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Marian Perera
10-01-2007, 04:39 PM
I was reading a book on drug use in sports, fascinated by the descriptions of the methods athletes use to beat the drug tests, when I came across this.


Female athletes also catheterize clean urine directly into the bladder, through the vagina. --- Inside Dope : How drugs are the biggest threat to sports, by Dick Pound

That just doesn't sound right to me. Surely the author meant "through the urethra", because I think it'd take surgery to get to the bladder from the vagina.

That was a very odd thing to read in a published book.

Medievalist
10-01-2007, 05:41 PM
That's umm . . . certainly odd, and not likely, but then, neither is the author's name.

Sheryl Nantus
10-01-2007, 06:35 PM
:ROFL::roll::ROFL:

and...

ow.

:Shrug:

Popeyesays
10-02-2007, 09:37 AM
Well the name would imply familiarity with the vagina, but the information is off. My wife's a nurse, one cannot cathaterize that way. Cathaterization goes through the urethra or the ureter for women and correspondingly men. The tube is pushed up through the pathway til it enters the bladder and a small bulb is inflated to keep the cathater in place.

Short term, men can get away with a Texas Cathater, which is like a condom with a tube to the fill bag. This will cause skin irritation and ulceration if left in place too long.

Regards,
Scott

J. R. Tomlin
10-02-2007, 11:23 PM
I was reading a book on drug use in sports, fascinated by the descriptions of the methods athletes use to beat the drug tests, when I came across this.



That just doesn't sound right to me. Surely the author meant "through the urethra", because I think it'd take surgery to get to the bladder from the vagina.

That was a very odd thing to read in a published book.
:D That had to have come from a male who has never met much less done anything else with a woman. Wow. And speaking of editing--

Medievalist
10-02-2007, 11:49 PM
:D That had to have come from a male who has never met much less done anything else with a woman. Wow.

Exactly. Look at the author's name: Dick Pound

Maryn
10-03-2007, 01:00 AM
Pound, right. I bet it's under 12 ounces.

ChunkyC
10-03-2007, 02:34 AM
That's umm . . . certainly odd, and not likely, but then, neither is the author's name.
Actually, Dick Pound is one of my most respected countrymen and is Chairman of the World Anti Doping Agency (http://www.wada-ama.org/en/dynamic.ch2?pageCategory.id=254). He has been involved in Olympic movement for nearly half a century.

With that said, the juxtaposition of that glaring error and his name is pretty bad.

Sunkissed27f
10-03-2007, 02:39 AM
Umm the urethra is located IN the vagina. The opening of it anyway. Maybe he meant it that way!

Hapax Legomenon
10-03-2007, 02:42 AM
I just have to say that he has an unfortunate name. Can't he just go by Richard? Ricky? Rich? ANYTHING else? DX

Azraelsbane
10-03-2007, 02:52 AM
Smart (read stupid) cheating athletes don't catheterize backwards, they simply go for bladder clamping.

**This brought to you by someone who has been made to pee in a cup by the USOC three times in the past year.**

Those bastards love waking you up at 6am, or pulling you to the side at a track meet when you only have 40 min between events. ;)

Medievalist
10-03-2007, 03:02 AM
Umm the urethra is located IN the vagina. The opening of it anyway. Maybe he meant it that way!

No. That's just wrong.

The urethra is located in the vulva (http://content.revolutionhealth.com/contentimages/images-image_popup-ans7_vulva.jpg), not the vagina; the opening is between the clitoris and the vagina, inside the labia, but above and definitely external to the vaginal opening (http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=8876); it may be obscured by the clitoral hood or the labia, given the variations in female anatomy.

Keep in mind that the vagina or birth canal is merely a part of the vulva, the entire collection of female genitalia.

ChunkyC
10-03-2007, 03:06 AM
Somebody should have caught that boo-boo, that's for sure.

Redhedd
10-03-2007, 03:34 AM
Oh no, the boo-boos are much higher up, on the front of the torso.

(Ahem. Sorry, couldn't resist. That's what my 3-year old calls them. [g])

WendyNYC
10-03-2007, 03:37 AM
Umm the urethra is located IN the vagina. The opening of it anyway. Maybe he meant it that way!


Er, no.

http://kvhs.nbed.nb.ca/gallant/biology/femanat.jpg

jennifer75
10-03-2007, 03:40 AM
This whole thread just screams OUCH!

benbradley
10-03-2007, 03:43 AM
About the new-and-improved subject line, isn't the discussion about Mary rather than Frank?

