You might have noticed...

I just took a break from writing and stopped by for the first time in a while, and admit to total confusion as to what's going on. I've looked around and don't have any idea what happened. I assume the evidence has been deleted. Can anyone give me a clue? Or point me in the right direction with a link?

I'm a bit worried that enforcing the rules more tightly will make people reluctant to speak up on points they feel strongly about. I've felt a couple of times, "Oh I better not say that; it might piss off a mod." Even though deep down I've hoped it would be taken as the joke I intended, I've been worried that I'd catch a mod on a bad day who wouldn't then think, "Oh, that's just SP being weird again."

Not to say I set out to deliberately annoy people - no, really. It's just that there's been the occasional feeling of walking on eggshells. Being polite is never bad, but sometimes I feel like I need to censor my thoughts and feelings to avoid rocking the boat, rather than avoiding causing offence...if you see what I mean.

And I know due to recent banninations there's been bad feeling on AW recently. Either through friends of the bannees (yes, that's a real word) or people who wonder, "Am I next?"

Not to say AW is turning into a police state...just...it's not as much fun as it used to be.

Jings. I even feel uncomfortable making this post. But there you go. My contribution, such as it is.

On the other side at another forum I frequent someone recently asked about Absolute Write and multiple people advised her not to come here because posters can be rude and attack people. There needs, IMHO, to be a balance.

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scarletpeaches said:

I'm a bit worried that enforcing the rules more tightly will make people reluctant to speak up on points they feel strongly about. I've felt a couple of times, "Oh I better not say that; it might piss off a mod." Even though deep down I've hoped it would be taken as the joke I intended, I've been worried that I'd catch a mod on a bad day who wouldn't then think, "Oh, that's just SP being weird again."

Not to say I set out to deliberately annoy people - no, really. It's just that there's been the occasional feeling of walking on eggshells. Being polite is never bad, but sometimes I feel like I need to censor my thoughts and feelings to avoid rocking the boat, rather than avoiding causing offence...if you see what I mean.

And I know due to recent banninations there's been bad feeling on AW recently. Either through friends of the bannees (yes, that's a real word) or people who wonder, "Am I next?"

Not to say AW is turning into a police state...just...it's not as much fun as it used to be.

Jings. I even feel uncomfortable making this post. But there you go. My contribution, such as it is.

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I would have to disagree. There are certainly areas of AW that require a stong stomach to enter, and others where logic fails completely. Yet the majority of the board seems to be serving it's intended purpose (if I may be so bold), and there are even places to have fun.

The P&CE section is, I feel, one of the necessary areas, kind of like needing a drainage tube inside a pus-filled wound. That stuff's gotta go somewhere, or it will end up affecting other areas. Plus, having a place like that makes it easy for people to avoid it. I've lost track of the number of times that I've typed up a heated reply to a particularly asinine post by someone who, if they had any brain cells working at all, would see that the position that they are so vociferously defending is simply stupid, wrong, and would lead the world into a veritable sink of sin and depravity. I then sit back and read what I've written. Nine times out of ten, I'll delete it -- not because I'm worried about pissing off a Mod, but generally because it's just not worth getting into a battle of wits with an unarmed person.

I've been lurking here a lot of years -- I made the switch to the new boards way back when -- and there have been ups and downs, but in the main, it has been a fairly stable place. It's not, IMHO, that it's turning into a Police State, but rather that the Authorities are having to step up their oversight and become a little more active than they've had to be in the past. This too shall pass.

We censor ourselves all the time in real life because we're civilized people. That doesn't mean we can't be ourselves, but we are all responsible for our words. Just because this is a "virtual" community and just electronic bits and bytes on a computer screen doesn't mean anything goes. We need to abide by the community's rules -- and this community, by and large, has a really simple rule: respect your fellow members.

"Respect other members" doesn't mean you have to like them, or talk to them, or listen to them. It just means you can't throw eggs at them when you're pissed off. Walk away instead. Report them. But no one is entitled to throw eggs. Like Mac said, we're not in kindergarten anymore.

Most people who get banned or reprimanded because they abuse this simple rule, including newbies and long-time supporters. Two wrongs don't make a right -- once we go down a path of disrespecting others, no matter how "justified" we are, we have willfully violated this very simple, but sacred rule that keeps this community strong.

There are many tools implemented on the board to address issues: Report, Ignore, PMs, etc. The mods are here to mitigate issues and differences. Yes, we have differences and we understand differences and we even embrace differences, but not at the expense of "respect."

