teacher of the mother****ing dark arts, b*tch!

AceTachyon
10-26-2007, 07:32 PM
He's the motherf***ing teacher of the mother****ing dark arts, b*tch!
And his wand has the inscription: "Bad A$$ Motherf****r."

Silver King
10-26-2007, 07:45 PM
With or without the asterisks, we can tone down the language a bit, yes?

PeeDee
10-26-2007, 07:47 PM
Is this better?

Silver King
10-26-2007, 07:55 PM
Is this better?
Perfect. :)

PeeDee
10-26-2007, 07:58 PM
Can I swear in this size, or will you make me tone it done even more then?

AceTachyon
10-26-2007, 08:01 PM
Cussing must be done in a smaller font. Check.

Voldemort.

Like that?

PattiTheWicked
10-26-2007, 08:07 PM
Yeah, I kind of put the book down with a groan at that point.

While it may seem lifted straight out of LOTR, the idea of a magical object that renders despair and gloom upon its possessor is nothing new. Tolkien got the idea straight out of the Norse eddas -- read the saga of the Volsungs or the Nibulungen epic, and there's your actual source material.

Silver King
10-26-2007, 08:15 PM
Can I swear in this size, or will you make me tone it done even more then?
Oh, I'm a big fan of swearing when it enhances the emotional impact of a statement, in whatever size font the writer chooses. Far be it from me to censor the members who post here; but a gentle reminder to be more selective in our word choice and to consider our audience more carefully never hurts.

PeeDee
10-26-2007, 08:19 PM
While it may seem lifted straight out of LOTR, the idea of a magical object that renders despair and gloom upon its possessor is nothing new. Tolkien got the idea straight out of the Norse eddas -- read the saga of the Volsungs or the Nibulungen epic, and there's your actual source material.

I'm glad you pointed that out. It definitely predates Tolkien. It's worth noting that when people complain about writers "stealing" from Tolkien...almost everything in the Lord of the Rings can be traced back to historical and mythological origins very closely.

And that doesn't mean he was stealing, because that's not how stories work.


Oh, I'm a big fan of swearing when it enhances the emotional impact of a statement, in whatever size font the writer chooses. Far be it from me to censor the members who post here; but a gentle reminder to be more selective in our word choice and to consider our audience more carefully never hurts.

right. I'll remember that.

Christine N.
10-26-2007, 08:21 PM
Nope, Eragon was much closer to Star Wars. Almost like he took SW and LOTR and smooshed them together.

Like, I don't even need to read the second book to know that Bellatorix (was that the mean Emperor's name? Sounds remarkably like Bellatrix) is Eragon's... :D

(I really haven't read the second book yet, but I KNOW that's what's going to happen.)

No, if anyone lifted storyline, it wasn't JKR, but another, much younger writer.

PeeDee
10-26-2007, 08:25 PM
Those kids who go "I DM'd a totally sick D&D game w. a wicked plot what someone should publish as a book and we make money!"

That would be Christopher Paolini... :D

JLCwrites
10-26-2007, 08:34 PM
I believe Star Wars came from a Samurai movie called Hidden Fortress. (Looking it up)

In any case, as stated before, you can narrow down any plot to fit a multitude of books and movies.

kalel32
10-26-2007, 08:49 PM
Star Wars is from Robot Chicken, right?

DonnaDuck
10-26-2007, 09:22 PM
If Voldemort turns out to be Harry's real dad, Lily's got some 'splainin' to do.

PeeDee
10-26-2007, 09:26 PM
If Voldemort turns out to be Harry's real dad, Lily's got some 'splainin' to do.

Now you're bringing I love Lucy into this? We're getting a very messy story here...

AceTachyon
10-26-2007, 09:31 PM
Now you're bringing I love Lucy into this? We're getting a very messy story here...
He's Voldemort but they call him Cuban Pete, king of the Rhumba beat.

Zelenka
10-26-2007, 09:32 PM
While it may seem lifted straight out of LOTR, the idea of a magical object that renders despair and gloom upon its possessor is nothing new. Tolkien got the idea straight out of the Norse eddas -- read the saga of the Volsungs or the Nibulungen epic, and there's your actual source material.

