Sex Scenes in Historicals

I haven't listened to the podcast yet, but I think you're right about Gabaldon's use of sex scenes to advance character and plot. One of the things that really struck me after the first couple of books is the number of different emotions she associates with sex and the number of different ways she describes the associated sex. Off the top of my head I can think of examples of comfort, fear, relief, anger, joy, passion, assertion of power, pride and, of course, love. Sometimes she does give a lot of graphic detail (I can't bear that scene with Jack Randall) but quite often you don't get any thrashing bodies at all. Just the build up or the aftermath, or both. You always know who is having sex in her scenes - they're not generic descriptions, but specific to the characters and situations.

Okay, I'm listening now. I love that she was aiming to explore the whole of a marriage. That's one of the things I've really enjoyed about her books - that Jamie and Claire's relationship is allowed to develop and change over the years, and that we see how their love grows and matures with them. And that the sex is part of that - she shows how they have learned to know each other intimately and be comfortable with each other physically and emotionally.

"A sex scene as a specific sort of dialogue scene." I like that too. And that it's a time when characters express their emotions most vividly. The physical details used sparingly to anchor the reader into the scene - because we all know how it works so we don't need to be told. Just enough that we can use our imaginations.

Thanks for the link. I'll be interested to know what others think.

I read the title as "Sex scenes in hospitals".

I've got one sex scene in my novel. It isn't terribly graphic --- I make good use of the closed bedroom door, so it's more buil up and aftermath than anything else --- but it is a crucial scene for both developing character and moving the plot forward.
Frankly, I find reading the slot a tab b sections of sex scenes in novels, boring. I usually skim them to get back to where the characters are talking. I felt differently when I was fourteen.

From her Podcast:

--The sex scenes aren't written gratuitously or just to 'jazz up' the reader; always to do with the relationships between the people

--They are part of other scenes, not scenes in & of themselves

--Writers approach it as just a sex scene, but it is a type of dialogue scene, an exchange of emotion... people are more honest during sex, 'laid bare' in more than just the physical sense...

--Don't need all the physical details ... these are bad sex scenes that just tell all this ... physical details are sparse, anchor points for the scene ... adult readers know the rest & don't need it ... they fill it in for themselves

Maybe this is why women go so crazy for her books ... 'bad' romance novels are almost as if written for men. Just quickie, to the point, all physical. Her scenes are about the heart, the interactions between the characters, their relationship & how it is building over time.

She says in her podcast that part of what she wanted to do was explore how people stay married over a very long period of time, and that she doesn't personally know any 50-year marriages that last without sex, LOL.

What she's really doing is putting onto paper NOT the Hollywood-ized carnal scene that's there just for jazzing up the viewers or shock value. She's trying to put down in the story those very private & intimate moments ... the ones you blush when you recall them at the Thanksgiving table with your inlaws, the same kind they are probably also enjoying & you do not want to know anything about ... both the very tender & the quite profane moments that people have together alone.

To sum it up ... they aren't really 'sex' scenes. They are 'intimate' scenes.

And I have only gotten as far as the point in the story where they are shipwrecked in the Americas ... and the one she read is a lot more profane, nitty-gritty, than the other ones I remember (but perhaps I've just forgotten) -- those involving his wife, anyway.


wee

Also adding ... I thought her name was pronounced Geh-BALL-dun, but she says Gabble-DOH-n (if my pronunciation key makes any sense at all). Doh!


wee

Ok, I have no idea who this woman is but her stories sound great and I think I'm going to have to do some Googling.

I can't listen to the podcast at the moment because I am at work but as for sex scenes in general, I don't like writing them unless it's necessary for the story and even then they're not graphic and they're more about feeling and intimacy than what goes where. As for it in a historical context, I'm writing a historical piece about a prostitute in New York during the revolution. Not much by the way of intimacy there and it is more about the mechanics. Granted I haven't gotten far and the one scene I did write was when the reader comes in to him "finishing" and then uses her dress to wipe up the mess. There're emotions around it but not in the act itself. On the other side there's a very prudish woman whom has sex simply to procreate while her husband frequents one of the pros. He, in turn, passed an STD along to her and she finds any "funny business" in the bedroom "wrong" and they don't do it so he gets his kicks elsewhere. It's not fully developed yet, obviously.

But I think sex in any story is entirely dependent on the characters and the situation. Sometimes sex is without emotion, sometimes sex is mechanical. Even between lovers, and constant lovers, sex can be just as animalistic and "wham bam thank you ma'am" as it can be intimate and passionate. Not all couples make "love" every time they have sex. I think that would actually create for a boring sex life after a while. I must read this woman's books though because I'm interested to see her take on a historical relationship and what it would take to maintain a marriage using such aspects as a good sex life and actually keeping it good. As long as it's not smut, sex for sex's sake or steeped entirely in mushiness, I'll read it.

Donna Duck - Gabaldon's a good read. The premise is that Claire (female MC) has time-travelled to the past, and many adventures ensue. She's very much a modern woman in pre-modern times.

