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MacAllister
10-22-2007, 05:34 AM
There are some long-time members gone lately. Some of them finally warranted a permanent ban, and a couple of folks decided they don't like how things are here, and chose to leave.

I can't bring Ol' Fashioned Girl back, although the door is always open, and I honestly hope she doesn't stay gone and stay mad at me. I've considered her a good friend for a lot of years. Whether we always agree doesn't change that, for me.

I've worked on a long letter to you guys most of the day -- but it's mostly moot, honestly. I ended up scrapping it.

Look -- no one "owns" a community. It is what we all make it, together. There is, and has to be, someone at the helm, though, who decides policy, and determines what can happen here, and what just isn't acceptable.

That's me.

And that's not going to be changing in the foreseeable future. So if you're having trouble -- PM me. If you think I'm wrong? PM me. I'm not allergic to hearing it, and I'm certainly not immune to being wrong. It happens.

_______________

You'll notice some more changes, in coming weeks. We're going to be much tougher about the "don't act like a jerk" guideline. (That's "Respect Your Fellow Writer" for the more civilized members.) That goes for everyone -- no matter if you've been here five years or five minutes. And it goes everywhere -- even P & CE.

Look, this is your community. It is what we ALL make it, together. As always, I welcome your thoughts.

K1P1
10-22-2007, 05:40 AM
I just took a break from writing and stopped by for the first time in a while, and admit to total confusion as to what's going on. I've looked around and don't have any idea what happened. I assume the evidence has been deleted. Can anyone give me a clue? Or point me in the right direction with a link?

scarletpeaches
10-22-2007, 05:40 AM
I'm a bit worried that enforcing the rules more tightly will make people reluctant to speak up on points they feel strongly about. I've felt a couple of times, "Oh I better not say that; it might piss off a mod." Even though deep down I've hoped it would be taken as the joke I intended, I've been worried that I'd catch a mod on a bad day who wouldn't then think, "Oh, that's just SP being weird again."

Not to say I set out to deliberately annoy people - no, really. ;) It's just that there's been the occasional feeling of walking on eggshells. Being polite is never bad, but sometimes I feel like I need to censor my thoughts and feelings to avoid rocking the boat, rather than avoiding causing offence...if you see what I mean.

And I know due to recent banninations there's been bad feeling on AW recently. Either through friends of the bannees (yes, that's a real word) or people who wonder, "Am I next?"

Not to say AW is turning into a police state...just...it's not as much fun as it used to be.

Jings. I even feel uncomfortable making this post. But there you go. My contribution, such as it is.

veinglory
10-22-2007, 05:48 AM
On the other side at another forum I frequent someone recently asked about Absolute Write and multiple people advised her not to come here because posters can be rude and attack people. There needs, IMHO, to be a balance.

Hillary
10-22-2007, 05:50 AM
.

MacAllister
10-22-2007, 06:01 AM
I'm a bit worried that enforcing the rules more tightly will make people reluctant to speak up on points they feel strongly about. I've felt a couple of times, "Oh I better not say that; it might piss off a mod." Even though deep down I've hoped it would be taken as the joke I intended, I've been worried that I'd catch a mod on a bad day who wouldn't then think, "Oh, that's just SP being weird again."

Try to think of it as more evenly, rather than more tightly. That is, it's not okay for any member to tell another member "take a flying fuck" -- it's just not. And it's not okay to snap back, if someone tells you that, either -- this isn't kindergarten, and "yeah, well, he did it first!"


Not to say I set out to deliberately annoy people - no, really. ;) It's just that there's been the occasional feeling of walking on eggshells. Being polite is never bad, but sometimes I feel like I need to censor my thoughts and feelings to avoid rocking the boat, rather than avoiding causing offence...if you see what I mean.I do see what you mean. I wonder if we all need to periodically refocus on why we're here -- and it's about writing -- even while it's very much a valued social outlet for many of us, too.


And I know due to recent banninations there's been bad feeling on AW recently. Either through friends of the bannees (yes, that's a real word) or people who wonder, "Am I next?"
Yeah. And I don't know how to avoid that without either betraying confidences, or seeming to beat up on someone after they're already gone -- neither of which are okay, in my book. I welcome ideas, though, as to how I can better communicate stuff you guys do need to know.


Not to say AW is turning into a police state...just...it's not as much fun as it used to be.

Jings. I even feel uncomfortable making this post. But there you go. My contribution, such as it is.
See, here's the thing. I don't think it's as much fun as it used to be, either -- so how do we make it more fun again? I don't think giving people more license to behave badly is the answer. I do think consistency is important -- and I'm not sure how to pull it off, given that people will always tend to read their friends and acquaintances better than they read strangers.

That is, if a friend of mine says, "Jesus, Mac, you're an idiot..." I'm going to listen, and not feel like he's being rude to me. But a stranger doesn't get to say that, that way, you know?

Duncan J Macdonald
10-22-2007, 06:02 AM
I'm a bit worried that enforcing the rules more tightly will make people reluctant to speak up on points they feel strongly about. I've felt a couple of times, "Oh I better not say that; it might piss off a mod." Even though deep down I've hoped it would be taken as the joke I intended, I've been worried that I'd catch a mod on a bad day who wouldn't then think, "Oh, that's just SP being weird again."

Not to say I set out to deliberately annoy people - no, really. ;) It's just that there's been the occasional feeling of walking on eggshells. Being polite is never bad, but sometimes I feel like I need to censor my thoughts and feelings to avoid rocking the boat, rather than avoiding causing offence...if you see what I mean.

And I know due to recent banninations there's been bad feeling on AW recently. Either through friends of the bannees (yes, that's a real word) or people who wonder, "Am I next?"

Not to say AW is turning into a police state...just...it's not as much fun as it used to be.

Jings. I even feel uncomfortable making this post. But there you go. My contribution, such as it is.

I would have to disagree. There are certainly areas of AW that require a stong stomach to enter, and others where logic fails completely. Yet the majority of the board seems to be serving it's intended purpose (if I may be so bold), and there are even places to have fun.

The P&CE section is, I feel, one of the necessary areas, kind of like needing a drainage tube inside a pus-filled wound. That stuff's gotta go somewhere, or it will end up affecting other areas. Plus, having a place like that makes it easy for people to avoid it. I've lost track of the number of times that I've typed up a heated reply to a particularly asinine post by someone who, if they had any brain cells working at all, would see that the position that they are so vociferously defending is simply stupid, wrong, and would lead the world into a veritable sink of sin and depravity. I then sit back and read what I've written. Nine times out of ten, I'll delete it -- not because I'm worried about pissing off a Mod, but generally because it's just not worth getting into a battle of wits with an unarmed person.

I've been lurking here a lot of years -- I made the switch to the new boards way back when -- and there have been ups and downs, but in the main, it has been a fairly stable place. It's not, IMHO, that it's turning into a Police State, but rather that the Authorities are having to step up their oversight and become a little more active than they've had to be in the past. This too shall pass.

maestrowork
10-22-2007, 06:06 AM
We censor ourselves all the time in real life because we're civilized people. That doesn't mean we can't be ourselves, but we are all responsible for our words. Just because this is a "virtual" community and just electronic bits and bytes on a computer screen doesn't mean anything goes. We need to abide by the community's rules -- and this community, by and large, has a really simple rule: respect your fellow members.

"Respect other members" doesn't mean you have to like them, or talk to them, or listen to them. It just means you can't throw eggs at them when you're pissed off. Walk away instead. Report them. But no one is entitled to throw eggs. Like Mac said, we're not in kindergarten anymore.

Most people who get banned or reprimanded because they abuse this simple rule, including newbies and long-time supporters. Two wrongs don't make a right -- once we go down a path of disrespecting others, no matter how "justified" we are, we have willfully violated this very simple, but sacred rule that keeps this community strong.

There are many tools implemented on the board to address issues: Report, Ignore, PMs, etc. The mods are here to mitigate issues and differences. Yes, we have differences and we understand differences and we even embrace differences, but not at the expense of "respect."

Granted, we're only humans and we falter sometimes. Even mods are not immune to short fuses and emotions. But I think this community will be stronger if we keep the communication open and keep reminding each other what it means to be a community, and help each other out, we'll be okay.

DamaNegra
10-22-2007, 06:07 AM
Okay, just MHO.

There seems to be a... weird atmosphere around the forums lately. I've noticed it. I don't post as often as I did because... well... everything just feels a little weird. I don't remember there being such a huge number of bannings and thread lockings one year, two years ago.

But the reality is that I also hadn't noticed such an amount of rude posts before. People attacking each other, people making fun of each other, that sort of thing. There are even posters who chase each other around to board just to get a shot at each other. The number of fights has also been escalating out of proportions lately. The atmosphere at AW is simply not what it used to be. It's getting weird. Part fear, part rudeness, this is not the forums I used to know. And I don't like it one bit.

I've never felt scared to post. But then again, I've never been a controversial poster. I know where I stand on these boards. I'm younger than most of the members. I respect their opinions and use them to form my own. I don't talk about what I don't know, which is most of the discussions around here. I'm here to learn, not to fight about stupid political stuff that has little or nothing to do with the actual writing except for the fact that it can generate ideas.

When a group grows as much as AW is growing lately, it's obvious that people are never going to agree. But maybe it's just me, but posters seem to have become childish. Pointing fingers, issuing personal attacks. Is that really necessary? I think not.

While I think the Mod squad has become a little extreme and some of the Mods are a little too cranky, unpatient and quick to close a thread, the posters are also become insufferable. It's a bad combination that's due to blow up at any moment.

Again, just MHO.

joyce
10-22-2007, 06:09 AM
I've only been here about ten months and I do frequent the boards regularly. I must say that AW has been nothing but helpful to me and my writing. I've learned things that I'm not sure I ever would have without this great place and all the great people that are here. During this time I've only noticed on several occasions someone being rude or an ass. They are usually the same people over and over again. I've also know there are posts that are filled with nothing but humor, maybe some could consider "sick humor" but it's still funny, at least to me. I have sick humor so mayber they are just funny to sick people like me.

For instance, when people like Scarlet, Haggis or Spooky posts on a thread I know it's going to be hilarious. I might not leave a post, but I will probably read it just because I know I'm going to laugh. Sometime I just need a laugh in my like. I know that sometimes a jerk apears on a thread and ruins it by making rude remarks to someone. Yes, as an adult me and everyone should ignore the remark, but sometimes it's hard when you see some innocent victim being ripped to shreds by an ass.

I hope this place stays as it is. I think the Mods are doing a great job dealing with so many people and personality types and keeping everything in order. I do hope this does not become a police state where we no longer can speak freely. Saying means things to someone with intent is never acceptable, but I hope the laughs are still allowed to flow freely. A true jerk just always seems to stick out.

Angie
10-22-2007, 06:10 AM
I totally agree with being tougher on the "don't be a jerk" rule. I really think a lot of problems lately have been caused by members sniping at each other because (and I'm really NOT trying to be a b*tch or anti-mod OR anti-member here) there's a perception that one person or another keeps getting a sort of "free pass" to be a jerk, while someone else gets banned. And I know there's a lot of discussion before that ban button is hit; again, I'm not trying to cause trouble for mods. Some of the mods are my good friends. I just think that there are some people who don't think the rules are being applied fairly to everyone, and that's causing a lot of tension and drama.

I'm not in a position to make that judgment, and I'm glad I'm not. And I think a little more courtesy on everyone's part will clear up a lot of the trouble. As it is now, I post primarily in OP, partly because it's a great stress reliever for me, and partly because the threads there tend to be more fun-loving and less sniping.

Just my two cents. I'll fade back into the obscurity of my silly threads now.

scarletpeaches
10-22-2007, 06:11 AM
See, here's the thing. I don't think it's as much fun as it used to be, either -- so how do we make it more fun again?

Make me a superdupermod? :D


I don't think giving people more license to behave badly is the answer. I do think consistency is important -- and I'm not sure how to pull it off, given that people will always tend to read their friends and acquaintances better than they read strangers.

Of course I'm not talking about allowing people to behave badly. Then again, there's a fine line between making allowances for individual personalities and giving the appearance of favouring one person over another.

It's a difficult position to be in and not one I envy. It's certainly true we read friends better than strangers and that in itself carries the danger of making 'outsiders' feel like we're part of a clique - when in fact they shouldn't feel like outsiders at all.


That is, if a friend of mine says, "Jesus, Mac, you're an idiot..." I'm going to listen, and not feel like he's being rude to me. But a stranger doesn't get to say that, that way, you know?

Similarly, I made a reference to handicripples in a post to Azraelsbane earlier (which she repped me for, incidentally). A stranger would think, "Jesus, H - how'd she get away with that?!" But I like to think me and Az have a rapport. :D And she used that word first, anyway, so neener.

I'd hate to think members here felt too on edge to fully be themselves, but at the same time realise 'respect your fellow writer' is our prime directive.

There are always going to be people you get on with more than others - that's not cliquism, just human nature - and yet, getting too comfortable on a public forum can often make us forget that we are in public, and anyone can read what we say.

I know I've offended a few people with various posts I've made in the past but the majority of AWers understand that because of my background, upbringing, personality quirks, I'm a naturally irreverent, piss-taking kind of person. I know to a newbie I can come across as far more assertive than I actually feel. I know to people in real life I can come across as far more asssertive than I actually feel. But I only take the piss out of people I feel comfortable with. It's my way of showing affection, MacAllister, you big modNazi. Please don't ban me.

scarletpeaches
10-22-2007, 06:14 AM
...For instance, when people like Scarlet, Haggis or Spooky posts on a thread I know it's going to be hilarious. I might not leave a post, but I will probably read it just because I know I'm going to laugh. Sometime I just need a laugh in my like...

Yay! I can haz cookie now plz? :e2cookie:

JeanneTGC
10-22-2007, 06:14 AM
At the risk of souding flippant (not my intent), could someone explain what's going on? I don't think I can be the only person on AW who is, frankly, not aware of a lot of the brouhaha. I have no idea of why OFG has left, had no idea of why PeeDee would have left, have no idea of what's going on, but it's clearly affecting a place I hold dear.

There ARE people on the boards who I know go out of their way to bait others. A couple of them have "gotten" me. But like Maestro said, you have to censor yourself. I've slipped up a couple of times, I think everyone does. But so far, things get resolved or I let them drop. There are plenty of threads I thought should be shut down, several people I feel should be banned -- but I'm not a mod and I don't run the joint, and so I just sort of move along. Everyone has good days and bad days, you know?