Actually I have read those. My problem wasn't that it was the same idea, just that it was executed in so similar a way.

Like Azraelsbane, I didn't hate the book either. (See avatar). I was just a bit disappointed in it. I just think she could've done better. Sorry if that opinion doesn't sit well with people, but I was really expecting a lot from the finale of a seven book series. Maybe I was expecting too much, I don't know, but that's how I feel on it.

DonnaDuck
10-26-2007, 09:40 PM
Like Azraelsbane, I didn't hate the book either. (See avatar). I was just a bit disappointed in it. I just think she could've done better. Sorry if that opinion doesn't sit well with people, but I was really expecting a lot from the finale of a seven book series. Maybe I was expecting too much, I don't know, but that's how I feel on it.


I feel the same way. Even after the initial read of the final book, I was a little wtf. Now that I'm reading it through again, I really need to stop. I find it lacking compared to the other six. It was messy, not as tight as the others, contained many plotholes (minor on their own but put many pebbles together and you get a rock) and I'm just really disappointed in it.

The thing is, from what I understand, she had the ending set in stone fromt he beginning. From what I've learned in regards to writing is that's a big no-no. You can have an idea for an ending but writing something that long, you can come into twists and turns that could lead you down a different path, soomething that might have been more fitting for the story as a whole. I think she wrote this book for the ending and wasn't going to budge on it. So each incident and event was written in order to get her desired ended and, to me, it let to a rather disappointing book. I think if she had been a little more versatile on the ending, she could have written the body accordingly and could have had a stronger, more solid piece of writing instead of something that was obviously mounting to the end straight from the beginning, if that makes sense. You end up leading yourself and it's not always in the right direction. Having a definitive ending, in my eyes, puts up a road block for the writer saying that they can't move beyond that, it's unwavering and I think it can be a hinderance.

PeeDee
10-26-2007, 09:45 PM
Like Azraelsbane, I didn't hate the book either. (See avatar). I was just a bit disappointed in it. I just think she could've done better. Sorry if that opinion doesn't sit well with people, but I was really expecting a lot from the finale of a seven book series. Maybe I was expecting too much, I don't know, but that's how I feel on it.

I thought the seventh book was a bit of a mess, too. I really dig all the Harry Potter books, but that was the first one where my Writerly self kept popping up going "Um...did you see that? Och..." now and then. And that doesn't happen, I just read to be entertained, no matter what the book.

If this were a more spoiler-iffic thread, I'd really get into it.

Roger J Carlson
10-26-2007, 09:51 PM
The parallels between Star Wars and Eragon are even more direct. Still, it's just another author's version of the hero's journey.

PeeDee
10-26-2007, 10:26 PM
May I suggest here that you all read Joseph Campbell's The Power of Myth as well as Hero of a Thousand Faces? It will destroy your world views.

brokenfingers
10-26-2007, 10:34 PM
Another one you might try reading is Christopher Vogler's The Writers Journey: Mythic Structure for Writers (http://www.amazon.com/Writers-Journey-Mythic-Structure-3rd/dp/193290736X/ref=sr_1_1/105-8682979-5348431?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1193423624&sr=8-1)

PeeDee's comment just reminded me that it's been sitting on my bookshelf unread for some months now.

Doodlebug
10-26-2007, 10:56 PM
If Voldemort turns out to be Harry's real dad, Lily's got some 'splainin' to do.


I don't know whether to laugh or go e-w-w-w...

DonnaDuck
10-26-2007, 11:09 PM
I don't know whether to laugh or go e-w-w-w...


Lily just couldn't resist Morty's forked tongue...you're welcome...

wayndom
10-27-2007, 05:31 AM
"Someone gets into trouble, then gets out of it. People love that story, they never get tired of it." -- Kurt Vonnegut

DarkLight
10-27-2007, 07:04 AM
I must appologize in advance to the numerous potter fanatics and die hard fans. Like Jesse, I'm about to possibly offend you all...