Granted, we're only humans and we falter sometimes. Even mods are not immune to short fuses and emotions. But I think this community will be stronger if we keep the communication open and keep reminding each other what it means to be a community, and help each other out, we'll be okay.

Okay, just MHO.

There seems to be a... weird atmosphere around the forums lately. I've noticed it. I don't post as often as I did because... well... everything just feels a little weird. I don't remember there being such a huge number of bannings and thread lockings one year, two years ago.

But the reality is that I also hadn't noticed such an amount of rude posts before. People attacking each other, people making fun of each other, that sort of thing. There are even posters who chase each other around to board just to get a shot at each other. The number of fights has also been escalating out of proportions lately. The atmosphere at AW is simply not what it used to be. It's getting weird. Part fear, part rudeness, this is not the forums I used to know. And I don't like it one bit.

I've never felt scared to post. But then again, I've never been a controversial poster. I know where I stand on these boards. I'm younger than most of the members. I respect their opinions and use them to form my own. I don't talk about what I don't know, which is most of the discussions around here. I'm here to learn, not to fight about stupid political stuff that has little or nothing to do with the actual writing except for the fact that it can generate ideas.

When a group grows as much as AW is growing lately, it's obvious that people are never going to agree. But maybe it's just me, but posters seem to have become childish. Pointing fingers, issuing personal attacks. Is that really necessary? I think not.

While I think the Mod squad has become a little extreme and some of the Mods are a little too cranky, unpatient and quick to close a thread, the posters are also become insufferable. It's a bad combination that's due to blow up at any moment.

Again, just MHO.

I've only been here about ten months and I do frequent the boards regularly. I must say that AW has been nothing but helpful to me and my writing. I've learned things that I'm not sure I ever would have without this great place and all the great people that are here. During this time I've only noticed on several occasions someone being rude or an ass. They are usually the same people over and over again. I've also know there are posts that are filled with nothing but humor, maybe some could consider "sick humor" but it's still funny, at least to me. I have sick humor so mayber they are just funny to sick people like me.

For instance, when people like Scarlet, Haggis or Spooky posts on a thread I know it's going to be hilarious. I might not leave a post, but I will probably read it just because I know I'm going to laugh. Sometime I just need a laugh in my like. I know that sometimes a jerk apears on a thread and ruins it by making rude remarks to someone. Yes, as an adult me and everyone should ignore the remark, but sometimes it's hard when you see some innocent victim being ripped to shreds by an ass.

I hope this place stays as it is. I think the Mods are doing a great job dealing with so many people and personality types and keeping everything in order. I do hope this does not become a police state where we no longer can speak freely. Saying means things to someone with intent is never acceptable, but I hope the laughs are still allowed to flow freely. A true jerk just always seems to stick out.

I totally agree with being tougher on the "don't be a jerk" rule. I really think a lot of problems lately have been caused by members sniping at each other because (and I'm really NOT trying to be a b*tch or anti-mod OR anti-member here) there's a perception that one person or another keeps getting a sort of "free pass" to be a jerk, while someone else gets banned. And I know there's a lot of discussion before that ban button is hit; again, I'm not trying to cause trouble for mods. Some of the mods are my good friends. I just think that there are some people who don't think the rules are being applied fairly to everyone, and that's causing a lot of tension and drama.

I'm not in a position to make that judgment, and I'm glad I'm not. And I think a little more courtesy on everyone's part will clear up a lot of the trouble. As it is now, I post primarily in OP, partly because it's a great stress reliever for me, and partly because the threads there tend to be more fun-loving and less sniping.

Just my two cents. I'll fade back into the obscurity of my silly threads now.

MacAllister said:

See, here's the thing. I don't think it's as much fun as it used to be, either -- so how do we make it more fun again?

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Make me a superdupermod?

MacAllister said:

I don't think giving people more license to behave badly is the answer. I do think consistency is important -- and I'm not sure how to pull it off, given that people will always tend to read their friends and acquaintances better than they read strangers.

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Of course I'm not talking about allowing people to behave badly. Then again, there's a fine line between making allowances for individual personalities and giving the appearance of favouring one person over another.

It's a difficult position to be in and not one I envy. It's certainly true we read friends better than strangers and that in itself carries the danger of making 'outsiders' feel like we're part of a clique - when in fact they shouldn't feel like outsiders at all.

MacAllister said:

That is, if a friend of mine says, "Jesus, Mac, you're an idiot..." I'm going to listen, and not feel like he's being rude to me. But a stranger doesn't get to say that, that way, you know?