There are thousands of others on the boards who don't cause trouble anywhere, or with anyone. I'd have to venture a guess that most of them have no idea of what happened to promt Mac's post, nor any clear idea of "what's wrong". It's great (seriously) that Mac's addressed whatever it is -- because nothing destroys faster than rumor and innuendo -- but it's so vague that for those of us who have no idea of what's going on, it creates a different kind of fear and stress.

So, um, again, at the risk of being told that if I don't know, I don't need to know, what's going on?

SpookyWriter
10-22-2007, 06:14 AM
I do see what you mean. I wonder if we all need to periodically refocus on why we're here -- and it's about writing -- even while it's very much a valued social outlet for many of us, too.
To be honest that's what I did several months ago. I'd rather write and participate in other areas of this forum than a few places where tempers tend to flare rather easily. Just not worth it.

I also found out long ago that there is more to life than spending hours and hours each day on the internet. Believe it or not but there is a world outside of the computer.

I can't say enough about using this forum for what it was intended and not become so involved with politics or temper tantrums that it distracts you from getting more out of this site.

Well that's my two kopeck worth. And I'd like to remind people that Mac is a fair person and not prone to just toss a member to the pavement like some other writing forums.

DamaNegra
10-22-2007, 06:20 AM
So, um, again, at the risk of being told that if I don't know, I don't need to know, what's going on?

I don't know what the hell is going on either. I just know that the atmosphere's changed, and some members I loved dearly are leaving. I, too, was considering leaving for good, because this place just doesn't feel the same. I stayed, though, because I'd rather work on whatever's wrong so this place can feel right again.

maestrowork
10-22-2007, 06:21 AM
I do think Scarlet has a good point: sometimes we joke and tease and muck around with members we feel comfortable with (the HOL, for example), but to other people, those posts/thread may come off as irrelevant, annoying, racy, rude, etc. and not many people get it as "oh, Scarlet was just having fun with Azraelsbane who's her friend." Perception vs. perception.

I guess it becomes an issue of balance -- how do we have fun, bond with our friends but not come off to others as jerks? I guess an analogy to remember is this: it's like we're at a party. Some of us are great friends and we have a clique... and we joke and tease each other and have a great time, but we also need to know that we're all wearing a loud speaker -- everyone else at the party can hear us, and our behaviors do impact other guests at the party. If that's the case, how would you react? Are you going to be a jerk and say "screw everyone else -- we're just having fun" or would you be more considerate and direct your more "racy" and "loud" stuff to PMs and rep points?

Something to consider, no?

san_remo_ave
10-22-2007, 06:21 AM
You'll notice some more changes, in coming weeks. We're going to be much tougher about the "don't act like a jerk" guideline. (That's "Respect Your Fellow Writer" for the more civilized members.) That goes for everyone -- no matter if you've been here five years or five minutes. And it goes everywhere -- even P & CE.

And that's the key, I think. Consistency.

I've noticed over the weekend that there seems to be less posting and frivolity. Likely, that's aftershocks. I, too, have hesitated a couple of times before posting. Which isn't a bad thing. We should all take a moment to think before we post, and make sure we are responding with care and deliberation. And if someone chooses to post something questionable, we can all expect the same type of consequence.

The unease will dispell soon enough.

Another point that's been made that I take to heart, is the one to be more diligent in alerting mods to questionable postings. I'll admit that I usually just roll my eyes and move on, but I realize I can be move involved in flagging such content. And I'll do that because I care about this community and the folks in it.

This too will pass.

K1P1
10-22-2007, 06:27 AM
At the risk of souding flippant (not my intent), could someone explain what's going on? I don't think I can be the only person on AW who is, frankly, not aware of a lot of the brouhaha. I have no idea of why OFG has left, had no idea of why PeeDee would have left, have no idea of what's going on, but it's clearly affecting a place I hold dear.

Yes indeed, my sentiments exactly. It would be nice to have some idea what in the world is going on.

veinglory
10-22-2007, 06:29 AM
I think that it would be good to try and keep the socialising more in the social areas. Not exclusively, just enough for writing-related threads not to get swamped.

mscelina
10-22-2007, 06:31 AM
Cyber personalities are hard to decipher. I am a terminal thread derailer (the meds are helping) and sometimes go on exuberant posting binges about really really stupid things (like pie). I can also get quite easily annoyed when someone is being a jerk.

The jerk I get most annoyed with? Me. My sense of humor doesn't always translate well. *sigh*

I've found that AW is a great online haven for writers of all levels of expertise, and an even greater resource. The mods have a herculean chore and for the most part a great deal of patience. When they lose their patience I figure it's something pretty extreme. If it's with me then I accept that, I take my hand-slapping meekly and go back to what I should really be doing which is working. I can't help being a smartalec all the time(genetics suck), but usually I can try not to be an asshat.

That being said, I'd have to toss in that there are a lot of people on AW who are doing NaNo. Not only should that prove to be a good stress release, but it should keep us pretty darn busy. Maybe that will help ease the tension and bring us back to play in December with a stronger understanding of the differences between fun and mean or assertive and aggressive.

I'll try to do my part. Cheers.

Ava Jarvis
10-22-2007, 06:31 AM
It will pass.

I have seen some really stupendous stuff break out that I was surprised to see here, in weird forums---I mean, the Newbie forum? The FAQ forum? The Blogging forum? There have been threads there that got locked and moved for good reason. When Take it Outside is saner than other places, something is weird.

I wonder if it's the politics threads that are causing it. The thing is, some people are rude there, and then carry it over into other places. Consistency is important.

I've been on places with inconsistent moderation. It tends to result in stuff like this. I don't know what to do about it sometimes, other than try to be more consistent. Sane political conversations can be had... or can they?

The Warren Ellis Forum remained the sanest for a long time, for various reasons: a cracking mod team, a site owner who was not afraid to crack down, simple but clear forum conduct rules (The Engine, a brief official revival, said "If you try to turn this into your Personal Arguing Machine, you will get banned", basically, right on the front page).

I've seen politics threads in there that threatened to boil over in just three posts get clobbered and locked, usually with a sense of firm humor from the mods.

Then there are places where it's been decided that the users can do whatever they want, just about, including racist threads, and mods must express their power only through careful discussion, which doesn't work against high-octane trolls.

So I think the AW mods are doing some slight readjustment for the increase in rudeness, which should help settle things down back to normal.

Gods know I've been places where I wish that had happened.

MacAllister
10-22-2007, 06:36 AM
Originally Posted by JeanneTGC http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1745965#post1745965)
At the risk of souding flippant (not my intent), could someone explain what's going on? I don't think I can be the only person on AW who is, frankly, not aware of a lot of the brouhaha. I have no idea of why OFG has left, had no idea of why PeeDee would have left, have no idea of what's going on, but it's clearly affecting a place I hold dear.
Yes indeed, my sentiments exactly. It would be nice to have some idea what in the world is going on.

Yeah -- in brief, OFG and Rich get into a fairly major brouhaha anywhere Rich posts on the board. A handful of other folks have taken to following him around and poking him into losing his temper -- of which he has plenty -- and actively campaigning to get him banned.

Now, Rich is a friend of mine, too -- and yeah. I know he can be quite acerbic and outspoken, and even rude.

But you guys don't know most of the stuff that we're doing behind the scenes to try to fix or smooth things over, or whether anything at all is being done.

OFG decided nothing was being done, because what she wanted done wasn't what she saw happening, and she left.

Now, there's always more than one side to every story -- and I'm sure there will be other folks here with different versions. I don't want to get into the specifics of this situation, and what to do about Rich or what to do about OFG isn't open for discussion.

EriRae
10-22-2007, 06:38 AM
Please don't say this is like a party, or I'll feel like I have to be a wallflower all over again ;)

In all seriousness, I agree that the boards have changed, even in the few months I've been a member. I was here when Gordon Jerome was booted the second time, and I thought that would be the norm for anyone who acted like he did. There have been a couple of instances where that didn't happen. I realize that each case is different (ie. GJ was kicked out before, came back, and caused more trouble, but when a newbie comes in and does the same thing, he's given more chances).

I walk away from my computer without hurt feelings, but some people don't. I consider quite a few writers on this forum to be friends, so when someone circles the wagons, I'm right there. I realize that makes me part of the problem.

From now on, I agree to attempt to disarm the situation rather than to join the fight. I don't want to lose my friends to bannination or hurt feelings.

SpookyWriter
10-22-2007, 06:38 AM
I wonder if it's the politics threads that are causing it. The thing is, some people are rude there, and then carry it over into other places. Consistency is important.Yep. In my opinion that forum had more incidents of name calling and belligerence than I can ever recall. Heck, it even sucked me in for a while but I pretty much stopped posting there because I felt the forum was a place for people to bicker all day long.

Cassiopeia
10-22-2007, 06:38 AM
I keep backspacing this post. It is very difficult at times like these to express one's emotions adequately.

I don't know what happened or why, other than OFG is gone. I am saddened by that as I am sure everyone else is.

Poet has let me bend his ear on a number of occasions when I was struggling to stay as well. I am grateful to him for his patience as this medium is a difficult one in which to get our thoughts across without bias or prejudice being read into them.

I don't claim to be the brightest bulb in the box. I am however, observant. The reason the board has changed is the blatant disregard for respecting your fellow writer. It creates an uneasy atmosphere when people begin bickering and fighting with one another. I'm not perfect and I don't suspect any of us are. Yet I find the excuse that someone was provoked, poor solace when someone I respect has been torn to shreds by them. What must visitors think when they read threads like that? What does it do for the professional atmosphere that so many have spent years working to create?

I am confident that those who have been banned earned it. I believe the admin are doing the best they can to keep things going smoothly.

I for one, plan on sticking around for a long time to come. I do hope OFG comes back. She is a dear friend and I will miss her. Her contributions to this board and each of us is something above and beyond the call of duty.

SpookyWriter
10-22-2007, 06:42 AM
bickering - yep, that's the word I was looking for to describe what's been going on.

mscelina
10-22-2007, 06:43 AM
*snip*

But you guys don't know most of the stuff that we're doing behind the scenes to try to fix or smooth things over, or whether anything at all is being done.

*snip*

That's probably the most important thing and what the rest of us as non-super-duper-mods need to realize. We DON'T know. Report the post and/or poster to a mod and have done with it. It's probably much simpler to see how things develop and, if it still seems to be a problem, follow up with a mod-type-person in pm.

One other suggestion-type-of-thing: a gentle hint in PM or rep posts if a poster is becoming too exuberant might forestall some of this. I had one last week and it sort of worked...kinda.

I'll take mine on Tuesdays, please.

Voyager
10-22-2007, 06:46 AM
IMO, it wasn't so much what was posted as where. It was really an uncomfortable situation. That said, I'm feeling uneasy about the fact that so many of the threads I've posted in over the past couple of days have ended up locked. With the exception of one post that I still feel really strongly about no matter who was offended by it, I would hate to think that I contributed to that in any way. So, no more fun posts for me. I'd rather bite my tongue and stick to the informational posts than to think for one moment that I've hurt someone's feelings.

JeanneTGC
10-22-2007, 06:47 AM
Maybe instructions for how and why to do a complaint on a post should be more stressed. There are plenty of folks who post things I feel are inflammatory, but I don't do anything because I will normally ignore them. Perhaps I, and others, shouldn't ignore them any longer but instead report them?

JJ Cooper
10-22-2007, 06:48 AM
I do find the deliberate de-railing of threads by some members quite annoying at times. Especially when someone new asks a question that may have been asked before (there got that off my chest).

If a mod deletes a post or merges your thread into another, any chance of a short note via PM/rep point to say 'Hey JJ your thread/post was crap and we deleted/merged it'. This is probably what happens most of the time and may have been overlooked lately (for me anyway).

And remember to always respect writers from countries outside of your own (especially Aussies because they rock).

JJ

Cranky
10-22-2007, 06:49 AM
This is one of those times when I feel like I've got "NOOB" plastered to my avatar in glowing neon letters.

I have no clue what, exactly, happened, but if the results are that more folks will be obeying the prime directive, then that's great. I know I've censored myself more than once, and there have been a couple of times that -in hindsight- I wished that I had just deleted the post before I clicked "Post Reply". *sigh*

ETA: Saw Mac's explanation...so I get it now, sorta. :)

MacAllister
10-22-2007, 06:50 AM
Maybe instructions for how and why to do a complaint on a post should be more stressed. There are plenty of folks who post things I feel are inflammatory, but I don't do anything because I will normally ignore them. Perhaps I, and others, shouldn't ignore them any longer but instead report them?
Ask and ye shall receive... (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81304)

:)

Medievalist
10-22-2007, 06:51 AM
Maybe instructions for how and why to do a complaint on a post should be more stressed. There are plenty of folks who post things I feel are inflammatory, but I don't do anything because I will normally ignore them. Perhaps I, and others, shouldn't ignore them any longer but instead report them?

If you're uncomfortable, or think other members would be uncomfortable, and I mean uncomfortable in a bad way not the Gee-I-never-thought-about-that-way-and-now-I'm-thinking-hard way, then either use the report a post button, or PM a mod, or supermod, or Admin.

We'll decide what to do, if anything, and we'll be awfully appreciative that you cared enough about AW WC and your fellow members to think of them/us.

SpookyWriter
10-22-2007, 06:52 AM
Ask and ye shall receive... (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81304)

:)I was going to say that but couldn't figure out how to do the linky thingy. :D

DamaNegra
10-22-2007, 06:56 AM
I do find the deliberate de-railing of threads by some members quite annoying at times. Especially when someone new asks a question that may have been asked before (there got that off my chest).

Ah! I'm seriously bothered by thread derailings. Seriously, that's what OP is for. I hate it when serious threads that still have more to give are derailed for no reason at all.

There. I said it.

SpookyWriter
10-22-2007, 06:58 AM
Ah! I'm seriously bothered by thread derailings. Seriously, that's what OP is for. I hate it when serious threads that still have more to give are derailed for no reason at all.

There. I said it.I believe you just derailed this thread.

maestrowork
10-22-2007, 07:03 AM
I believe you just derailed this thread.

I've just reported you, jerk. ;)

KIDDING! Just in case you don't know. KIDDING!

SpookyWriter
10-22-2007, 07:07 AM
I've just reported you, jerk. ;)

KIDDING! Just in case you don't know. KIDDING!Yeah, I forgot to put a smiley face on my last post. Darn.

poetinahat
10-22-2007, 07:20 AM
IMO, this place becomes 'less fun' every three or four months. Then it passes.

I think that, in part, it's a sign that an awful lot of us care an awful lot about AW... and the other people here.

That's the way it is with family. Things change, people come and go, or they change. I bet most of us have had more than one moment where we've thought, "It's just not the same anymore... maybe I should leave." I know I have. Several times.

