Germanic Legends and Myths

Let me preface this by saying that I am not a fan of conspiracies and secret societies. Not really sure I like this project, sorry. Other people would love it though, I am sure.

That said, you need to look into Wulfila (also known as Ulfilas) the Goth and the Arian Controversy. Arianism can be your conspiracy. Look into dualistic versus monotheistic sects. Don't know about the destruction of knowledge though, but this is a nice conflict that fits into your timeframe.

Another obvious direction would be Scandinavian mythology. Surtr the Fire Giant leads the attack against the gods at Ragnarokr. Voila, world destroyed (except for two people). Norse mythology has been overused, though.

Oh, and Loki of course can always be blamed for everything. (Please don't, though. I am still waiting for a good rendition of Loki by someone who actually knows the mythology pretty well. Loki is such a splendid controversial character, but even Gaiman did not get it right, alas).

Hope this helps. Let me know if you need more ideas.
Rose

Loki is who came to mind when I read your post.


Or you might do something with 'Yggdrasil', the tree of life guarded by three wise women called the Norns, kind of a Teutonic version of the three fates

The Norns didn't guard the tree, they happened to have their well at its root.

Yggdrasil also isn't a tree that is somewhere. It is a representation of the cosmos. It's not the "tree of life" as those of the Anglophone persuasion like to call it. It is the World Tree.

DraperJC said:

I've been Google Thrashing for a few days and haven't really nailed down what I'm looking for. I need some direction from someone who knows a thing or two about Germanic culture around 100 to 400 AD.

I'm looking for a legendary figure or god that would be interested in the destruction of civilization and knowledge. Preferably someone with a chip on their shoulder who could be personified in an actual character. Any relation to a secret society that seeks to bring about the end of the world would be a plus.

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Why not just resort to the Huns? They aren't Germanic, but they arrive in Europe soon after 400 and have Germanic tribes among their subjects. And Attila was a bit on the destructive side. You could invent a Hunnish God (though actually they worshipped nature spirits and the stars IIRC).
As for anticosmic secret societies, some extreme dualists or Gnostics would be fine. I don't think Arian Christians (such as the Goths were) would be very anticosmic. Perhaps previous posters have confused the Manicheans with the Arians or Gnostics or Bogomils?

DraperJC said:

I've been Google Thrashing for a few days and haven't really nailed down what I'm looking for. I need some direction from someone who knows a thing or two about Germanic culture around 100 to 400 AD.

I'm looking for a legendary figure or god that would be interested in the destruction of civilization and knowledge. Preferably someone with a chip on their shoulder who could be personified in an actual character. Any relation to a secret society that seeks to bring about the end of the world would be a plus.

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You might want to invent something like the Bogomils (but 600 years earlier):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogomil

Did they have secret societies that wanted to destroy the world back then? Maybe it's just me, but that concept feels pretty modern. And weren't the Germanic tribes too busy taking over the world to worry about destroying it? If you're not tied into Germanic (which is a pretty broad category anyway), maybe pick somebody who sees an invading Germanic tribe as world destroyers.

As far as secret societies, you might be able to go with something like Mithraism or even druidism (depending on setting) and portray it from the outside as wanting to undermine the established order, although that's not necessarily what they were like on the inside.

Or invent something similar to Mithraism except have the devotees worship chaos or something.

Actually destruction of knowledge (esp pagan knowledge, knowledge outside the bible) seems to fit several sects of Christianity, from what little I know of the matter. Isn't that part of what happened to the Library of Alexandria?

So a question. Could these destroyers see the knowledge/civilization they were detroying as false, somehow? Or do you need them to Want to Destroy the World? That's never been real convincing to me as a motive, tbh. People live in the world. Normally they want to destroy the other guy's part and keep their own...

Willowmound said:

The Norns didn't guard the tree, they happened to have their well at its root.

Yggdrasil also isn't a tree that is somewhere. It is a representation of the cosmos. It's not the "tree of life" as those of the Anglophone persuasion like to call it. It is the World Tree.

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Ah but I'm not an anglophone - I grew up speaking both English AND German

Shweta said:

Actually destruction of knowledge (esp pagan knowledge, knowledge outside the bible) seems to fit several sects of Christianity, from what little I know of the matter. Isn't that part of what happened to the Library of Alexandria?

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Was the Bible a fixed book by 400 A.D.? It certainly wouldn't have been by 100. But in any case although early Christian churches did want to destroy pagan knowledge, they weren't as "Bible only" as, say, today's Protestant churches. Today's Eastern Orthodox churches, which are the closest analogues to the early Christian churches, still go by "the Scriptures, the Fathers, and the canons." The term "Bible," although it exists, is rarely used, and the books of the Bible are regarded as repositories of the faith, but not the only one. I just wanted to mention that in case you go with a Christian group.

For what it's worth, I think the "evil, intolerant Christians" thing has been done to death, so I hope you don't go that way. After all, the Christians were the ones borrowing pagan customs like Christmas and adapting them to their faith.

I readily admit to being clueless on this, especially on the terminology

However, the destruction of knowledge thing does seem to pattern best with Christian (and later Muslim) destruction of pagan knowledge. Which may be part of why it's been done to death, of course.