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Similarly, I made a reference to handicripples in a post to Azraelsbane earlier (which she repped me for, incidentally). A stranger would think, "Jesus, H - how'd she get away with that?!" But I like to think me and Az have a rapport. And she used that word first, anyway, so neener.

I'd hate to think members here felt too on edge to fully be themselves, but at the same time realise 'respect your fellow writer' is our prime directive.

There are always going to be people you get on with more than others - that's not cliquism, just human nature - and yet, getting too comfortable on a public forum can often make us forget that we are in public, and anyone can read what we say.

I know I've offended a few people with various posts I've made in the past but the majority of AWers understand that because of my background, upbringing, personality quirks, I'm a naturally irreverent, piss-taking kind of person. I know to a newbie I can come across as far more assertive than I actually feel. I know to people in real life I can come across as far more asssertive than I actually feel. But I only take the piss out of people I feel comfortable with. It's my way of showing affection, MacAllister, you big modNazi. Please don't ban me.

joyce said:

...For instance, when people like Scarlet, Haggis or Spooky posts on a thread I know it's going to be hilarious. I might not leave a post, but I will probably read it just because I know I'm going to laugh. Sometime I just need a laugh in my like...

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Yay! I can haz cookie now plz?

At the risk of souding flippant (not my intent), could someone explain what's going on? I don't think I can be the only person on AW who is, frankly, not aware of a lot of the brouhaha. I have no idea of why OFG has left, had no idea of why PeeDee would have left, have no idea of what's going on, but it's clearly affecting a place I hold dear.

There ARE people on the boards who I know go out of their way to bait others. A couple of them have "gotten" me. But like Maestro said, you have to censor yourself. I've slipped up a couple of times, I think everyone does. But so far, things get resolved or I let them drop. There are plenty of threads I thought should be shut down, several people I feel should be banned -- but I'm not a mod and I don't run the joint, and so I just sort of move along. Everyone has good days and bad days, you know?

There are thousands of others on the boards who don't cause trouble anywhere, or with anyone. I'd have to venture a guess that most of them have no idea of what happened to promt Mac's post, nor any clear idea of "what's wrong". It's great (seriously) that Mac's addressed whatever it is -- because nothing destroys faster than rumor and innuendo -- but it's so vague that for those of us who have no idea of what's going on, it creates a different kind of fear and stress.

So, um, again, at the risk of being told that if I don't know, I don't need to know, what's going on?

MacAllister said:

I do see what you mean. I wonder if we all need to periodically refocus on why we're here -- and it's about writing -- even while it's very much a valued social outlet for many of us, too.

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To be honest that's what I did several months ago. I'd rather write and participate in other areas of this forum than a few places where tempers tend to flare rather easily. Just not worth it.

I also found out long ago that there is more to life than spending hours and hours each day on the internet. Believe it or not but there is a world outside of the computer.

I can't say enough about using this forum for what it was intended and not become so involved with politics or temper tantrums that it distracts you from getting more out of this site.

Well that's my two kopeck worth. And I'd like to remind people that Mac is a fair person and not prone to just toss a member to the pavement like some other writing forums.

JeanneTGC said:

So, um, again, at the risk of being told that if I don't know, I don't need to know, what's going on?

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I don't know what the hell is going on either. I just know that the atmosphere's changed, and some members I loved dearly are leaving. I, too, was considering leaving for good, because this place just doesn't feel the same. I stayed, though, because I'd rather work on whatever's wrong so this place can feel right again.

I do think Scarlet has a good point: sometimes we joke and tease and muck around with members we feel comfortable with (the HOL, for example), but to other people, those posts/thread may come off as irrelevant, annoying, racy, rude, etc. and not many people get it as "oh, Scarlet was just having fun with Azraelsbane who's her friend." Perception vs. perception.

I guess it becomes an issue of balance -- how do we have fun, bond with our friends but not come off to others as jerks? I guess an analogy to remember is this: it's like we're at a party. Some of us are great friends and we have a clique... and we joke and tease each other and have a great time, but we also need to know that we're all wearing a loud speaker -- everyone else at the party can hear us, and our behaviors do impact other guests at the party. If that's the case, how would you react? Are you going to be a jerk and say "screw everyone else -- we're just having fun" or would you be more considerate and direct your more "racy" and "loud" stuff to PMs and rep points?

Something to consider, no?

MacAllister said:

You'll notice some more changes, in coming weeks. We're going to be much tougher about the "don't act like a jerk" guideline. (That's "Respect Your Fellow Writer" for the more civilized members.) That goes for everyone -- no matter if you've been here five years or five minutes. And it goes everywhere -- even P & CE.