But it always gets better again.

Either that, or I get better again. Either way, I'm still here (yay, or boo, that's the way it is).

That's why I'll probably have to be banned at some point. I just can't quit you all, and even if I want to... I really don't.

SpookyWriter
10-22-2007, 07:22 AM
IMO, this place becomes 'less fun' every three or four months. Then it passes.

I think that, in part, it's a sign that an awful lot of us care an awful lot about AW... and the other people here.

That's the way it is with family. Things change, people come and go, or they change. I bet most of us have had more than one moment where we've thought, "It's just not the same anymore... maybe I should leave." I know I have. Several times.

But it always gets better again.

Either that, or I get better again. Either way, I'm still here (yay, or boo, that's the way it is).

That's why I'll probably have to be banned at some point. I just can't quit you all, and even if I want to... I really don't.Rob, tell the truth. You stay to keep an eye on me. Come'on, admit it and you'll feel better in the morning.

JoNightshade
10-22-2007, 07:23 AM
Count me in as another clueless person. All I've noticed is that the boards have been seriously boring for the past week or so. Is everyone just scared or what?

I know nobody wants to hash these things out and pick them to pieces... people being banned is totally up to the mods and I respect that.

But when people just disappear and I have no idea where they went, and then I'm afraid to ask because I'm scared they got banned and then I'll get smacked if I ask... well, it's not really good for morale, let's say that.

Could we possibly just have a couple of ongoing threads (or stickies or whatever) for the following?

1) People who are leaving, forever or for an extended period of time.

2) People who have been banned, and a brief explanation of why.

I think maybe these could be threads where only mods could post, so if you want to say that you are leaving and why, you can PM a mod and have them post for you. I mean, it would have to be genuine, and not a flounce or a rant. Or if the mods banned someone, they could just offer a brief explanation, such as "Member continues to pick fights in spite of a number of warnings."

I think it would help the rest of us feel better and have an idea of what the heck is going on. Provide a sense of closure, if you will.

DamaNegra
10-22-2007, 07:28 AM
I second Jo.

Shady Lane
10-22-2007, 07:31 AM
Third Jo.

MacAllister
10-22-2007, 07:36 AM
Okay. That's doable.

And exactly the sort of thing I was really, really hoping to see come out of this discussion.

TrainofThought
10-22-2007, 07:36 AM
In my opinion, there isn’t a clear-cut resolution to this problem other than people using common sense before and during posting. I’ve refrained from posting and avoided threads where I know particular posters roam to avoid confrontation and a rise in blood pressure. I read rude posts and wonder why the HELL the person bothered to post in the first place. Move on if you don’t care, or want to contribute in a positive way. What is so hard about doing that? Some long time members associate with each other, which is fine but they seem to expect others to accept and understand their posts whether it be advice or sarcasm. And there are newbies who come to AW, jump in and ignore or never read the Newbie’s Guide that explains the rules.

I don’t necessarily agree that disrespecting ‘your fellow writers’ includes and is limited to name calling. There are many posts by Mods, long time members and newbies that I find condescending and rude. It isn’t my style to complain, argue or run to a Mod so I put the person on ignore or avoid them. In my opinion, not enough people use the ‘Ignore’ button. I have recently asked a Mod to lock a thread of mine because of the way members came into the thread and attacked other members. Yes, they apologized to me, but it is a recent example of how long time members assume everyone understands them.

The thing is if I am or anyone else is unhappy here they can leave, or learn to avoid/ignore posters in which your personality doesn’t mesh well. It’s obvious there are plenty of nationalities, races and sexual orientation where you won’t approve or agree so take what you can from those you admire and/or respect and leave the others alone.

This is the last you’ll hear from me regarding an overall complaint.

joyce
10-22-2007, 07:37 AM
I'm with Jo.

mscelina
10-22-2007, 07:39 AM
I'm not. I can understand what you're getting at, but I can't agree.

I'm not sure that it would be helpful or necessary or, in many cases, anyone else's business. Usually if someone is banned it's not hard to figure out why.

Might want to come up with something other than "Banned" for someone who's on a 3-day leave. That would let the curious know that it's a punishment and isn't permanent, which might ease the "OMG where is *fill in the blank*???" undercurrents.

Just a thought. Going back to massacre my WIP some more.

maestrowork
10-22-2007, 07:39 AM
I don’t necessarily agree that disrespecting ‘your fellow writers’ includes and is limited to name calling. There are many posts by Mods, long time members and newbies that I find condescending and rude. It isn’t my style to complain, argue or run to a Mod so I put the person on ignore or avoid them.

I said I was sorry.... :cry: but I guess you didn't see my post because...

TrainofThought
10-22-2007, 07:42 AM
Huh? Did someone say something? :D

reigningcatsndogs
10-22-2007, 07:43 AM
Could we possibly just have a couple of ongoing threads (or stickies or whatever) for the following?

1) People who are leaving, forever or for an extended period of time.

2) People who have been banned, and a brief explanation of why.

I think maybe these could be threads where only mods could post, so if you want to say that you are leaving and why, you can PM a mod and have them post for you. I mean, it would have to be genuine, and not a flounce or a rant. Or if the mods banned someone, they could just offer a brief explanation, such as "Member continues to pick fights in spite of a number of warnings."

I think it would help the rest of us feel better and have an idea of what the heck is going on. Provide a sense of closure, if you will.

I don't want to be contrary, but perhaps offer a different perspective, and PLEASE don't read more into this than there is. When I worked with the police, out of respect for the people we dealt with, we did NOT ever discuss who was in trouble for what, or who did whatever to whomever. The people involved knew who they were, the people in trouble knew why, those offended knew what was happening, and for the rest of the world, it wasn't pertinent. Sometimes the person we dealt with was a chronic problem, and then people could assume whatever they wanted. Sometimes it was someone who made a mistake, and they really were not proud of the fact. While posting their names may satisfy curiosity, it can and often is detrimental to the person who made the stupid mistake. It's really makes me think of grade school when the naughty children got their names slapped on the blackboard and had to sit on the stool right underneath it, and all it does is make that person feel even worse.

Here, the rules are pretty simple. If someone is banned, it is something that does not happen lightly (I truly believe this) and it is for breaking the one rule -- they were disrepectful. The details really are of no consequence.

Please do NOT construe this as my comparing in any way, shape or form to legal transgressions, poplice enforcement or anything else. I just think that what happens between the mods and the individuals on this board is just that -- between the mods and the individual.

Just my opinion:Shrug:

JoNightshade
10-22-2007, 07:45 AM
I'm not sure that it would be helpful or necessary or, in many cases, anyone else's business. Usually if someone is banned it's not hard to figure out why.

Well, this is a little odd, but I think of AW as my work environment. I usually hang out here while I'm working (writing), so you guys are all my coworkers. Now, I've been at a lot of jobs where someone was just suddenly GONE and none of the bosses said anything about WHY. And that always makes everyone scared, and it usually results in a ton of gossiping in the lunchroom when the bosses can't hear. It's so much better when the boss says something like, "Well, we're sorry to do this, but we had to let so-and-so go. Things just weren't working out."

Also... okay, I may be a little dense, but I usually can't figure out why someone was banned. I'm not the kind of person who will go hunting through locked threads and whatnot. So for me, people just disappear. Which kind of freaks me out.

Bartholomew
10-22-2007, 07:47 AM
Count me in as another clueless person. All I've noticed is that the boards have been seriously boring for the past week or so. Is everyone just scared or what?

I know nobody wants to hash these things out and pick them to pieces... people being banned is totally up to the mods and I respect that.

But when people just disappear and I have no idea where they went, and then I'm afraid to ask because I'm scared they got banned and then I'll get smacked if I ask... well, it's not really good for morale, let's say that.

Could we possibly just have a couple of ongoing threads (or stickies or whatever) for the following?

1) People who are leaving, forever or for an extended period of time.

2) People who have been banned, and a brief explanation of why.

I think maybe these could be threads where only mods could post, so if you want to say that you are leaving and why, you can PM a mod and have them post for you. I mean, it would have to be genuine, and not a flounce or a rant. Or if the mods banned someone, they could just offer a brief explanation, such as "Member continues to pick fights in spite of a number of warnings."

I think it would help the rest of us feel better and have an idea of what the heck is going on. Provide a sense of closure, if you will.

Good idea.

Folk like TourdeForce and Dclary don't just vanish. We're a community. Even when someone seriously pisses someone else off, there are personalities we associate with the homey-ness of this place. Suddenly hearing that so-and-so is gone without knowing why gives this place the environment of a huge city where there's been an abduction, you know there has, and you've got to find clues as to where that person went. I'm willing to bet I'm not the only one who's done name-searches to try to find a certain poster's final thread. Or gone to google's cache and looked up a now non-existent profile page hunting for an MSN contact.

Alternatively, keeping a public thread about this might cause more problems than it solves. At another forum I used to frequent, the mods had a "Gallows" forum, where they publicly belittled posters who broke any rule.

MacAllister
10-22-2007, 07:49 AM
For the record, no. Banning is never done lightly. And any banning but a spammer usually results in me eating antacids for three or four days, and second-guessing myself, and wondering if maybe I'd just tried a little bit harder to get through to the bannee...

kristie911
10-22-2007, 07:52 AM
I admit that I get freaked out when I see someone has Banned under their name. I have to go back through their posts and see why they're gone. And most of the time, I don't really get it. While it would nice to know why someone was banned, I think if there was just some distinction between Banned and 3 day time out. That way we wouldn't be sitting around wondering if they were coming back.

Cassiopeia
10-22-2007, 07:54 AM
I think it might pose a morale problem. If it happens that a great number are banned in the months that follow, it could be come a duck and cover situation.

However, understanding HOW someone committed infractions so grievous that they were banned CAN be educational and help to thwart such necessary actions in the future.

Medievalist
10-22-2007, 07:54 AM
Or gone to google's cache and looked up a now non-existent profile page hunting for an MSN contact.

We don't delete profiles, or accounts. Users may choose to delete their posts.

Even when you think we've deleted a post, we haven't; it's still in the database, it's just set not to show.

mscelina
10-22-2007, 07:55 AM
Well, this is a little odd, but I think of AW as my work environment. I usually hang out here while I'm working (writing), so you guys are all my coworkers. Now, I've been at a lot of jobs where someone was just suddenly GONE and none of the bosses said anything about WHY. And that always makes everyone scared, and it usually results in a ton of gossiping in the lunchroom when the bosses can't hear. It's so much better when the boss says something like, "Well, we're sorry to do this, but we had to let so-and-so go. Things just weren't working out."

Also... okay, I may be a little dense, but I usually can't figure out why someone was banned. I'm not the kind of person who will go hunting through locked threads and whatnot. So for me, people just disappear. Which kind of freaks me out.


It's understandable. And you're not dense. I just think (my personal opinion) that a public forum on matters of bannination could be troublesome. The gods know I've been wrong many many many times before.

JoNightshade
10-22-2007, 07:57 AM
It's understandable. And you're not dense. I just think (my personal opinion) that a public forum on matters of bannination could be troublesome. The gods know I've been wrong many many many times before.

Well, that's why I suggested it be a thread where only mods could post (and everyone could see, but not comment). There wouldn't be any discussion; it would be purely informative.

Ava Jarvis
10-22-2007, 07:57 AM
Folk like TourdeForce and Dclary don't just vanish.

I'm not really hip on things, but TDF sure didn't just vanish. He got himself vaporized. (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80744)

Again, I'm not really hip, but from what I've seen before, I'm not entirely surprised that dclary is gone.

Does it do good for the unpleasant stuff to get unearthed? I think... yes. It's a public forum. You go disgrace yourself, it gets stuck. Keeping it down to a summary is very kind, in fact.

Ah, the drama.

Cassiopeia
10-22-2007, 07:57 AM
It's understandable. And you're not dense. I just think (my personal opinion) that a public forum on matters of bannination could be troublesome. The gods know I've been wrong many many many times before.
I am not one for public humiliation.

Bartholomew
10-22-2007, 08:03 AM
We don't delete profiles, or accounts. Users may choose to delete their posts.

Even when you think we've deleted a post, we haven't; it's still in the database, it's just set not to show.

So the account owner does it? It's still really hard to figure out what happened.

maestrowork
10-22-2007, 08:04 AM
Also... okay, I may be a little dense, but I usually can't figure out why someone was banned. I'm not the kind of person who will go hunting through locked threads and whatnot. So for me, people just disappear. Which kind of freaks me out.

All you need to do is ask. :)

But I don't think airing that kind of stuff out in public is good for the community, per se. I really don't want to see the mods having to justify their actions or to publicly tell the reason why someone is being banned... it reminds me of public hangings... JMO. But if someone wants to know why so-and-so is not with us anymore, it's just a PM away.

SpookyWriter
10-22-2007, 08:05 AM
I am not one for public humiliation.I'm going to pass on this one. Wait until OP next time, please. :D

kristie911
10-22-2007, 08:05 AM
I'm not for the public humiliation either, I just wish there was a difference between Banned and On a 3 day Vacation.

I'm still wondering if RumpleTumbler is coming back or if he's gone. While we had some differences, I think I'm going to kind of miss him.

SpookyWriter
10-22-2007, 08:06 AM
I'm not for the public humiliation either, I just wish there was a difference between Banned and On a 3 day Vacation.

I'm still wondering if RumpleTumbler is coming back or if he's gone. While we had some differences, I think I'm going to kind of miss him.How can you perm ban a guy named Jack Hanby? That's like banning Marlin Perkins or Mr. Rogers.

kristie911
10-22-2007, 08:09 AM
But if someone wants to know why so-and-so is not with us anymore, it's just a PM away.

Really?

Honestly, I've always been afraid to ask.

I don't want to get back a PM that reads, "MIND YOUR OWN DAMNED BUSINESS!" :)

Cassiopeia
10-22-2007, 08:11 AM
I'm going to pass on this one. Wait until OP next time, please. :D oh dang...I missed it again..

*sigh* another opportunity gone. ;)

reigningcatsndogs
10-22-2007, 08:11 AM
Has anyone ever been banned for something other than being disrespectful or crossing the line? I'm just asking. If you start a thread about someone being banned, it sort of turns into a detention roll-call, with a person's name and 'they crossed the line' or 'they were disrespectful to another member'. I know if I popped an artery and wrote something down that I shouldn't have, and then posted it, and then, an hour later said, 'damn, that was stupid. I deserved to be banned', I really wouldn't want to have the details of what I said recorded AGAIN for me to read over and over again. How many times do you flog the horse? I screwed up, I own it, if someone really cares enough they can find out by taking time on the boards, but I just don't see how it helps anyone. We all know why someone is banned -- not all the juicy details sometimes, but we know.