From the brief synopsis of your WIP I would recommend you take a look at The Crimson Petal and The White. Set in Victorian England, part of the plot is a triangle between a woman, her husband, and a prostitute. The sex scenes are brilliant. I don't mean that they are sexy - I mean that they are written by a brilliant writer. I can't recommend this book highly enough. I read it the first time for sheer pleasure. I'm going back in to take a closer look at how Faber did it. Very mixed reviews on this book. I'm obviously in the camp that considers it a great piece of writing. Oops. Went off topic.

Back to topic.
Will watch the podcast when I have a little more time, and return to the discussion. Room for a romance writer in this discussion group? Gabaldon's writing of the Jamie/Claire relationship taught me a lot about writing romance, and any discussion of the great heroes and heroines of the romance genre will inevitably end with Jamie and Claire (even though Gabaldon states that she does not write romance). I'll be back. Great topic, C.E.

Thanks for the reference, Delores. I must add those to my pick lists! There are so many already but I'm a sucker for historical fiction. Granted the premise of a woman going back in time is familiar; I think I might have heard of it before and I'm just not recognizing it.

What gets up my nose...

is historical novels, usually romances, with gratuitous sex scenes in a very modern style.

I shall listen to the podcast with interest as I rather thought, from my reading of DG's first novel, that the sex scenes she had were a little 21stC titillation.

I think before you start adding sex scenes you need to check out:

characters' religion and that religion's attitude to sex at the time.

How your characters regarded religion and obeyed its decrees.

Look up what happened to women caught in adultery.

Look up what happened to men caught in adultery.

Remember that there was no birth control and women were chary of getting pregnant

Read one of those research papers which talks about your time's attitude to sex.


Remember that most of you are writing at a time of the male dominant society and where religion insisted that sex was for procreation and not pleasure.

c.e.lawson said:

Yes, lkp - I agree. Many fourteen year olds probably read sex scenes because they're curious about the mechanics. But Gabaldon makes the great point in this podcast that in her sex scenes there IS dialogue. Both verbal and physical. And that during sex many people are exposed and honest. In her scenes the characters are actually saying a lot. And the mechanics simply aren't necessary, except here and there to anchor the scene and draw the reader in. But that's all secondary to the emotion and dialogue.

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And I agree with you --- a sex scene can be a great place where all the emotions of the characters as well as all the values that the characters hold and share (or don't share), and all the expectations and constraints of the societies in which they live can come together in a really vivid way.

I also think that, while religious attitudes were important and influential, they weren't always uniformly held. And that it's easy to caricature. Who knew, for instance, that the Puritans were certainly in favour of sex for pleasure and not just procreation? And, at some level, people are still people. So although things change at different periods of history, not everything changes. How people express things like love or fear or anger might change, but the emotions are still the same and that's how we, as 21st century readers, will connect with our historical counterparts.

c.e.lawson said:

I wonder, though, what the bedroom was really like behind closed doors in some of those male dominated societies. I mean, women could wield some power there that they might not ever be able to enjoy anywhere else. Do you think anyone took advantage of that?

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For some reason I have a strong image of Glenn Close in Dangerous Liaisons reading that! I don't know if people took advantage of that in every society, but I'd be willing to bet money that there have been women wielding that kind of power since before history. And you can certainly write a cracking good story about it!

I have sex scenes and a rape in one novel because they are vital to the character's development, to the story, and to present an aspect of the society. As PDR said, be aware of the society and its restrictions.

The only Gabaldon novel I've read is Dragonfly in Amber. Yes, I loved the story but, quite frankly, the pages of sex at the end of almost every chapter became boring and I skipped them. It made me avoid other novels of hers.

girlyswot said:

I also think that, while religious attitudes were important and influential, they weren't always uniformly held. And that it's easy to caricature. Who knew, for instance, that the Puritans were certainly in favour of sex for pleasure and not just procreation? And, at some level, people are still people. So although things change at different periods of history, not everything changes. How people express things like love or fear or anger might change, but the emotions are still the same and that's how we, as 21st century readers, will connect with our historical counterparts.

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I read a journal from an American frontier woman (or an excerpt from it, really) who came to the realization that her husband was courting their 16-year-old daughter. It details her great anguish at this discovery, and her attempts to protect her daughter at a time when she had few rights & no one to turn to.

We get this idea that somehow all great discoveries were made in the last 50 years. I know for a fact that women were capable of orgasm at least a few thousand years ago, and that this fact wasn't discovered by the American bra-burning generation. Both men & women have been enjoying that aspect of life since men & women existed. I guess I just don't buy it that prevailing social notions made women incapable of enjoying that part of life. Prevailing social notions have never kept teenaged girls from getting pregnant, or kept men from visiting prostitutes, etc.

I mentioned the journal above as an example that sex isn't a new thing, depravity isn't a new thing ... there is "nothing new under the sun". I think women have enjoyed sex (or not enjoyed it) at all points in history. In fact, I remember sitting astounded in a group of wives who were talking about having to 'do their duty' or making shopping lists in their heads, etc. In the 21st century?! Isn't everyone enlightened & loving it, based on our current culture? Nothing new, nothing new ...