<g,d&r>

J. R. Tomlin
10-03-2007, 07:17 AM
Umm the urethra is located IN the vagina. The opening of it anyway. Maybe he meant it that way!
ummmm no. The opening of the urethra is not located IN the vagina. You must pee REAL different than I do if that's where yours is. :D

And actually this whole thread screams SERIOUS confusion. And I really don't think the urethra is part of the "female sexual anatomy" -- honestly.

melaniehoo
10-03-2007, 07:21 AM
It scares me that some men still think that's how we work. Some don't even realize there are two different, er, holes.

Medievalist
10-03-2007, 07:43 AM
It scares me that some men still think that's how we work. Some don't even realize there are two different, er, holes.

Neither do a heck of a lot of women; given that, honestly, I'm thinkin' how are guys supposed to know?

Please . . . spare me the obvious rejoinders . . . I know what you're thinking in the peanut gallery.

veinglory
10-03-2007, 08:27 AM
I'm most thinking "hey, where are my peanuts?" But then I ran out of any purient interest in genitalia and other talia 10-12 erotic novellas ago.

J. R. Tomlin
10-04-2007, 09:25 PM
Neither do a heck of a lot of women; given that, honestly, I'm thinkin' how are guys supposed to know?

Please . . . spare me the obvious rejoinders . . . I know what you're thinking in the peanut gallery.I don't know any women who aren't perfectly well aware that they don't pee out of the vagina, medievalist. And any man who is that ignorant--well, honestly, it doesn't even bare thinking on. Purient interests would be strictly wasted with someone that ignorant. And a man would have to be working at staying ignorant if he had ever done anything --shall we say purient. :D

As my daughter once said when she was about three -- "What is it that you call what boys have, Mommy? Peanuts?"

So comments from the peanut gallery are quite all right.

WendyNYC
10-04-2007, 09:30 PM
I don't know any women who aren't perfectly well aware that they don't pee out of the vagina, medievalist.

I think there are women who think that whole area is called the vagina.

jodiodi
10-04-2007, 09:39 PM
As a nurse (I always have to qualify medical/A&P comments that way, apparently), I can honestly say, sometimes...and I do mean RARELY ... one must explore the vaginal opening to find the urethra. There are times when the urethra is lower than one expects, but it's still a distinctly different opening. On more than one occasion, I've had to ask co-workers to hold a flashlight (and something else) to find the urethra, especially on obese or elderly patients.

That's why some people would rather cath men. There's no mistake where the opening is. However, I usually wound up with guys who had bad prostates and that's just not fun for anyone except maybe serious S&M players.

And the urethra can actually be used in a sexual context by those who are into that sort of thing (and not just WS). There are links online if you want to see how it's done.

ChaosTitan
10-04-2007, 11:14 PM
Comments on this from both sides of the Gallery are welcome. However, I ask that posts concentrate on the Science Fact of things, as presented by the OP, or we let the discussion drop. The personal commentaries of boy/girl differences, while humorous (LOL, Perks!) are better suited to Office Party.

Thanks, all.

Perks
10-04-2007, 11:53 PM
Comments on this from both sides of the Gallery are welcome. However, I ask that posts concentrate on the Science Fact of things, as presented by the OP, or we let the discussion drop. The personal commentaries of boy/girl differences, while humorous (LOL, Perks!) are better suited to Office Party.

Thanks, all.
Oh sorry. I didn't see where this thread was slotted. I deleted the post.

Medievalist
10-05-2007, 05:41 AM
I've been a counselor at at campus woman's center, and I assure you, there are adult women, even sexually active adult women, who really don't know where their vagina is, never mind their urethra or clitoris.

They really don't. And it's unfortunately far more common than you'd think.

I had to write instructions for using tampons for women in third world countries, using simple vocabulary that could be easily translated into other languages, and it's awfully hard to communicate spatial concepts with respect to anatomy. I know, erotica writers do it all the time, and I very much respect their skills.

Haggis
10-05-2007, 05:47 AM
A question from the 'peanut gallery' if I'm allowed. Please delete it if I'm not.

Is it possible that the problem is just semantics? I mean is it possible that some women simply never learned the proper words for their different parts? Certainly many men are worried about their 'prostrates.'

Medievalist
10-05-2007, 05:56 AM
A question from the 'peanut gallery' if I'm allowed. Please delete it if I'm not.