DamaNegra
10-22-2007, 08:12 AM
I'm not for the public humiliation either, I just wish there was a difference between Banned and On a 3 day Vacation.

I'm still wondering if RumpleTumbler is coming back or if he's gone. While we had some differences, I think I'm going to kind of miss him.
WTF?? RumpleTumbler is gone?? Now I'm lost. What happened?

Cassiopeia
10-22-2007, 08:13 AM
All you need to do is ask. :)

But I don't think airing that kind of stuff out in public is good for the community, per se. I really don't want to see the mods having to justify their actions or to publicly tell the reason why someone is being banned... it reminds me of public hangings... JMO. But if someone wants to know why so-and-so is not with us anymore, it's just a PM away.

I agree with you Ray. I think it could put you guys on the defensive when you shouldn't be and it will create more stir and trouble in the community than it's worth.

kristie911
10-22-2007, 08:17 AM
WTF?? RumpleTumbler is gone?? Now I'm lost. What happened?

I don't know. Wish I did.

SpookyWriter
10-22-2007, 08:20 AM
WTF?? RumpleTumbler is gone?? Now I'm lost. What happened?I wish I knew. I leave, write, visit the world, and come back to a disaster. Errrr....

Medievalist
10-22-2007, 08:22 AM
RumpleTumbler can come back the night of the 23rd.

SpookyWriter
10-22-2007, 08:26 AM
RumpleTumbler can come back the night of the 23rd.Cool.

maestrowork
10-22-2007, 08:26 AM
That is a good question: Is there a way to distinguish a permanent ban from a temporary ban?

MacAllister
10-22-2007, 08:27 AM
Okay -- I'm going to make an arbitrary decision, here. There are things I like about the idea of an easy place for people to see names of members that have been banned -- but it would go out of date pretty darned fast, and I really, really hate the stocks-in-the-public-square feel of the thing. So we're not going to do it.

But if you really want to know, PM me and ask, and I'll explain at least in brief, as much as I can without betraying any confidences.

And yes. We can do something to distinguish between a time out and a ban.

RumpleTumbler and Bird of Prey are both currently on time-outs for a ruckus in P&CE.

brokenfingers
10-22-2007, 08:31 AM
A public thread explaining recent actions like bannings and lockings is a good idea. Otherwise this is what happens.

People don’t know what the hell’s going on so they gossip and come up with theories and all kinds of wild stories make the rounds and people become paranoid and leave en masse over simple misunderstandings. Then people become afraid to speak or be themselkves cuz they don’t know what they can say or do and what they can’t or what’s going on. And then the fun dies and even more people leave. And so it goes.

Just because someone they knew disappeared without a word and now they become fearful. Instead of gaining knowledge on the mores and ways of the community and what it will and not accept – they fear it.

It will let people know without modly reminders exactly what is and what is not permissible behavior. For example:

JoeShmo – banned due to trolling and baiting members in the disco is great thread (with or without links etc), and repeated hateful comments about peole who wear platform shoes.

NancyFancy – 3 Day Timeout due to saying “Neener neener” to a mod.

Any newbie or oldtimer’s gonna know now that that type of behavior won’t be tolerated. Why keep re-inventing the wheel? Why have new streams of people coming in who don’t know what went on six months ago and so make the same mistakes?

You say this is a community. All communities have bulletin boards where they keep members posted as to recent important events.

If a mod doesn’t like their actions being in the spotlight – that’s not good. We expect it of all our leaders – to stand by their decisions and not hide behind doors. With the power comes the responsibility. Either bear it or pass it on.

I can’t stand behind-the-scenes bullshit with people talking about you behind your back where you can’t even defend yourself. I left years ago because of that very fact.

Don’t perpetuate that type of behavior and lose more members. A free and open community where all are aware of the rules and standards, as well as the enforcement of same, can only be a happy and healthy one.

maestrowork
10-22-2007, 08:37 AM
None of the boards I frequented made banning lists and reasons public. I don't see why AW is any different. I really don't like a "public hanging."

Besides, each case is different and it's not like if you do a) and b) you will get banned. I don't know if a public "list" really means anything. And yes, it will be out-dated really fast.

It comes down to: Do you trust us? Do you believe what the mods are doing is good for the community?

Ava Jarvis
10-22-2007, 08:40 AM
You say this is a community. All communities have bulletin boards where they keep members posted as to recent important events.


Depends on what is considered an important recent event.


If a mod doesn’t like their actions being in the spotlight – that’s not good. We expect it of all our leaders – to stand by their decisions and not hide behind doors. With the power comes the responsibility. Either bear it or pass it on.

Do you think all leaders must discuss every single decision point they make? I mean, heck, I don't know if mods are leaders in the traditional sense.

I've been a mod in other places. There are issues that, for the sake of those involved, should not be discussed in public until at least some final resolution is made. Misunderstandings come in all flavors, and it would be irresponsible to break that privacy until all sides are known.

If someone believes that the mods cannot behave unless they are continuously watched by the community, that they are so depraved that they cannot control themselves, then there is an issue there and I am not so sure it rests with the mod.

Not every community has crazy mods. I think it's rare that they do. It's a thankless job that, in the wrong place, can grind your love in something to dust.

Then again, what do I know? I've spent years on both sides of the fence but I suppose my opinion is tainted by my former modship. :shrug:

Cassiopeia
10-22-2007, 08:40 AM
People forget, this isn't a democracy. It's a board with rules and regulations like any other forum I have belonged to.

One very large one adopted the public floggings idea and it's has gone to ruin. People snipe at one another and chaos is the name of the day.

Medievalist
10-22-2007, 08:40 AM
Fingers the people who were banned--they have privacy rights, too.

I know people are curious, but . . . you know a lot of people have a hard time at first. They don't understand that there are standards, or that many many people read what they post, or whatever.

They mess up; they're banned. It's not really anyone else's business.

We'll try to find a compromise, and I suspect Mac may have something in mind already, but ... I wouldn't want members to have the digital equivalent of a scarlet letter. Lots of folk who had a hard time at first and were banned, got the point, and became really really dedicated members, members we value and care about.

There's also the bottom line; ultimately, it's MacAllister's decision. It's not a matter for discussion, at that point.

Ava Jarvis
10-22-2007, 08:42 AM
I've changed my mind---a public "floggings" board would not be a good idea.

PMing mods with questions privately is for the best.

If you don't trust the mods, then you probably can't be happy on those boards.

Well, there is one way for the paranoid to be happy on such boards... to remove all the moderators and reduce them to users except for some rudimentary privileges. Let me tell you: that goes to hell.

MacAllister
10-22-2007, 08:45 AM
I think there's got to be a compromise, though, BF. I usually leave a note in the thread, "So and so will be leaving us forever, now" or "So and so gets to take a weekend away from the boards in the fresh air to reconsider her level of participation" --

But there is a question of having some privacy rights, too -- and when someone emails me and says, "please just quietly ban me, otherwise I'm going to lose my house because I never go to work anymore I just cruise the boards all day...." and they specifically ask me not to say anything, then I have an obligation not to say anything. Now, yeah, I could write "at his/her own request" but still, it's not cool.

And in some situations where there's been very public tension, I think it's honestly bad for the community to see that member banned in public fashion -- regardless of the stated reason, people are going to see it as the mods taking sides.

SpookyWriter
10-22-2007, 08:46 AM
It comes down to: Do you trust us? Do you believe what the mods are doing is good for the community?I have to agree with Ray here. I don't think a list of persons or reasons for banning is warranted or necessary. Although I do find it interesting to know why or how a person got banned, I don't stay awake at night because of it.

There are some clear cases where the person was banned and I could see it coming for weeks or months before it happened. Sometimes the person in question flips out and gets a timeout for their behavior. All this isn't new here, but the spat of locked threads and banishments just reached a new threshold that I couldn't follow, as I'm sure many others felt the same.

But the bottom line remains the same. This site is privately owned, and is intended as a medium for writers to exchange ideas, techniques, and learn to become better writers.

Bad behavior in any community is reason for dismissal. I'm not a role model of perfect behavior, but I do adjust my voice or attitude when asked by a moderator. I don't think this is too much to ask of me or any member who uses a privately owned medium. Right?

MacAllister
10-22-2007, 08:47 AM
What Ava said.

Depends on what is considered an important recent event.



Do you think all leaders must discuss every single decision point they make? I mean, heck, I don't know if mods are leaders in the traditional sense.

I've been a mod in other places. There are issues that, for the sake of those involved, should not be discussed in public until at least some final resolution is made. Misunderstandings come in all flavors, and it would be irresponsible to break that privacy until all sides are known.

If someone believes that the mods cannot behave unless they are continuously watched by the community, that they are so depraved that they cannot control themselves, then there is an issue there and I am not so sure it rests with the mod.

Not every community has crazy mods. I think it's rare that they do. It's a thankless job that, in the wrong place, can grind your love in something to dust.

Then again, what do I know? I've spent years on both sides of the fence but I suppose my opinion is tainted by my former modship. :shrug:And to reiterate:

Okay -- I'm going to make an arbitrary decision, here. There are things I like about the idea of an easy place for people to see names of members that have been banned -- but it would go out of date pretty darned fast, and I really, really hate the stocks-in-the-public-square feel of the thing. So we're not going to do it.

But if you really want to know, PM me and ask, and I'll explain at least in brief, as much as I can without betraying any confidences.

And yes. We can do something to distinguish between a time out and a ban.

RumpleTumbler and Bird of Prey are both currently on time-outs for a ruckus in P&CE.

southernwriter
10-22-2007, 08:52 AM
I don't want to be contrary, but perhaps offer a different perspective, and PLEASE don't read more into this than there is. When I worked with the police, out of respect for the people we dealt with, we did NOT ever discuss who was in trouble for what, or who did whatever to whomever. The people involved knew who they were, the people in trouble knew why, those offended knew what was happening, and for the rest of the world, it wasn't pertinent. Sometimes the person we dealt with was a chronic problem, and then people could assume whatever they wanted. Sometimes it was someone who made a mistake, and they really were not proud of the fact. While posting their names may satisfy curiosity, it can and often is detrimental to the person who made the stupid mistake. It's really makes me think of grade school when the naughty children got their names slapped on the blackboard and had to sit on the stool right underneath it, and all it does is make that person feel even worse.

Here, the rules are pretty simple. If someone is banned, it is something that does not happen lightly (I truly believe this) and it is for breaking the one rule -- they were disrepectful. The details really are of no consequence.

Please do NOT construe this as my comparing in any way, shape or form to legal transgressions, poplice enforcement or anything else. I just think that what happens between the mods and the individuals on this board is just that -- between the mods and the individual.

Just my opinion:Shrug:


I agree. Posting information about why another person is banned is tantamount to public hanging. If a person is friend enough for me to notice they're gone, then I have their e-mail address, and can write to them privately to ask what's going on. Otherwise, it's really none of my business.
What some consider closure, to others is just gossip. It's an opinion, regardless of whose; someone disagreed with the wrong person and was banished. They don't need to be publicly flogged, too.

I am one who thinks a bit of favoritism goes on here. Some writers may not actually call each other jerks and asswipes, but they do dominate and intimidate others by repeating their stance on a subject over and over and over until the other person gives up and walks away, and the bully claims a win by default, if nothing else. If you disagree with what's written in a post, say so once, say so twice, then move on. Anything more than that, and you're the person trying to win the argument by yelling loudest and longest. One good example of this is the "Is there life after death" thread.
(http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75144)
Maybe I should go find and reread the rules because half the time I don't understand what got someone into trouble, and the other half, I wonder why the Mods let something go on as they do.

JLCwrites
10-22-2007, 08:52 AM
I just wanted to add my two cents and say that I appreciate all the work the mods are doing. It is very difficult to determine where the line should be drawn within the gray area of forum relationships. There will always be a few who feel that the line needs to move a little more to the left, or the right. But in the end, it is important to remember that those members who are mods, are only interested in maintaining a balanced, fair, and most importantly fun atmosphere here in AW.

(Ok, maybe that was three cents. :) )

Thanks Again,
-TL

Jean Marie
10-22-2007, 09:50 AM
I don't know what the hell is going on either. I just know that the atmosphere's changed, and some members I loved dearly are leaving. I, too, was considering leaving for good, because this place just doesn't feel the same. I stayed, though, because I'd rather work on whatever's wrong so this place can feel right again.
You leave, and I'll chase your ass all the way to Mexico! I will, you know :Hug2: Yes, that's a threat.


For the record, no. Banning is never done lightly. And any banning but a spammer usually results in me eating antacids for three or four days, and second-guessing myself, and wondering if maybe I'd just tried a little bit harder to get through to the bannee...
Hell, Mac, it worked w/ me. And look how great I turned out :D


I admit that I get freaked out when I see someone has Banned under their name. I have to go back through their posts and see why they're gone. And most of the time, I don't really get it. While it would nice to know why someone was banned, I think if there was just some distinction between Banned and 3 day time out. That way we wouldn't be sitting around wondering if they were coming back.
Sometimes, it does get confusing to try and figure it out. Especially, this close to Halloween...sorry, I just came back from a 6 hour shift at EMS, please understand...



Okay -- I'm going to make an arbitrary decision, here. There are things I like about the idea of an easy place for people to see names of members that have been banned -- but it would go out of date pretty darned fast, and I really, really hate the stocks-in-the-public-square feel of the thing. So we're not going to do it.

But if you really want to know, PM me and ask, and I'll explain at least in brief, as much as I can without betraying any confidences.

And yes. We can do something to distinguish between a time out and a ban.

RumpleTumbler and Bird of Prey are both currently on time-outs for a ruckus in P&CE.
There's always a ruckus in there. As for public hangings and the like, I'm against that.

We need a modicum of confidentiality, for a variety of reasons. If you distinguish between a permanent ban and a time-out, maybe that's sufficient.



Lots of folk who had a hard time at first and were banned, got the point, and became really really dedicated members, members we value and care about.

Ain't I a prime example of that one :D

Well, okay, it took more than 1 banning...sheesh, you guys are such sticklers!

But, you really love me, right!

In all seriousness, Mac, I know it's been a rough couple of days for you and I do want you to know that this is still a tight community. And like Rob said, AW's gone through tough times before, but it's always pulled through. I'm confident it will make it through this one, too w/ you and your mods at the helm.

Some of the forums have been a bit tiresome, well one. But the mods have been working overtime and I've heard a rumor that you're putting something extra in their stockings, this Christmas.