The seventh book was horrible. It was not very believable at all. There were a thousand different loopholes. Ron was a complete *ss and even though Rowling convienently blamed in on the horcrux, it was obvious she did so just so that she had an excuse to make Ron leave and bring back useful information like the Voldemort Taboo and that one radio show. I hate it when authors are excessively lazy and cannot find ways to at least semi-believably make characters and the actions they partake in to further the plot connect well. Further more, Harry Potter was very stupid. In all probablity, if there really was a Harry Potter and a Voldemort, that dumb kid would have been dead a long time ago. Sometimes an author needs to use luck to get a character out of a sticky situation but, come on, no one is that lucky. The result of an excessively lucky potter does the following...a). I no longer like potter that much becuase he is stupid and wins anyway, yet Voldemort is very thorough. How is that fair? b). It isn't believable. c). and the worst result is that Death Eaters stop intimidating me. They can't even capture a stupid seventeen year old kid who practically walks into the ministry and shouts "Get me! Na, na, na, na na!" Stupid character heroes are bearable if only they get gradually smarter. Harry is unable to learn from his mistakes. He screwed up stupidly in all the other books. He constantly ignores Dumbledore and Hermione only to get the innocent killed. Stupid kid! Character developement is not very great. It was very lossely structured and not well tightened and cut at all. And, of course, that horcrux necklace was too much like J.R.R Tolkein. Yes, enchanted items are nothing new, but is it not interesting that both were necklaces that infected the wearer, that were hard to bear? The necklace in HP had a heartbeat a bit like a living, thinking thing...that wants to return to its master. Hmmm? Ring a bell? Of course, even if this book sucked, in my opinion, I adored some of the others. I adored the 5th and 3rd books, which were very well written. But honestly, if book seven was the first she had tried to publish, not a single one would have been published and read. She got lazy. Oh, and it really bothered me that Dumbledore gets a huge funeral and we never even see a tribute to the dead Fred, Lupen, and Tonks. I wanted tears! Rowling probbaly got excited when Voldemort died and forgot that he killed people. oops.

Again, I apologize.

DonnaDuck
10-27-2007, 07:17 AM
As much as I do like Harry Potter, I pretty much agree with everything you said, DarkLight. Harry Potter, the character, has always been very low on my list. He's remained stunted since Goblet of Fire and I have yet to see how he's supposed to be this exceptional wizard when he's never gotten out of a situation based purely on his own merit. He's always had help, be it from others or ethereal and he's always been a mediocre wizard at best. With Ron I was disappointed that Rowling didn't mature him at all. He remained this stupid, infantile kid throughout most of the series. He showed some very strong merit in the first book but that was gone and he was reduced to a bumbling sidekick by the end of it all. What got me most was Ginny. Throughout the entire series she was always protrayed as a very strong girl, able to stand up on her own yet in the final battle, she actually listened when an adult told her to stay put (since when?) and the epilogue (which caused some of my cavities) she was reduced to a "proper" Weasley baby maker. From what Rowling said post publication, Ginny did play on the Harpies Quidditch team and did stand on her own for a while but we never saw that. I agree with my cousin when she says that she thinks Rowling just checked out on this one. I think it's blatantly obvious compared to the other six and the previous writing. She was always meticulous about connected plots and stories and items and whatnot and in the final book, it's pretty much tossed in the hat, wait, wait, wait, Neville chops off a snake's head, Harry survives yet another killing curse (what killed it for me) and bam, ending. I was disappointed, to say the least. I was expecting so much more. Perhaps I've been clouded by my own education but I've always been able to read as a reader and as an editor separately. But with this, even at a skim I was left a little disappointed by it all.

Christine N.
10-27-2007, 03:43 PM
The sixth book was much better than the seventh, although I still liked it. The sixth book I got the feeling was really the last book, and the seventh was just like one long series wrap-up. It didn't have the total suspense of the others.

I'll still read it again, as I know there are things I missed.

The_Grand_Duchess
10-27-2007, 09:11 PM
I didn't read the last Harry Potter book. I brought it, read the last couple of pages, read the pages of spoilers here and then decided that I wasn't. Maybe one day I'll pick it up. Maybe I won't. Who knows with me?