Is it possible that the problem is just semantics? I mean is it possible that some women simply never learned the proper words for their different parts? Certainly many men are worried about their 'prostrates.'

Yes, I think that's part of it--it's very odd to see adult, literate, even overeducated women refer to their "kitty kat," their "coochee," or whatever--and often, yes, there's no awareness that there are several discrete organs, orifices, locations etc.

I think it's important to use specific language, whether or not it's Latinate vocabulary that would endear an anatomist.

And you're not the "peanut gallery, " in my mind Haggis; I meant people who inevitably snicker rather than behaving like rational adults.

jodiodi
10-05-2007, 06:04 AM
I found most of my older patients had quaint names. One called it her monkey and another her cookie. I think it's how you're raised. My grandmother was scandalized that my aunt went to town pregnant and in shorts. She said she didn't even tell her brothers when she was going to have a baby (wouldn't even use the word pregnant). When I was a kid and didn't know better, we were watching the news and someone mentioned VD and I asked her what that was. She said it was "a disease of your privacies". Some people probably go through life without ever knowing the correct terms.

Haggis
10-05-2007, 06:18 AM
And you're not the "peanut gallery, " in my mind Haggis; I meant people who inevitably snicker rather than behaving like rational adults.

Well, of course I'm not always well behaved, but this is an interesting thread. I wonder why it is that so many folks don't understand their parts. Even when I was a kid (I'm 60 now), we had health classes. Don't they teach this stuff in schools?

Popeyesays
10-05-2007, 06:29 AM
I've been a counselor at at campus woman's center, and I assure you, there are adult women, even sexually active adult women, who really don't know where their vagina is, never mind their urethra or clitoris.

They really don't. And it's unfortunately far more common than you'd think.

I had to write instructions for using tampons for women in third world countries, using simple vocabulary that could be easily translated into other languages, and it's awfully hard to communicate spatial concepts with respect to anatomy. I know, erotica writers do it all the time, and I very much respect their skills.

Many years ago in an honors composition course, the final exam included instruction to write 400 words explaining the proper use of a ball peen hammer as if the page were to be included in a "Care Package" from the UN.

It was an interesting assignment. One guy I knew started: "This is a ball peen hammer. Do not eat it. . . ."

Regards,
Scott

Medievalist
10-05-2007, 06:32 AM
Well, of course I'm not always well behaved, but this is an interesting thread. I wonder why it is that so many folks don't understand their parts. Even when I was a kid (I'm 60 now), we had health classes. Don't they teach this stuff in schools?

I think, for whatever reason, a lot of people sort of tune it out.

Then too there's still the idea, very very common, unfortunately, that it's not "nice" for women to use correct terminology, or to know what things are and how they work, or to actually be honestly sexual and like their bodies; it's ok to flirt and snicker, of course, but not to, actually, well use the words.

It's interesting to look at the language of women with respect to bodies and sex--really really look at it. Look at an erotic passage in a fairly explicit romance (but not erotica) novel, there are lots that are SF/Romance crossovers, and analyze it like any other piece of prose. Look at the pov it's written from, which character.

And I reckon the mods of SF are gonna get annoyed with us, or want this thread to be split off.

Pthom
10-05-2007, 06:38 AM
... I reckon the mods of SF are gonna get annoyed with us, or want this thread to be split off.Getting close to it.

This is a most interesting--and valuable, on some level--discussion. But it has strayed fairly far from the purpose of this sub forum, ie: Science Fact.

If someone would like to suggest another location for it, we'll be happy to oblige and you may carry on there. :)

benbradley
10-05-2007, 06:42 AM
Well, of course I'm not always well behaved, but this is an interesting thread. I wonder why it is that so many folks don't understand their parts. Even when I was a kid (I'm 60 now), we had health classes. Don't they teach this stuff in schools?
The whole topic of "sex education" and what should be taught in "health class" is certainly a contentious issue with schools and parents, and makes those complaining that "Harry Potter teaches witchcraft" look insignificant by comparison. I had a class with handouts that mentioned (among other things) homosexuality, and the teacher told the class that if we thought our parents would be upset at the material, that we should NOT take it home. I recall news stories where parents took children out of school because of sex education, saying it should be taught at home. But of course many children don't learn anything at home.

I think quite often these things are NOT taught in schools, as teachers and administrators see the topic as a hot potato that they'd rather avoid.