SpookyWriter
10-22-2007, 10:09 AM
Good points, Jean.

Jean Marie
10-22-2007, 10:17 AM
Thanks, Jon. We need to keep this community together, regardless. It's too important to allow it to fall apart, not that that would ever happen.

AW's a family and it's going through a tough time, is all. It will work out. Mac will see to that.

On that note, I'm going to bed. Everyone sleep tight.

Kudra
10-22-2007, 10:20 AM
They mess up; they're banned. It's not really anyone else's business.

I agree with this.

I love this community and have been here for several years now, and can't think about leaving it. I wouldn't know what to do with myself. However, I have an online life outside this community. I have a personal and professional life outside of this community. And I choose to make known my full name and what I do on this community and others.

If I were to be banned here and the information then made public, there would be thousands of other writers who would be privy to such information. They are allowed to form judgments on not only my performance here, but on my life and work outside of this forum.

I think that most of the people who have (or will be) banned are wonderful people usually, but for some reason or the other, lost their temper, didn't get the purpose of the forum, whatever. What happens here should not follow members when they choose to leave. That is not, and has never been, the purpose of AW.

We want to respect them when they're here, we want to respect them when they're gone. Let's not become voyeurs, please.

tjwriter
10-22-2007, 01:36 PM
There are things I want to say, yet I'm not sure how to say.

I do know that things don't feel the same. Frankly, I've been debating whether I should stay or leave. There are several things that weigh upon my mind, some of them come from me and some of them come from here. I still haven't figured out what I want to do.

However, I don't know if I have any ideas to offer as of yet.

Wow, this was a big waste of space. I just don't know what to say to express what I feel. I do know that I was pricing web hosting and features yesterday because I almost feel it would be better to put my energies into that. I just have to recover from the financial drain of buying my husband a great big huge present first.

K1P1
10-22-2007, 02:30 PM
Thanks for the answers, Mac. I agree that there should not be public announcements of banning.

For the people who feel that things are different, I've only popped in and out occasionally for the last few months because I have this book to finish, ya know? But I can say that it seems the same to me. There are ups and downs, some people go too far at times, sometimes it gets too personal. I've found that the best way to cope when it seems unfriendly or boring, is to contribute something. Go say something nice to a newbie, go find a question that you know the answer to and answer it.

What I don't understand about some of the regulars here is why they display such a difference in personality depending on what board they are posting in. People who are perfectly polite and helpful in the writing threads have been so rude and damaging to me in TIO that it's astounded me. I have to wonder, are they just exercising iron control in the writing threads, and their true personality is showing in TIO? Or is it that they think the point of TIO is to be as mean and nasty as possible? I'm perfectly happy in a rough and tumble debate and love disagreement, but the ad hominem attacks make it difficult to have a meaningful argument.

brokenfingers
10-22-2007, 02:44 PM
Sigh....


You guys are no fun.

Unique
10-22-2007, 03:23 PM
late again -

This is more than community to me. This is also my family. You know who you are ....

and yes, you weirdo cousins, I love you too even if you do piss me off sometimes. And no, you aren't invited for Thanksgiving. The last time you flame broiled the turkey and burned down my garage.

Now ... harmony and balance ... fairness, justice, and all those other things that in the end add up to -

Respect your fellow writer and Don't Be a Jerk.

The answer is 42 (or so I was told)

Little Red Barn
10-22-2007, 03:44 PM
What Rob said.

And I believe exactly this time last year, we were experiencing a little of all of this.

Public posting of banned and why, leaves a bitter taste, imo. This simply feels wrong.

It all boils down to respect -- the major rule and the major difference in our community and others.

Without pointing out specifics, this community has done some wonderful things here, over and over, monies have been raised behind the scenes to help others in dire need... And a lot of the good deeds are done quietly...

I think with so many members and the melting pot of such, we do manage to do very well...

rhymegirl
10-22-2007, 03:58 PM
And I know due to recent banninations there's been bad feeling on AW recently.

Agree.


OFG is gone. I am saddened by that as I am sure everyone else is.

Agree. When a long-time member leaves, you KNOW something is really wrong.



I do know that things don't feel the same. Frankly, I've been debating whether I should stay or leave. There are several things that weigh upon my mind, some of them come from me and some of them come from here. I still haven't figured out what I want to do.

Agree.

Celia Cyanide
10-22-2007, 07:44 PM
I have a suggestion...I agree completely that publicly announcing why a member has been banned or voluntarily left is a bad idea.

BUT...if someone is allowed to come back after being banned, do you think that the mods could announce why, and under what conditions? I do think that people who have been banned have the right to keep those reasons private if they choose. But if they want to be allowed to come back and post here, that changes it a bit.

Stew21
10-22-2007, 08:13 PM
In my personal life and here I put up with a great deal from people before I walk away. It is my nature to be tolerant. Just is. When you love a place or love people, you stick it out through tough times. No matter how frustrated, infuriated, pissed off, or generally aggravated I get, if I love someone or someplace enough, I'll ride it out. If I see the potential of what I know it is, I'll wait. Granted, I sometimes see good in people that aren't worth it, they let me down, I learn lessons the hard way. I'd rather do it that way than miss out on what a good thing it could be. The times taking the chance has been worth it, it has been VERY worth it.

It would take a HELL OF A LOT for me to leave here.
Here, like anywhere, there is an ebb and flow. So this week isn't as much fun as last. In a month it will be better than I remembered.
I know the people who run the place are doing their best to make it a fantastic community. Growth doesn't come without pains.
I might choose to lay low for a while now and then, but I'm not really gone.
I hope that's the case of some of the people who have decided to step away.
It is what we make it.

I have no complaints.
I'll just wait for the wind to change. :)

PattiTheWicked
10-22-2007, 08:23 PM
Respect your fellow writer and Don't Be a Jerk

One can assume that if someone is banned, they have violated one of these two guidelines. Why do we need any more information than that? It's not my business WHY someone got banned, unless that someone happens to be me.

I find it odd -- and forgive me if this sounds rude, because it's really not meant to -- that people need to find "closure" when someone else gets banned. If the bannee really wanted you to find closure, they could email you and say, "Hey, I'm gone, here's what happened."

Sure, sometimes there's a poo-storm in one thread or another -- and if you follow along in those threads, you should be able to figure out what caused the bannination in the first place. I know the mods don't take banning lightly, so it should be fairly clear what brought it on.

I do like the idea of someone on a three-day hiatus being tagged with a "time out" instead of "banned", but other than that, I say leave it alone. Things work fine they way they are, and if your curiousity is really getting the best of you, PM a mod.

robeiae
10-22-2007, 08:25 PM
IMO, this place becomes 'less fun' every three or four months. Then it passes.
*nods head in agreement*

Like a kidney stone.

And at the risk of being an insensitive lout (really, is this even a "risk" for me?), I'd like to note--as I have before--that IT'S. A. MESSAGE. BOARD. You're upset? Turn off the computer. Still upset? Tell a mod. That didn't do it? Use ignore.

And for those with perpetual angst over being "censored," grow up.

P.S. Have a nice day. :)

MacAllister
10-22-2007, 08:29 PM
Okay. I've emailed OFG, because I really am heartsick about the fact that a dear friend is hurting -- I have no idea if she'll be back or even answer me, but that's about all I can do about it, at this point.

I think when these things come up, our tendency as human beings is to focus on the one little spot on the apple -- and miss that the rest of the apple is crisp and delicious and pretty amazing, and I don't want to do that. I think the world of this community. I'm constantly amazed at the beauty and generosity and talent of the people here.

And we're doing a lot of awfully important educational stuff for new folks, and we're doing some pretty amazing writing. I love the NaNo time of year, and the Flash Fiction challenges every week, and the regular room Writing Contests; I love that there are enough people who care about Westerns or YA that they'll find each other and ask for a place to talk about and write and crit each other. (Yes, that means we're adding a YA SYW room.)

Most of all, I love that when something comes up, we can talk about it like a community, so that I know better what you guys want -- which lets me at least try to be a responsive town manager.

Stew21
10-22-2007, 08:29 PM
You could even make the prediction that we will be at each other's throats for a while, people will post threads saying it sucks here, a couple of people will flounce and then some jackass will come along, we will all feel insulted as a group. We will defend each other, make fun of the person, and feel all better because we bonded again.

Isn't that what happens every quarter?

robeiae
10-22-2007, 08:30 PM
In college, it happened every night...

Celia Cyanide
10-22-2007, 08:33 PM
I do like the idea of someone on a three-day hiatus being tagged with a "time out" instead of "banned", but other than that, I say leave it alone.

Isn't that what the "Taking A Short Break" thing was supposed to be used for? I'm not sure why it is used sometimes and not others.

SpookyWriter
10-22-2007, 08:43 PM
In college, it happened every night...That's another reason why education is so important. Some of out greatest leaders have taken the college experience to heart.

SpookyWriter
10-22-2007, 08:43 PM
Isn't that what the "Taking A Short Break" thing was supposed to be used for? I'm not sure why it is used sometimes and not others.Maybe it's broken?

reigningcatsndogs
10-22-2007, 08:47 PM
I think when these things come up, our tendency as human beings is to focus on the one little spot on the apple -- and miss that the rest of the apple is crisp and delicious and pretty amazing, and I don't want to do that. I think the world of this community. I'm constantly amazed at the beauty and generosity and talent of the people here.



Okay, Mac, I laughed when I read this -- my son is an apple fanatic, but when he was little he wouldn't touch an apple with even the tiniest spot on them. I told him those are the ones with the butterfly kisses and so they are the really special ones. He still looks for a spot on an apple.

This is an amazing place, with amazing people, and the help it provides in so many ways for so many people is truly incalculable. It is a good thing you do, so don't ever forget that (please?) !

Azure Skye
10-22-2007, 08:50 PM
Hmmm... I just got back from taking a break for some reasons others have talked about in this thread. Interesting.

I'm really lost about what's going on here now but I've been reading and trying to play catch-up. Intriguing.

I need to think it over some more before I decide if I should put my two cents in or just let things play out. And they usually do play out on their own.

Ok, that was my useless post for the hour. I have three more minutes before I make another. :) (Oops, my computer clock is off.)

III
10-22-2007, 09:20 PM
Oh I get it. Start this thread at night so I won't notice it until the grown-ups have had a chance to "reasonably discuss the issue". Real classy. Wait till the kids go to bed.

Here's my late, rehashed input:

• Distinguish between permanent and temporary bans.
• List members who have been permanently banned to avoid general confusion, but don’t list why.
• More people should start using the sarcastic font (a superscript “s” before and after sarcastic statements). The only time I really see it used is when someone says "sGood idea, Jays".
• Keep cracking down on the incessant bickering. A little snipping doesn't seem to be a problem, but a few bad apples spoil the baby ... or skin the cat ... a few bad apples do something more substantial. You know what I mean.

I guess every moderated forum does have its unique taboos and I've stumbled across a few of AW's, but it was usually addressed in a mature way by a Mod. Folks who get permanently banned have to be single-mindedly determined to get banned. As much as we might miss them, it was their choice.

Like most of you, I've thought about flouncing from time to time, but it's the relationships that keep me here. Veterans like Trish who made me feel welcome right from the start. Posters like Gaffer and Rob who've broadened my thinking. And the dozens of you who spark my intellect and encourage my stupid jokes. You make it easier to swallow the occasional suppository.

Dunkleman out.

Jean Marie
10-22-2007, 09:21 PM
late again -

This is more than community to me. This is also my family. You know who you are ....

and yes, you weirdo cousins, I love you too even if you do piss me off sometimes. And no, you aren't invited for Thanksgiving. The last time you flame broiled the turkey and burned down my garage.

Now ... harmony and balance ... fairness, justice, and all those other things that in the end add up to -


Same for me, it's a family.

As for the fire, that was Haggis and Rllgthunder. They were playing darts, I was playing, too. It only got out of hand when they put these flame thingies on the darts. They thought it would look cool w/ the lights off...don't ask...only, Haggis, or was it RT who missed the board...


Okay. I've emailed OFG, because I really am heartsick about the fact that a dear friend is hurting -- I have no idea if she'll be back or even answer me, but that's about all I can do about it, at this point.
You're doing your best, Mac. I know that and so does everyone else. Deep down, so does OFG :Hug2:


I'm constantly amazed at the beauty and generosity and talent of the people here.
Me, too.


Most of all, I love that when something comes up, we can talk about it like a community, so that I know better what you guys want -- which lets me at least try to be a responsive town manager.
If we're going to continue, we should be able to talk about things. 'Sides, we're adults. I, for one, appreciate that you've opened this thread for exactly this opportunity. It shows how much you do care about all of us.

There have been times when I haven't understood the "behind the scenes" line. And a few times that it's frustrated me, only because I didn't know what was going on. I had to trust in the process, which is not my strong suit. I did find, however, that things do work out, if I give it time. Okay, patience isn't necessarily my strong suit, either. But, I'm learning.

The point is, I wish that more of you who're on the fence as to whether or not you want to hang out here, would put a bit more faith in Mac and her abilities. God knows I have, and wouldn't have it any other way.


Isn't that what the "Taking A Short Break" thing was supposed to be used for? I'm not sure why it is used sometimes and not others.
I'd like to see this brought back, if possible. It makes it much more clear, as opposed to being banned. I think if a person is banned, that should be reserved for someone who's banned permanently. If they're on a 3 day, then, use TAB. If it's longer, then say, "On Vacation." Or, something along those lines.

maestrowork
10-22-2007, 09:24 PM
• Distinguish between permanent and temporary bans.
• List members who have been permanently banned to avoid general confusion, but don’t list why.
• More people should start using the sarcastic font (a superscript “s” before and after sarcastic statements). The only time I really see it used is when someone says "sGood idea, Jays".
• Keep cracking down on the incessant bickering. A little snipping doesn't seem to be a problem, but a few bad apples spoil the baby ... or skin the cat ... a few bad apples do something more substantial. You know what I mean.


Good idea, JayS.

robeiae
10-22-2007, 09:29 PM
sRay is a valued member of the community.s

maestrowork
10-22-2007, 09:31 PM
Rob is evil incarnate.

Susie
10-22-2007, 09:32 PM
I love you guys, and Mac and all the mods. do a terrific job. I've had a problem with one or two members, but out of all the members here, that's not a bad percentage. I always say live and let live and I will try and avoid those I can't get along with and love those that I can. Seems to work well and sure hope OFG will return and things will be worked out aok.

BenPanced
10-22-2007, 09:39 PM
Of course, another board I'm on has similar problems but when the mod does his job, people cry CENSORSHIP! and BIG BROTHER STATE!