But -- going out on a limb -- that kind of behavior (destruction for its own sake, rather than for the sake of stealing the other guys' women and loot) seems to pattern better with monotheistic groups than poly-or pantheistic groups. Which is to say, it's easier to justify if you think the other people's knowledge is false than if you just don't like their gods.

From what I've seen. If I'm hugely wrong, please lay on the smackdown

DraperJC said:

I may just have to make up a small group of civilization destroyers that want to start a secret order to destroy all the Roman Empire has to offer.

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If you're writing a story set around 400 ad, then it won't be long before the Roman Empire destroys itself

Shweta said:

But -- going out on a limb -- that kind of behavior (destruction for its own sake, rather than for the sake of stealing the other guys' women and loot) seems to pattern better with monotheistic groups than poly-or pantheistic groups. Which is to say, it's easier to justify if you think the other people's knowledge is false than if you just don't like their gods.

From what I've seen. If I'm hugely wrong, please lay on the smackdown

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No, I think that's true, although that's just my impression and I don't have any facts to back it up either. But as far as I know poly- and pantheistic groups tend to just kind of go with the flow belief-wise and let everybody do their own thing, while monotheistic groups are more likely to do the "we're right, you're wrong" thing.

Shweta said:

But -- going out on a limb -- that kind of behavior (destruction for its own sake, rather than for the sake of stealing the other guys' women and loot) seems to pattern better with monotheistic groups than poly-or pantheistic groups. Which is to say, it's easier to justify if you think the other people's knowledge is false than if you just don't like their gods.

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If he gets himself a nice dualistic sect, this can work out. After all, the dark god/Satan created the profane world of matter, while the good god created our souls that will reunite with him after death.

At this time, there was no Norse. You could do this with Odin / *Wotan, or Tyr, or any of the other gods you can trace to Proto-Germanic - but if you do this with Loki it would be far-fetched, IMHO.

johnnysannie said:

Ah but I'm not an anglophone - I grew up speaking both English AND German

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But in which language did you read about Yggdrasil?

Not that it matters. It wasn't my point

DraperJC said:

Gray Rose- So who is just lurking around and pining away for the Earth to be consumed in a Ragnorokish fire?

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The problem with your premise is that, as Shweta pointed out above, the Germanic peoples were more into conquest than destruction at that time period. If we are talking about the Norse mythology, neither the Aesir (gods) nor the giants actively plan to destroy the world. Loki is interested in Ragnarokr because that will free him and his son Fenris-wolf from the gods'-imposed imprisonment; however I doubt Loki is actually interested in his and his son's death, which, as they know, will happen during Ragnarokr.


Of course, as a storyteller, you have a huge license to twist the original stories any way you want.

I still think that the best way to make your project historically plausible is to take a Gnostic sect that wants to destroy the world because everything material was created by the imperfect Demiurge. The destruction would reunite the souls of men (sparkles trapped in the world of matter) with the Good God who created them. (Check out this less than perfect but still useful wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism

Any number of Gnostic sects existed in this time period, and you could easily take a Germanic tribe which adopts a dualistic/Gnostic doctrine (model this on Goths/Arianism).

The amount of research one should undertake for such a project would be quite significant, IMHO; it is certainly understandable if you won't want to bother with this and go with the Loki idea after all.

DraperJC said:

Gray Rose- So who is just lurking around and pining away for the Earth to be consumed in a Ragnorokish fire?

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I do believe that would be Surt and his minnons, the jotun/yotun/giants/etc.

PattiTheWicked said:

If you're writing a story set around 400 ad, then it won't be long before the Roman Empire destroys itself

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Only over 1000 years until Constantinople falls to the Turks. Or 1400 years until the Holy Roman Empire is officially disbanded. And the last Byzantine Monasteries in Sinai still consider themselves Byzantine (ie Roman).

Shweta said:

I readily admit to being clueless on this, especially on the terminology

However, the destruction of knowledge thing does seem to pattern best with Christian (and later Muslim) destruction of pagan knowledge. Which may be part of why it's been done to death, of course.

But -- going out on a limb -- that kind of behavior (destruction for its own sake, rather than for the sake of stealing the other guys' women and loot) seems to pattern better with monotheistic groups than poly-or pantheistic groups. Which is to say, it's easier to justify if you think the other people's knowledge is false than if you just don't like their gods.

From what I've seen. If I'm hugely wrong, please lay on the smackdown

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In reality neither the Christians nor the Muslims destroyed any Pagan knowledge. Indeed the basic narrative of the History of Western Science has to include the period from 800-1200 when Muslim scholars worked out many crucial concepts (eg. Algebra, algorithms, alchemy, perspective optics, the Almagest of Ptolemy with its Arabic title, sines and cosines (from India via Arabic) and of course the Arab numerals we use) and then the period from 1000-1400 when the Christian Latin West absorbed and expanded on the Pagan and Muslim base...starting with translations from Arabic around 1100.

I'm still in favor of the Huns or some Bogomil/dualist sect and not any Christian or Muslim sect as out to destroy knowledge.

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