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And that's the key, I think. Consistency.

I've noticed over the weekend that there seems to be less posting and frivolity. Likely, that's aftershocks. I, too, have hesitated a couple of times before posting. Which isn't a bad thing. We should all take a moment to think before we post, and make sure we are responding with care and deliberation. And if someone chooses to post something questionable, we can all expect the same type of consequence.

The unease will dispell soon enough.

Another point that's been made that I take to heart, is the one to be more diligent in alerting mods to questionable postings. I'll admit that I usually just roll my eyes and move on, but I realize I can be move involved in flagging such content. And I'll do that because I care about this community and the folks in it.

This too will pass.

JeanneTGC said:

At the risk of souding flippant (not my intent), could someone explain what's going on? I don't think I can be the only person on AW who is, frankly, not aware of a lot of the brouhaha. I have no idea of why OFG has left, had no idea of why PeeDee would have left, have no idea of what's going on, but it's clearly affecting a place I hold dear.

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Yes indeed, my sentiments exactly. It would be nice to have some idea what in the world is going on.

I think that it would be good to try and keep the socialising more in the social areas. Not exclusively, just enough for writing-related threads not to get swamped.

Cyber personalities are hard to decipher. I am a terminal thread derailer (the meds are helping) and sometimes go on exuberant posting binges about really really stupid things (like pie). I can also get quite easily annoyed when someone is being a jerk.

The jerk I get most annoyed with? Me. My sense of humor doesn't always translate well. *sigh*

I've found that AW is a great online haven for writers of all levels of expertise, and an even greater resource. The mods have a herculean chore and for the most part a great deal of patience. When they lose their patience I figure it's something pretty extreme. If it's with me then I accept that, I take my hand-slapping meekly and go back to what I should really be doing which is working. I can't help being a smartalec all the time(genetics suck), but usually I can try not to be an asshat.

That being said, I'd have to toss in that there are a lot of people on AW who are doing NaNo. Not only should that prove to be a good stress release, but it should keep us pretty darn busy. Maybe that will help ease the tension and bring us back to play in December with a stronger understanding of the differences between fun and mean or assertive and aggressive.

I'll try to do my part. Cheers.

It will pass.

I have seen some really stupendous stuff break out that I was surprised to see here, in weird forums---I mean, the Newbie forum? The FAQ forum? The Blogging forum? There have been threads there that got locked and moved for good reason. When Take it Outside is saner than other places, something is weird.

I wonder if it's the politics threads that are causing it. The thing is, some people are rude there, and then carry it over into other places. Consistency is important.

I've been on places with inconsistent moderation. It tends to result in stuff like this. I don't know what to do about it sometimes, other than try to be more consistent. Sane political conversations can be had... or can they?

The Warren Ellis Forum remained the sanest for a long time, for various reasons: a cracking mod team, a site owner who was not afraid to crack down, simple but clear forum conduct rules (The Engine, a brief official revival, said "If you try to turn this into your Personal Arguing Machine, you will get banned", basically, right on the front page).

I've seen politics threads in there that threatened to boil over in just three posts get clobbered and locked, usually with a sense of firm humor from the mods.

Then there are places where it's been decided that the users can do whatever they want, just about, including racist threads, and mods must express their power only through careful discussion, which doesn't work against high-octane trolls.

So I think the AW mods are doing some slight readjustment for the increase in rudeness, which should help settle things down back to normal.

Gods know I've been places where I wish that had happened.

Please don't say this is like a party, or I'll feel like I have to be a wallflower all over again

In all seriousness, I agree that the boards have changed, even in the few months I've been a member. I was here when Gordon Jerome was booted the second time, and I thought that would be the norm for anyone who acted like he did. There have been a couple of instances where that didn't happen. I realize that each case is different (ie. GJ was kicked out before, came back, and caused more trouble, but when a newbie comes in and does the same thing, he's given more chances).

I walk away from my computer without hurt feelings, but some people don't. I consider quite a few writers on this forum to be friends, so when someone circles the wagons, I'm right there. I realize that makes me part of the problem.

From now on, I agree to attempt to disarm the situation rather than to join the fight. I don't want to lose my friends to bannination or hurt feelings.

Ava Jarvis said:

I wonder if it's the politics threads that are causing it. The thing is, some people are rude there, and then carry it over into other places. Consistency is important.

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Yep. In my opinion that forum had more incidents of name calling and belligerence than I can ever recall. Heck, it even sucked me in for a while but I pretty much stopped posting there because I felt the forum was a place for people to bicker all day long.