Can't win for losing.

Shades of Humanity
10-22-2007, 09:41 PM
Do you what's starting to chap me? I'm reading through an interesting discussion, then Macallister drops in "And I think we'll end this thread here"

LOCKED.

Wth? Why stop threads? If people don't want to read or respond, then they don't have to. Why lock the thread? I feel like this forum is being run by an elementary school teacher.

Ziljon
10-22-2007, 09:42 PM
I don't get it. We're in cyberspace, no one is really here. I never thought it was necessary to announce my plans; whether or not I was going on vacation, was sick, or was taking a break from posting for whatever reason.

I like the fact that I recognize certain names and avatars, I even sometimes wish this was somehow on the radio and I could listen in to the conversation while I was driving, but I also like the fact that I'm free to pop in and out unnoticed when it suits me.

I'm all for respecting one another and controlling tempers, but I don't get this need to know where everyone is or why so-and-so was banned.

In my opinion, the board is still just as great as it was when I joined.

C.bronco
10-22-2007, 09:49 PM
I like having ornery people around. I hate to see anyone banninated with the exception of spammers or obvious trolls. Ole' Girl has left? That's sad because she has a quick wit. Who else is gone?

Duncan J Macdonald
10-22-2007, 09:53 PM
Do you what's starting to chap me? I'm reading through an interesting discussion, then Macallister drops in "And I think we'll end this thread here"

LOCKED.

Wth? Why stop threads? If people don't want to read or respond, then they don't have to. Why lock the thread? I've yet to see a locked thread where the Moderator responsible for the locking didn't state exactly why they felt it necessary. My usual regret is that I got there after the locking took place -- dang this thing called work!


I feel like this forum is being run by an elementary school teacher.
IMAO, that happens when the posters area acting like elementary school students.

Someone upthread -- I believe Jean Marie -- said the we're adults here. While I do think that she needs to caveat that assumption, the underlying meaning is clear.

MacAllister
10-22-2007, 09:54 PM
Rich is gone. Tourdeforce is gone, and dclary is gone.

I'm going to commute the time-outs given the last couple of days.

SpookyWriter
10-22-2007, 09:58 PM
Rich is gone. Tourdeforce is gone, and dclary is gone.

I'm going to commute the time-outs given the last couple of days.I thought Rich was on a timeout and Pen was gone. Now I'm confused again.

MacAllister
10-22-2007, 10:00 PM
That's stuff happening behind the scenes that I'm not going to go into, Spooky. Jen (OFG) was never banned or time-outed. She took a step back for her own reasons.

C.bronco
10-22-2007, 10:01 PM
:( Now I'm really bummed.

III
10-22-2007, 10:02 PM
Mac, can you also let us know if Ray gets bitten by that Brown Recluse spider and can't post?

Jean Marie
10-22-2007, 10:10 PM
IMAO, that happens when the posters area acting like elementary school students.

Someone upthread -- I believe Jean Marie -- said the we're adults here. While I do think that she needs to caveat that assumption, the underlying meaning is clear.
Quite right, Duncan, I'm only on my second cup of coffee...ridiculously late night, last night, early am doc's appt...stitch removal, etc.

'Tis the posters who act like elementary school children, at times, even though we're adults, here.

I hope that clarifies things.

SpookyWriter
10-22-2007, 10:13 PM
That's stuff happening behind the scenes that I'm not going to go into, Spooky. Jen (OFG) was never banned or time-outed. She took a step back for her own reasons.No problemo. I'm not much of a scene chaser.

Don't say it, Rob.

moth
10-22-2007, 10:17 PM
I'm one of the ones who had no clue of any ruckus or brouhaha. This is all news to me. This place feels exactly the same to me as always -- but then again that's because all I ever look at is the 500 words/day threads in the MTS forum, SYW, novels, writing YA, and ask the agent.

I do want to look at other areas of the site (and sometimes I peek, like now ;) ), but usually I don't -- mostly because I'm a little intimidated. Even OP intimidates me. The in-jokes fly too fast sometimes, and I feel like I'd be intruding if I posted in a thread I enjoyed reading. I keep telling myself that's stupid, you're not intruding, post anywhere you want honey!, but I still feel -- well now I'm digressing.

I mod at another forum, and I have to salute Mac and all the mods here. The forum I mod at is much smaller than here, and I can't imagine the job of modding here. All the concerns about member rights, privacy concerns, making things the best they can be for everybody, fairness, fine lines, striking balance -- all those are even more magnified here. Salute and hats off to the whole Squad. You all do a great job, you all seem to work well together, and THANK YOU for your dedication. The care and concern you have for your members is one of the reasons I love it here so much.

Sheryl Nantus
10-22-2007, 10:24 PM
Personally, I'd toss the Politics board out. Everyone seems to just post inflammatory links and then sit back and snipe at the responses. There's no real discussion; just snarling back and forth between people who you *know* aren't going to change the minds. And if you post a link, why not post your opinion instead of just the link?

I thought this was a *writing* board, after all. The mods have better things to do than close threads or monitor threads about politics and the usual suspects whining that things should change/won't change/are sure gonna change as soon as *** happens or *** gets into/out of office. It's not going to get any better with the American elections still a year away.

Let AW be at least the one place where politics isn't discussed ad nauseum. There are plenty of other places for that. Let's be about WRITING.

'nuff said.

Cassiopeia
10-22-2007, 10:28 PM
I can see that it has a purpose. After all, writers do write about politics. I recommend that TIO become it's own category and Politics be put in there. This way people know when they step in there they are stepping OFF of the board.

jodiodi
10-22-2007, 10:29 PM
I second Cassiopeia's suggestion. Put P&CE in TIO. That's where it seems to belong.

robeiae
10-22-2007, 10:35 PM
I can see that it has a purpose. After all, writers do write about politics. I recommend that TIO become it's own category and Politics be put in there. This way people know when they step in there they are stepping OFF of the board.


I second Cassiopeia's suggestion. Put P&CE in TIO. That's where it seems to belong.If you already know what is in P&CE, then what's the point? There are stickies in that forum that explain a great deal and offer some warnings about conduct. People that want to ignore such do so at their own peril, as is clearly evident from some of the bannings.

But not all of the bannings--when there's an explosion elsewhere, it tends to be bigger and far worse, imo.

reigningcatsndogs
10-22-2007, 10:35 PM
Although I don't post in PC&E, or at least very rarely, I always try to read what is there. I don't agree with some of the posts, but I always learn from many of them. If we don't see diverse opinions, we can never broaden our own minds, and there are always some very good observations and points made there that should be considered, especially if they don't totally agree with the position. I learn a lot from it, including being more tolerant of other people's beliefs and opinions.

moth
10-22-2007, 10:40 PM
I feel for the mods, having to balance the main focus of AW WC (writing) with the need for off-topic outlets. We have that issue at my other forum but on a much much smaller scale. If P&CE is as (what's the word I'm looking for) incendiary as it's sounding, maybe putting it as a subforum in TIO is a good idea.

tjwriter
10-22-2007, 10:45 PM
P&CE did originate as a subforum of TIO. It moved when the pop culture thing arrived to be the holder of those things modern. In all reality, people are responsible for what they post and where they post it. Each area of the board has it's own feel, and often stickies to provide some general guidelines.

Each poster is responsible for knowing what area they are in and what the appropriate and inappropriate actions are. If they have confusion, that's what the Moderateers are for, but you are ultimately responsible for your own actions.

I feel P&CE has its place in the writing world, and it invites good, thinking discussion when people don't abuse it. I've seen some pretty hot topics have cool, calm and rational discussions there.

MacAllister
10-22-2007, 10:48 PM
P&CE did originate as a subforum of TIO. It moved when the pop culture thing arrived to be the holder of those things modern. In all reality, people are responsible for what they post and where they post it. Each area of the board has it's own feel, and often stickies to provide some general guidelines.

Each poster is responsible for knowing what area they are in and what the appropriate and inappropriate actions are. If they have confusion, that's what the Moderateers are for, but you are ultimately responsible for your own actions.

I feel P&CE has its place in the writing world, and it invites good, thinking discussion when people don't abuse it. I've seen some pretty hot topics have cool, calm and rational discussions there.

This very closely matches my own thinking on the matter, TJWriter, thank you. :)

We're keeping it -- and I expect it's going to stay in Pop Culture. I'm thinking about closing it for a couple of days to do some re-tooling, and making sure everyone posting there realizes that we're going forward with a zero-tolerance policy for personal attacks.

Soccer Mom
10-22-2007, 10:49 PM
Oh please don't put P&CE back in with TIO!

:flees thread just in case:

ETA: phew! cross-post. :slowly returns:

Jean Marie
10-22-2007, 10:53 PM
If I recall, correctly, P&CE did start out in TIO. Then, it was broken out to where it is, now.

Yes, it's inflammatory. And yes, there's a lot of link flinging, and the like. And some unsubstantiated claims, and nonsense. And on a good day, it's near impossible to read between the lines to glean knowledge, but it's a worthwhile forum, on the whole. You just have to know who to listen to and who to ignore. After a couple of reads, it's fairly obvious who's in the know and *who* isn't.

moth
10-22-2007, 10:53 PM
P&CE did originate as a subforum of TIO. It moved when the pop culture thing arrived to be the holder of those things modern.
:e2smack: D'oh, shows what I know. ;)

mscelina
10-22-2007, 10:58 PM
Politics is a polarizing issue at the best of times and completely irrational at the worst. 'Tis why I got a pol sci degree after all. And I have avoided the Politics thread fervently from my first day at AW. All I could see was a big red flag that read as follows:

Celina if you post here you'll be banned in two days.

It serves an extremely valuable purpose, however. It would be detrimental (I think) to lose that outlet.

Cassiopeia
10-22-2007, 10:59 PM
I am only concerned with the impression it might give those visiting the board. TIO is not visible to the unregistered user.

Maryn
10-22-2007, 11:01 PM
mscelina, if you don't fix those tags and make your text red [Nice work!], I'm going to have to take drastic measures.

Maryn, hoping to lighten things up a wee bit

III
10-22-2007, 11:03 PM
If PC&E got moved to TIO would we see Rob and Haskins moved back down to like 200 posts? Because that would be just adorable!

Jean Marie
10-22-2007, 11:12 PM
Yeah, tj said it best...I'm still waking up. 'Course, by the time I do, it will be time to go to bed, again.

On the other hand, just spoke to my mom, and the fires are near her, in Northern San Diego County. Not good. She lives in a gated community and called the homeowner's association, and told them to turn all the sprinklers on, to wet the grounds.

GO MA!! Yeah, they listen to Rose Mary :)

maestrowork
10-22-2007, 11:22 PM
It's a really big board... there's something for everyone.

tjwriter
10-22-2007, 11:29 PM
This very closely matches my own thinking on the matter, TJWriter, thank you. :)


Yeah, tj said it best...I'm still waking up. 'Course, by the time I do, it will be time to go to bed, again.

I manage to say something intelligent from time-to-time. :)

That and I'm pretty handy at watching and understanding group dynamics. I didn't study it, but perhaps I should have.

AnneMarble
10-22-2007, 11:48 PM
Oh please don't put P&CE back in with TIO!
I agree and add my own begging. :Hail:

I like the way having a separate P&CE board gives me a good place to insert links to news stories now and then. Many of the links I insert aren't really TIO material but more "Current Events" material -- for example, in memorium posts, weird news (woman accidentally sets fire to foot), that sort of thing. (I avoid anything about the war, Bush, etc. :tongue)

Those articles are a starting point for discussion, but they aren't appropriate for Office Party. I used to feel really weird placing posts such as "RIP to Some Great Humanitarian We All Love" in Office Party. Also, at that time, there was often a lot of confusion and controversy about there news posts went -- does it go in TIO or Office Party? I'm glad there's another place to put that sort of thing.

Inky
10-22-2007, 11:53 PM
*looks around*

Ooookay...so...um...er...I'm probably next.

Actually, as a military wife, and author, my life if rather isolated. Moving from Germany to Turkey this past summer, while life was chaotic, to say the least, it was nice to be able to boot up laptop at cafe', and touch base with my AW buddies. There are a few of us that have grown close enough that we share day-to-day issues with family and self as if sipping tea right across from one another.
But, yeah, there's been a different atmosphere here lately.
Me? I stay out of those threads containing uber controversy. I've entered a few times, been chewed up, and ran screaming.
Oookay...so Jenna and Mac could point you to a thread where I actually took a stand and blew my top...it was the red, white, and blue running through me.
Since then, I prefer threads that make me laugh, or actually teach me something, or just connect me with fellow writers carving out a niche for themselves in this crazy business of words.

Because I stay out of those battle threads, I feel that I miss much of the chaos creating these issues; however, I always end up in the wrong place at the wrong time, and can't help but wonder if I'll say the wrong thing and my time here will be smashed into a thousand irreversible pieces.
I'm thinking a hiatus would be good right about now.

ciao

melaniehoo
10-22-2007, 11:54 PM
Although I'm faily new here I do know a little of what happened last week, and while I'm sad to see certain people go, they chose to violate the rules. If I'd been paying attention & could've stepped in, PM'd or something to say calm down, I would've but what's done is done.

I would be lost without this site. I picked up writing again a couple months ago after 15 years of doing other things and, as some of you know, I moved to a new country around that same time. New country, no friends, getting very depressed, when my cousin told me about this site. Since joining in August I'm finally back to my normal self - my husband has noticed a change in me, even my mother over the phone - all because of the community here at AW.

I love that there's hundreds of intelligent, funny, well-spoken people willing to have a conversation about whatever is posted. I've encountered people that I don't like, who irritate me beyond comprehension, so I ignore their threads or posts. After reading this thread I will also try to remember to notify a mod rather than watching it escalate.

I'm a long way from knowing as much about writing as most of the people here, but I truly appreciate the time and effort spent on helping their fellow writers. And thanks for to the mods for doing the dirty work.

Now I'll go enjoy my warm fuzzies.

Jaycinth
10-22-2007, 11:54 PM
I'd written out a long post, but my computer decided I shouldn't post it.

It boiled down to:

TIO was hiddden to anyone not signed in to help prevent trolls.

When P&CE was broken off, it became vivible to the trolls we were trying to discourage.

Trolls tend to incite normal fun-loving writers into flame battles, and then leave.

POO on trolls.

However, P&CE is necessary, after all, some people write about politics and events past, present and future, therefore a forum is needed.

I think it should be hidden to keep down the trolls, since the EPA won't legalize polyurethane for use on them seeing as they are partially sapient.

HUGS!!!!!