Also -- one of Gabaldon's books does talk about the male MC, Jamie, who takes a wife while the female MC is back in her own time for a few decades. His 2nd wife is terrified of getting pregnant & won't let him come anywhere near her. Luckily for him, Claire shows back up, infertile.


wee

I remember watching a show on the History Channel that was talking about drawings found on ancient Greek and Roman brothels and spas that depicted oral sex and how horrified the "people of the world" were when that discovery was made although I highly doubt it was anything new. John Donne was commonly preaching chastity and virginal attitudes while privately woo-ing women to sleep with him only to want to burn them at the stake the following day. I think many people, especially those who were outwardly critical of sexual fun were, in fact, quite promiscuous and adventurous themselves. The male character in one of my WIP is head of this movement to rid New York City of it's whore houses while, privately he's one of their frequent visitors. I think history was a very 'Do as I say, not as I do' time not only to save face but to potentially save your life. I think the only difference now is that it's much more widely accepted and we have different...tools to help us along.

wee said:

Also adding ... I thought her name was pronounced Geh-BALL-dun, but she says Gabble-DOH-n (if my pronunciation key makes any sense at all). Doh!


wee

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That was a lesson for me as well. I enjoyed the podcasts though - didn't listen to all of them yet but I did listen to several. Anyone with any interest in the paranormal will find the one titled "Ghosts" very interesting too - I did!

DonnaDuck said:

I think many people, especially those who were outwardly critical of sexual fun were, in fact, quite promiscuous and adventurous themselves. The male character in one of my WIP is head of this movement to rid New York City of it's whore houses while, privately he's one of their frequent visitors.

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As common today as in the past.

I must check out the podcast as I've got at least one sex scene in a historical novel I've been picking at for a long time. My main problem with that is that one of the characters is a 17th century English Puritan, though not all that staunch when the book begins, and suffering from post traumatic shock disorder, so getting the emotional content and the sort of historical context right was a bit of a juggle.

wee said:

We get this idea that somehow all great discoveries were made in the last 50 years. I know for a fact that women were capable of orgasm at least a few thousand years ago, and that this fact wasn't discovered by the American bra-burning generation. Both men & women have been enjoying that aspect of life since men & women existed. I guess I just don't buy it that prevailing social notions made women incapable of enjoying that part of life. Prevailing social notions have never kept teenaged girls from getting pregnant, or kept men from visiting prostitutes, etc.

I mentioned the journal above as an example that sex isn't a new thing, depravity isn't a new thing ... there is "nothing new under the sun". I think women have enjoyed sex (or not enjoyed it) at all points in history. In fact, I remember sitting astounded in a group of wives who were talking about having to 'do their duty' or making shopping lists in their heads, etc. In the 21st century?! Isn't everyone enlightened & loving it, based on our current culture? Nothing new, nothing new ...

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I'm glad I stumbled on this thread, and I'll definitely have to listen to the podcast. I've never read anything by this Gabaldon, but I agree wholeheartedly with all the quotes from the podcast listed above about sex scenes being about emotion and not mechanics.

I'm currently planning a an erotic, soft-core S&M novel set in the 1920s. Certainly my characters don't have to be prudes because of the time period. On the contrary, the way the Fitzgeralds carried on makes modern rock stars look tame. However, I am still wrestling with how to approach the sex scenes in language and tone. My concern is that modern readers, especially erotica readers, expect a certain frankness in language that wouldn't be appropriate for that time period.

I've been experimenting with writing erotica on and off since college, but I've never attempted a historical story before. That's why I'm scouring this section of the boards. I guess the approach I'm planning for my book is to focus on my characters' emotional journeys first, their sexual experimentation second, and relegate the Roaring Twenties to background noise. (I'm still not sure how to bring that time period "to life," aside from clothing styles, slang, and dropping references to current events.)

Another important issue, that I think may be related to what wee has said, is that many of us write historical fiction in order to explore the kinds of issues and stories that can't be explored through writing straight history because there just aren't the right kind of sources. Thre is nothing (or very little) like that frontierswoman's diary in the Middle Ages, my period. So if I am going to understand how a medieval woman responded to issues of sex and sexuality, I am going to have to use my imagination. I will feed my imagination with the things we do know --- canon law, treatises written by the church, penitential handbooks, documents, etc. --- but at the end of the day, the way I depict my characters' attitudes is my judgement call.

You can't assume that everybody obeyed whatever norms were in place at whatever time. You have to assume that their attitudes and actions were formulated in relationship to those norms.

Jessramage - re your comment about your Puritan MC: my topic is 17th century Puritans too and my research has confirmed over and over again that the Puritan attitude to sex was nothing like as prudish as public opinion believes. In fact in new England in that era failure to provide one's partner with a satisfactory sex-life was considered acceptable grounds for divorce. They weren't too keen on premarital or adultery. The law prescribed the death penalty for adultery though it wasn't often invoked.