MacAllister
10-23-2007, 12:00 AM
We can throw some camouflage net over the room -- that's not hard to do.

SpookyWriter
10-23-2007, 12:13 AM
We can throw some camouflage net over the room -- that's not hard to do.Or you can make infinitygoddess a mod for a couple days. That's be fuunnnyyy...and worth the price of admission.

Shadow_Ferret
10-23-2007, 12:22 AM
Wait. What? OFG is gone?

I didn't even notice.

*goes back to being oblivious*

Tiger
10-23-2007, 12:27 AM
What?! Someone's been banned?!

...Just kidding.

My $.02... and only MINE:

This is a writer's hangout and a virtual community. Many of contributors make their living by arranging thoughts and ideas, 'just so,' and presenting subjects (read: themselves) in ways designed to be effective and not necessarily accurate.

People sort of get to know each other here, but unless there are a lot of offline meetings going on, nobody really knows anyone else.

I realize that this brings up philosophical chunks to this discussion--to which people will disagree--but it is my belief that letting an online discussion so bend one out of shape that he feels he must insult, disparage, or threaten his way out of it, is a waste of energy.

Many of us post under screen names, or otherwise insulate ourselves from any danger of actual scrutiny so, really, what damage is being done?

Oh, I've let people here get to me--as surely as I've myself "gotten." But, at the end of the day, what I take away from AW is exercise, information about the craft and business of writing, and the opportunity to view the styles and opinions of very gifted peers. That's all. It's extremely valuable, but that's all.

P&CE, is a great place to see how news gets interpreted and reported. What gets accomplished there, by me, effects no one but me.

jennifer75
10-23-2007, 12:43 AM
cough. cough. ahem. I'm going to behave now. I had time out. I feel so naughty.

MacAllister
10-23-2007, 12:45 AM
Wait'll you see the new Time-Out user-title. It says: I'm in a Time-Out For My Sins

which is, y'know, how people will know yer not banned forever.

maestrowork
10-23-2007, 12:48 AM
I'm in a Time-Out For My Sins


ooooh, that sounds so much better than Chocolate Pants.

kristie911
10-23-2007, 12:51 AM
Excellent, Mac. Thanks! :)

I think being able to tell the difference between Banned and Time out will be a big help. People tend to panic when they see people being banned, but a time out isn't as bad...at least we know they'll be back. :D

That's why you're in charge...cuz you rock! :)

Tiger
10-23-2007, 12:51 AM
Wait'll you see the new Time-Out user-title. It says: I'm in a Time-Out For My Sins

which is, y'know, how people will know yer not banned forever.

I sure as hell ain't gonna cast the first stone...

sneakers145
10-23-2007, 12:54 AM
If I post something on the internet, I expect that people will agree/disagree/rip me to shreds. That's what happens when you post your opinion in cyberspace. I expect it. If I'm looking for support only, I call my friends and family. ;) If I want brutal honesty, I post publicly.

That said, I do try to take the ideas presented and discuss those. I don't look at WHO posted. I look at the idea. I think of the post as a ball tossed into a room. The idea gets bounced around, added to, all angles discussed. It's no longer necessarily about ME and my OPINION. I like the debate, the discussion. I don't take dissenters opinions personally. Many times I learn something new, something I hadn't considered, etc.

As long as there is no personal attacks (You are a MORON! or worse) etc. I think debate is healthy, I like forming coherent posts that make my point, etc. I don't think debates should be moderated as long as posters are sticking to ideas presented and not personal attacks.

I missed most of what went on (posts had been deleted by the time I got here) and I can only assume that the posters went overboard (those that have been banned). I'd hope that dissenting opinions politely and eloquently written would not be vaporized so long as the post is about ideas, not personal.

MacAllister
10-23-2007, 12:55 AM
Anyone wanna try it out, just so's we can all see?

SpookyWriter
10-23-2007, 12:55 AM
ooooh, that smells so much better than my Chocolate Pants.:Thumbs:

SpookyWriter
10-23-2007, 12:56 AM
Anyone wanna try it out, just so's we can all see?So where did everyone run off too?

MacAllister
10-23-2007, 12:59 AM
They all got awfully quiet....

I'd lift it again right away, of course. It's just for the good of science.

III
10-23-2007, 01:01 AM
They all got awfully quiet....

I'd lift it again right away, of course. It's just for the good of science.

OH! ME!!! ME!!!

MidnightMuse
10-23-2007, 01:01 AM
Go ahead, hit me, baby. I've been meaning to toddle off anyhoodle :D

MacAllister
10-23-2007, 01:03 AM
Hah. I got III. We're not letting you go anywhere, MM. I'm already workin' overtime emailing dear friends who think their lives are better spent, y'know, writing or some such silliness.

If you hit refresh, you should see a different message than "banned" under his user name.

Shady Lane
10-23-2007, 01:05 AM
Hate to ruin the mood...but I feel like if I don't say this now, I'll never have the guts to.

Don't worry. It's not that bad.

Really, the only thing that bugs me about AW is when threads get deleted. I don't mind locked ones; at least the information is still there and accessible. But when dramatic threads are deleted, I feel like it just accentuates the split I already see in AW--between the people who have all the info and the people who don't.

I totally understand deleting threads when the OP asks, of course, but otherwise...I think it's more harm than good to remove them from public view, with some very rare exceptions.

Okay. That's it. Please don't hate me.

scarletpeaches
10-23-2007, 01:07 AM
I just tried to PM III. :( I didn't realise what was going on here. Can you bring him back, pretty please? :cry:

Celia Cyanide
10-23-2007, 01:07 AM
Personally, I'd toss the Politics board out...I thought this was a *writing* board, after all.

Can I just ask why there seem to be so many people against the PC & E board because, "this is a writing forum"? Sheryl is not the first one to say this. Nobody comes out against the Bargains Board, the Celine Dion board, the Conquering Challenges Board, The Movies and TV Board, The Tech Help Board, Office Party or TIO for the same reason. All of those can have as much or as little to do with writing as PC & E. And heated arguements can happen anywhere. I've seen some of the biggest blow ups occur in the novel writing forum.

MacAllister
10-23-2007, 01:08 AM
Shady, no one is going to hate you, and that's exactly what this thread is for. :) I can't promise that threads won't be deleted anymore, but I can tell you that it's sort of a constant debate for all of us with the extra buttons, too.

There are various reasons for deleting threads and posts -- mostly it has to do with trying to spare feelings. But I can definitely see how it's frustrating for members, as well.

AnneMarble
10-23-2007, 01:09 AM
If I post something on the internet, I expect that people will agree/disagree/rip me to shreds. That's what happens when you post your opinion in cyberspace. I expect it.
One of my first posts on usenet (back when my account still worked) was about that public official who got in trouble for saying "niggardly." Someone corrected one or two of the details in my post. I learned a lesson from that. Always try to check the news story before posting about something. :D

Ahh, usenet. If you think TIO and P&CE is rough, try posting on usenet. I sorta miss it. :cry: But it was nuts and makes me appreciate this place. At least AW has mods. Usenet very rarely does, and having no mods ruined most of the groups I visited. Even the ones that should be civil, such as fiction groups and fan groups. On one group, I once got accused of being a sock puppet for a well known horror/fantasy writer/editor who sometimes posted on the group. :eek: Never mind that we were on opposite coasts and could not have been using the same ISP without a realllly long phone cord. He thought I had created a blog, a fully featured writing site, and an extensive writing forum just to pull off this "disguise." It was silly, annoying, surreal, and almost funny. :tongue And if that had happened here, the accusing poster would have been dealt with. Instead, he's still in that other group, corrupting it.


If I'm looking for support only, I call my friends and family. ;) If I want brutal honesty, I post publicly.
Actually, if I'm looking for support, I'll call some of my family members. ;)

MacAllister
10-23-2007, 01:10 AM
Okay, III is restored to our collective bosom.

errr....

let me rephrase that....

Shady Lane
10-23-2007, 01:10 AM
Okay, nifty. I'll take the sack off my head now.

The thing is, the only other forum I've ever been involved in was largely teenagers--mods included. So the rules about what you could/could not say were SUPER strict--and ended up disintegrating because the mods deleted threads as soon as they got a little risque.

Bubastes
10-23-2007, 01:13 AM
Ahh, usenet. If you think TIO and P&CE is rough, try posting on usenet. I sorta miss it. :cry: But it was nuts and makes me appreciate this place. At least AW has mods. Usenet very rarely does, and having no mods ruined most of the groups I visited. Even the ones that should be civil, such as fiction groups and fan groups.


Oh yes. I really appreciate the mods here on AW after earning my battle scars on other boards. One crazy one I used to read is, of all places, The Juggle Blog hosted by The Wall Street Journal. You'd think that WSJ readers would be more civilized, but the comments portion of that blog was one big train wreck of judgmental nastiness. The comments drowned out any useful information on that site.

Give me mods any day. I lurve it here on AW.

tjwriter
10-23-2007, 01:13 AM
It is good to have you back, Mac. Seems like you were away for awhile. I know that you've been here some, but your presence has been missed.

I really do like this place. There's a ton of information <insert geeky squeal here> and really cool people to talk to. And I enjoy listening. It's part of the reason I lurk. I just observe conversations, which you can tell by my post count. (One thousand, here I come, Baby!) It is one of my favorite places to be. Perhaps things will tidy up here soon and feel normal again.

III
10-23-2007, 01:14 AM
Okay, III is restored to our collective bosom.

errr....

let me rephrase that....

That was horrific. I kept trying to log in and it wouldn't let me and I just had this feeling that SP was trying to PM me and everyone was laughing and pointing at me.

Do it again!

(just kidding. it sucked.)

Sunkissed27f
10-23-2007, 01:16 AM
Anyone wanna try it out, just so's we can all see?

If I play guinea pig.....can I be back in 5 minutes time?

I am curious......so it killed the cat but the answers brought it back.

So says my 7 year old!!

brokenfingers
10-23-2007, 01:17 AM
Give us the scoop, III.

Did they throw a sack over your head and whisk you away? Did they take you to another board with looser rules where they could disrespect you to their hearts content?

Cmon! We need to know!

MacAllister
10-23-2007, 01:19 AM
If I play guinea pig.....can I be back in 5 minutes time?

I am curious......so it killed the cat but the answers brought it back.

So says my 7 year old!!
Sunkissed, we just did it to III -- but we'll do it again, for the sake of anyone who missed it. :)

See you in a few minutes!

MacAllister
10-23-2007, 01:21 AM
Okey doke -- Sunkissed's user-title should reflect her status as being in Time Out.

going....going....

tjwriter
10-23-2007, 01:21 AM
Sunkissed, we just did it to III -- but we'll do it again, for the sake of anyone who missed it. :)

See you in a few minutes!

You know people are going to be begging to get banned all night now, right? :D

MacAllister
10-23-2007, 01:23 AM
It's sorta odd, actually. :) No accounting for some folks...

scarletpeaches
10-23-2007, 01:23 AM
That was horrific. I kept trying to log in and it wouldn't let me and I just had this feeling that SP was trying to PM me and everyone was laughing and pointing at me.

Do it again!

(just kidding. it sucked.)

I did and you wasn't there and it was horrible and I did cry. :cry:

MacAllister
10-23-2007, 01:24 AM
Sunkissed27f
In Time-Out For My Sins

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Decatur, Alabama
Posts: 429

_________________________

(and I've restored poor Sunkissed...)

Sunkissed27f
10-23-2007, 01:24 AM
Swew scary!!!

ETA: I think the message you see is the scariest!!

AnneMarble
10-23-2007, 01:24 AM
Oh yes. I really appreciate the mods here on AW after earning my battle scars on other boards. One crazy one I used to read is, of all places, The Juggle Blog hosted by The Wall Street Journal. I kid you not, the comments portion of that blog was one big train wreck of judgmental nastiness.
Wow, that's weird. The WSJ isn't the place I'd associate with blog nastiness.


Give me mods any day. I lurve it here on AW.
Moderating a mailing list also helped me appreciate mods. :) I have a pretty laissez-faire moderating attitude. I keep most of the "nagging" off list and keep my tone relaxed, and I don't nag people often unless they annoy people with too many promotional posts. Yet once in a while, you can still expect someone to complain that there are too many rules. :rolleyes:

Oh, and so that you can see what usenet can be like, here is that post I mentioned earlier (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.books.ghost-fiction/browse_thread/thread/4a1c8464db533de8/cc9fdb471c02e54f?lnk=st&q=#cc9fdb471c02e54f). Oh and this one (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.books.ghost-fiction/msg/acbacf498bbb2ce3). It's amazing what you can be accused of if you dare post on-topic discussion questions. (Or rather, in his words, I kept asking "perpetually setting irritating and arrogant questions.") :ROFL: Luckily I had friends who persuaded him that I was really myself, but I don't think he was ever convinced. And before long, I gave up on the group, visiting it only once in a blue moon. :cry:Thank God for groups with mods. (And thank God for YahooGroups because some of the long-time members of that group set up their own havens. :D)

jennifer75
10-23-2007, 01:26 AM
Ok, wait, you guys want to be banned??? Because you want to see what it's like?

You want the truth???

You can't handle the truth!!!

It's horrible! Never have I wanted something so bad and couldn't have it as I did with these horrifyingly addictive threads!

I'm willing to never utter the B word again if it means happily ever after for me in AW.

Haggis
10-23-2007, 01:26 AM
That Sunkissed. Always been a troublemaker, that one.

;)

JennaGlatzer
10-23-2007, 01:28 AM
It's horrible! Never have I wanted something so bad and couldn't have it as I did with these horrifyingly addictive threads!

LOL!!

Welcome back, Jennifer.

scarletpeaches
10-23-2007, 01:29 AM
I've been banned once but it was a month-long self-bannination, so that doesn't count. :D

JennaGlatzer
10-23-2007, 01:30 AM
Show-off.

Sunkissed27f
10-23-2007, 01:30 AM
That Sunkissed. Always been a troublemaker, that one.

;)
I iz not!

I iz just havinz some LOLz!

scarletpeaches
10-23-2007, 01:30 AM
Show-off.

Me? How VERY dare you!

MacAllister
10-23-2007, 01:32 AM
You should try it, Jenna -- it's fun. If we wait just a minute, someone else will volunteer...

scarletpeaches
10-23-2007, 01:33 AM
Oh go on then, ban me for 15 minutes. That'll give me the chance to get my floors mopped and load the washer.

*tsk*

The things I do for the love of Mac...

Voyager
10-23-2007, 01:33 AM
I'll take one for the team. I have to go to the bathroom anyway.

scarletpeaches
10-23-2007, 01:34 AM
Me first, you bannination-usurper!

tjwriter
10-23-2007, 01:34 AM
So, is it too much for me to ask that you close this thread down while I commute home and reopen upon my arrival at the home PC? I am prepared to provide departure and arrival notifications.

There's just too much fun to be had while I'm away for me to stand.


s

scarletpeaches
10-23-2007, 01:35 AM
Mods suck ass!

Ban me! I WANT IT!

KTC
10-23-2007, 01:36 AM
I have no idea what's going on, as I have been away for 2ish weeks. I have faith in the mods and the mac...what will be will be. This is a great place. I've hooked up with great people and great writers here. I've had fun being a goofball and I've gained employment here. I've helped others, others have helped me. It's been a great experience. I hope the mods and the mac continue what they're doing...come what may. I am not even interested in digging to find out what happened here in my absence.

Continue

Voyager
10-23-2007, 01:36 AM
The congresswoman from East L.A. yields the ban to the representative from Dundee.

MacAllister
10-23-2007, 01:37 AM
Kevin, you're just in time! Jenna is about to put Nichola in a time-out for her sins!

scarletpeaches
10-23-2007, 01:37 AM
The Dundonian BanWhore respectfully tells Voyager to shove it up her piehole.

Voyager
10-23-2007, 01:37 AM
I have no idea what's going on, as I have been away for 2ish weeks. I have faith in the mods and the mac...what will be will be. This is a great place. I've hooked up with great people and great writers here. I've had fun being a goofball and I've gained employment here. I've helped others, others have helped me. It's been a great experience. I hope the mods and the mac continue what they're doing...come what may. I am not even interested in digging to find out what happened here in my absence.

Continue

Who are you? You look vaguely familiar

Voyager
10-23-2007, 01:38 AM
The Dundonian BanWhore respectfully tells Voyager to shove it up her piehole.
Gawd yer sexay!

scarletpeaches
10-23-2007, 01:38 AM
I feel the steely hand of modly bannination on my shoulder for what I'm about to say...

BITE ME! :D

maestrowork
10-23-2007, 01:39 AM
this is madness.

(I self-banned for a month last November and it wasn't fun, but I got a lot done on my book)

MacAllister
10-23-2007, 01:39 AM
Errr....Jenna?

scarletpeaches
10-23-2007, 01:40 AM
I'm going on a self-ban for 15 minutes to get my kitchen floor mopped and the washer loaded with laundry. :D

Voyager
10-23-2007, 01:40 AM
Hurry up ffs, before she staples my bollocks to the ceiling!

MacAllister
10-23-2007, 01:41 AM
Oh no ya don't. I'll get someone to push the button...

maestrowork
10-23-2007, 01:42 AM
Wouldn't it be funny if Jenna banned Scarlet and then she totally forgot and went on vacation for two weeks?

I would laugh.

Monkey
10-23-2007, 01:43 AM
I've mentioned before that this forum is my only source of adult conversation from Monday - Friday, roughly (at this point) 6AM-6PM.

As such, it means a lot to me, and I'm also prone to discussing things other than my writing. There has only been about two times when I've ever felt personally attacked by a poster, despite baring my soul on these boards. I even posted about my (relatively secret in the real world) past living conditions in the P&CE board and had nothing but respectful things said. Now *that* was amazing...and, I admit, unexpected. (I was *so* bracing myself :) )

I know that it's foolhardy of me. But I feel safe here - rather, as safe as anyone can ever feel on a public forum. Scarlet might jump in with a joke, or Haskins might set me straight; I expect that, and find it charming. If things get out of hand, a Mod will probably jump in of their own accord. If they don't, I can ask them to. I feel certain that, even if the Mods disagree with me, they will be fair and do their best to keep the peace.

First and foremost, this is a forum about writing. I LOVE LOVE LOVE the SYW board. It's one of the most useful tools I've found on the internet. I love the fact that so many of the writers here are pro's, or are dedicated enough that, come hell or high water, they will someday get there. I love talking shop. None of that has changed recently. It's all as wonderful as ever.

But there is that other aspect to the forum...we make connections here. To varying degrees, we get attached to the people we meet here. I get genuinely happy when an AWer that I chat with regularly gets an agent. I talk to my husband about III and his "sarcastic font" idea. I love to see that an AWer that I've come to respect had something nice to say about my SYW piece. I read my reps and smile. For me, these connections are another part of what makes AW great. And it is here that AW is currently hurting.

People are being pretty disrespectful. People aren't apologizing when they step over the line, but rather getting angry and going on the offensive. Sadly, I don't see anything in particular that started this trend, and therefore see no easy solution for it. The Mods have signaled a willingness to crack down on bad behavior, but that seems to make people uneasy, too.

My only suggestion (and it's being done already) is that the Mods could give gentle warnings when it looks as though people are getting riled up, before they actually get to the point where Something needs to be done.

*sigh*

MacAllister
10-23-2007, 01:43 AM
I think I did that, once...

Monkey, I agree that a more direct and active warning system when people are starting to get hot under the collar would be helpful.

I've sent a couple of those via PM, though, and promptly heard back "Fuck you, I'll write whatever I want" -- which I'm not really at liberty to share with the other posters on the thread, and then I look heavy-handed when I boot someone. <shrug>

That's just part of modding. And I'm not whining. I just...sometimes I get a little too thick-skinned, and don't listen as well as I should -- which is what I'm trying to correct with this thread.

So thank you.

Celia Cyanide
10-23-2007, 01:44 AM
Remember the time all the mods played an April Fools joke on us, and they all got banned, except for Birol and Mac? That was awesome...

DamaNegra
10-23-2007, 01:47 AM
Remember the time all the mods played an April Fools joke on us, and they all got banned, except for Birol and Mac? That was awesome...
Ah, how can I forget that? I missed all the fun, though, but it was still a shock to come and see that all the mods had been banned.

I've been banned, once. I asked Jenna to ban me because I had a deadline and I knew I wouldn't be able to resist peeking into the forums. So she banned me. Man! That was hard! I kept opening AW but I could only see a message saying I couldn't even LURK in the forums :cry:

notpc
10-23-2007, 01:52 AM
Who the hell cares! Shut-up and write!

tjwriter
10-23-2007, 01:52 AM
So, is it too much for me to ask that you close this thread down while I commute home and reopen upon my arrival at the home PC? I am prepared to provide departure and arrival notifications.

There's just too much fun to be had while I'm away for me to stand.


s

I leave in 5 minutes...


:D
(One could hope!)

MacAllister
10-23-2007, 01:55 AM
Someone remind me to take Nichola back out of the banned group in another ten minutes?

III
10-23-2007, 01:55 AM
I'm going on a self-ban for 15 minutes to get my kitchen floor mopped and the washer loaded with laundry. :D

Dang it Bravetart, I'm trying to PM you back so I can shut down my computer. I guess it'll have to wait till later.

Monkey
10-23-2007, 01:56 AM
I've sent a couple of those via PM, though, and promptly heard back "Fuck you, I'll write whatever I want" --

:eek:

JJ Cooper
10-23-2007, 01:59 AM
Is it possible to lock members out of individual threads for being out of line. You know as things start to heat up a little a mod can step in and say 'you're out of line, please leave this thread. If you ignore this you will be of a short vacation' (or something worded better than that).

And I would love to see this sort of thing with serial de-railers. It may save some of the locked threads that still had value for members who didn't have a chance to post in them.

JJ

MacAllister
10-23-2007, 02:00 AM
:eek:
Yeah. That always makes me really happy, too.

ETA: JJCooper -- that's actually a really intriguing idea. Lemme think about the best way to implement something like that.

maestrowork
10-23-2007, 02:04 AM
Someone remind me to take Nichola back out of the banned group in another ten minutes?

Mac, take the day off.

There's nothing you need to do in 10 minutes... or tomorrow, or this week...

AnneMarble
10-23-2007, 02:11 AM
I've sent a couple of those via PM, though, and promptly heard back "Fuck you, I'll write whatever I want" ...
Maybe we need more of this... :whip:


And I would love to see this sort of thing with serial de-railers. It may save some of the locked threads that still had value for members who didn't have a chance to post in them.
Unless they de-rail the thread with discussions of haggis (or Haggis). Or about Orlando Bloom. Those are always on-topic. :D

JeanneTGC
10-23-2007, 02:13 AM
I was going to offer to be banned, if She Who Must Be Obeyed really needed another guinea pig, but that would mean I couldn't access Bewares & Background Checks, and while I could manage (just manage) to live without all the other forums (even...yes, even Humor), I can't see how I could get anything safely submitted with out B&BCs, which I think is the greatest thing about AW.

So, um, go ahead and ban the Peach. She wants it. :D

scarletpeaches
10-23-2007, 02:14 AM
Mac, take the day off.

There's nothing you need to do in 10 minutes... or tomorrow, or this week...

I heard that. :rant:

scarletpeaches
10-23-2007, 02:16 AM
Dang it Bravetart, I'm trying to PM you back so I can shut down my computer. I guess it'll have to wait till later.

You can do it now I'm back! :kiss:

Sunkissed27f
10-23-2007, 02:34 AM
You can do it now I'm back! :kiss:

She got you when you were gone!

PattiTheWicked
10-23-2007, 02:47 AM
Is it possible to lock members out of individual threads for being out of line. You know as things start to heat up a little a mod can step in and say 'you're out of line, please leave this thread. If you ignore this you will be of a short vacation' (or something worded better than that).


The only problem with that is that once someone's locked out of a specific thread, then they'll start eleventy-five MORE threads with headings like "AW is full of Nazis" and "Mac is a meanie poo head."

Like we need more clutter. If they can't behave, give 'em a warning and then ban them.

Unless it's Scarlet, who clearly gets off on this sort of anti-social behavior :)

scarletpeaches
10-23-2007, 02:49 AM
I'm not staying here to be insulted!

*waits for the chorus of "Why; where do you normally go?"*

Cassiopeia
10-23-2007, 03:12 AM
We can throw some camouflage net over the room -- that's not hard to do.I think that would be really a good compromise.

I don't want to be misunderstood, I think P & CE is very important. I just don't like the idea of a agent or publishing company checking us out at each other's throats.

But as you said, this will be diminishing in the weeks to come. :)

Cassiopeia
10-23-2007, 03:36 AM
I was going to offer to be banned, if She Who Must Be Obeyed really needed another guinea pig, but that would mean I couldn't access Bewares & Background Checks, and while I could manage (just manage) to live without all the other forums (even...yes, even Humor), I can't see how I could get anything safely submitted with out B&BCs, which I think is the greatest thing about AW.

So, um, go ahead and ban the Peach. She wants it. :DYou really are a suck up you know that? LOL ;)

MacAllister
10-23-2007, 04:04 AM
Now we're just waiting for TJWriter to get home and log back in.

Unique
10-23-2007, 04:10 AM
Wouldn't it be funny if Jenna banned Scarlet and then she totally forgot and went on vacation for two weeks?

I would laugh.
:roll:


Remember the time all the mods played an April Fools joke on us, and they all got banned, except for Birol and Mac? That was awesome...

God, Yes. That was hysterical!


Who the hell cares! Shut-up and write!

Whatever.

You guys have cracked me up again. Thanks for the deep breathing exercise.

tjwriter
10-23-2007, 04:21 AM
Now we're just waiting for TJWriter to get home and log back in.

I'm here. Trying to decide what kind of tea I want. Blame that all on Pete, please.

ETA: I've even had dinner and stuff. Conversation may go on, now.

Cassiopeia
10-23-2007, 04:34 AM
tj, try vanilla rooibos tea. It's lovely. :D

JennaGlatzer
10-23-2007, 04:35 AM
Aw, damn. My SIL showed up and we had to make faces at the baby together and I missed a good opportunity to ban someone for no solid reason, which I always enjoy.

But when you least expect it, I'm going to ban you.

Oh yes, you.

You, right there.

I'm going to sneak up behind you, and *BAM,* banned it will be.

*flicks cape up behind her, turns on heel, flies off*

tjwriter
10-23-2007, 04:38 AM
tj, try vanilla rooibos tea. It's lovely. :D

I have some bedtime stuff that's pretty good, but it *gasp* comes in a bag, or rather a triangle.


*flicks cape up behind her, turns on heel, flies off*

You know you are just running off to yell at socks.

JeanneTGC
10-23-2007, 04:38 AM
Aw, damn. My SIL showed up and we had to make faces at the baby together and I missed a good opportunity to ban someone for no solid reason, which I always enjoy.

But when you least expect it, I'm going to ban you.

Oh yes, you.

You, right there.

I'm going to sneak up behind you, and *BAM,* banned it will be.

*flicks cape up behind her, turns on heel, flies off*
*sniffle*

Ain't done NUTHIN'!

Cassiopeia
10-23-2007, 04:38 AM
Eeps! *runs for cover*

William Haskins
10-23-2007, 04:39 AM
I don't want to be misunderstood, I think P & CE is very important. I just don't like the idea of a agent or publishing company checking us out at each other's throats.

if i were an agent or publisher, i would be far more disgusted at the sophomoric and downright stupid threads in office party than i ever would be at spirited political discussion that occasionally descends into arguments.

Angie
10-23-2007, 04:46 AM
Aw, damn. My SIL showed up and we had to make faces at the baby together and I missed a good opportunity to ban someone for no solid reason, which I always enjoy.

But when you least expect it, I'm going to ban you.

Oh yes, you.

You, right there.

I'm going to sneak up behind you, and *BAM,* banned it will be.

*flicks cape up behind her, turns on heel, flies off*


I ain't askeered o' yo---

JennaGlatzer
10-23-2007, 04:50 AM
Foolish, foolish mortals.

Cassiopeia
10-23-2007, 04:50 AM
I just want to say in the meekest possible way and with all humility...

JEANNE started IT!

:D

tjwriter
10-23-2007, 04:51 AM
You having fun with your super powers tonight, are you?

I got up to fix tea and about fell outta the chair laughing when I got back.

Cassiopeia
10-23-2007, 04:52 AM
if i were an agent or publisher, i would be far more disgusted at the sophomoric and downright stupid threads in office party than i ever would be at spirited political discussion that occasionally descends into arguments.

I agree that sometimes we are silly in OP...but I don't see that as anything but people letting their hair down. :tongue

JeanneTGC
10-23-2007, 04:53 AM
Foolish, foolish mortals.
AAAAHHHHH!

Longest five minutes of my LIFE!!!

I loved my *Bam* line, though, Jenna. :D

(I'm not a nerd any more! I got sent to detention TOO, just like the tough, cool kids! Wahoo!)

BTW, Cassie started it.