Medievalist
10-05-2007, 07:14 AM
I've moved the thread here per the request of the SF mod.

J. R. Tomlin
10-05-2007, 07:29 AM
Well, darn. It's an amusing thread. Hey this forum isn't just a SF one, you know. I am SURE this topid relates to fantasy in some way.

Darn SF people are always stealing all the attention. :D

Edit: Yikes. Critical Theory and Philosophy of Language? Too boring. Bye bye.

Just kidding. I'll lurk and see if I can say something mean to someone about peanuts. ;)

But someone should do something about the bossy SF crowd. They always think they know everything. Pffffft. Fantasy is much better. We make it up as we go along.

ColoradoGuy
10-05-2007, 07:52 AM
Well. Amazing a question about anatomy ends up in Lit/Crit. But then, perhaps not so amazing. Euphemism and circumlocution as rhetorical gambits are pretty universal, especially about anything remotely related to sex. I had an old teacher in medical school who actually asked (usually) older women: ďSo, how are things down there?Ē and left it to them to divine what he meant.

About the anatomy, though. Stop reading here if youíre squeamish about these things. As several folks have said, the urethral meatus, the spot where urine comes out, is quite distinct from the vagina. On the other hand, many woman have urine wash backwards a bit up into the their vagina when they urinate. Women who have had several children also often have the opening to their uterus (the cervix) protrude (prolapse) quite far down into their vagina, changing these anatomic relationships. And, as Medievalist says, many women have little to no idea about any of this, at least until they get what we euphemistically call "honeymoon cystitis."

But back to euphemism. By incredible coincidence, Iím just now reading Steven Pinkerís new book about language, The Stuff of Thought: Language as a Window Into Human Nature. He has an interesting chapter about obscenity and the changing venues where conversations just like this one are permitted or not. From his book:

What is it about a taboo word that makes it different from a genteel synonym that refers to the same thing? . . . The [linguistic] solution is to divide the labor between euphemisms, which refer to an entity without evoking the unwanted emotions, and dysphemisms, including taboo words, for those rhetorical occasions on which we want to rub in how truly awful the entity is.

He also has interesting things to say about swearing, how we know when it is meant seriously and when it isn't.

ColoradoGuy
10-05-2007, 08:27 PM
Nice work--killed this thread dead.

robeiae
10-05-2007, 09:13 PM
Killed it for everyone else, perhaps. Now, I'm actually interested.

I haven't read the new Pinker offering--but I certainly will. The enforced dichotomy of taboo and biological is a fascinating thing, to me anyway.

Stripping away adjectives, what makes "they fucked" different from "they copulated"? Just personal preference extended through a herd-like mentality into the social system? Or is it the relationship of the statement to the speaker/writer, wherein the obscene version is seen as implying something--like a lack of class--about the speaker/writer?

And what is the value to society to have this dichotomy? Or is it a detriment?

ColoradoGuy
10-05-2007, 09:30 PM
Another wrinkle is the ultimate present-day obscenity--death and dying. I have the task of speaking to families about this fairly often. Like everyone, I used to flounder with the language. But after three decades at it I find it easy to dispense with euphemisms like "pass on," "pass away," and "let nature take its course." I've found families are relieved to be talking about death rather than passing anywhere.

This issue is like obscenity because how the language is heard is all about context and demeanor. It is best to sit down with folks, look them in the eye, and talk about death using plain English. Insensitive bluntness comes from the manner of the speaker, not the words he uses.

jodiodi
10-05-2007, 10:04 PM
I've always wondered why some words were forbidden while others, which mean the same, are permissable and Rob has a perfect example.

I've also had to discuss death with patients and their families and even my own family. I found so many dying patients want to talk about it, but their friends and families won't do it. My husband won't discuss death, like if we talk about it, it'll make it happen sooner than it normally would. Even other nurses sometimes try to avoid dying patients and their families, probably because they don't want to be reminded of their own impending death.

But words are just that: words. Phonetic representations of things, concepts and ideas. I don't understand why people get so bent out of shape about them.

Medievalist
10-06-2007, 07:13 PM
I'm going to look for the Pinker book, too, thanks for mentioning it.

I'm, as you may have guessed, very much anti-euphuism. It's not obscenity that bothers me so much, as the non-specificity of euphuisms, and then too, there's a problem in that euphuisms are designed to mask meaning, to hide it.

WendyNYC
10-06-2007, 11:46 PM
I'm going to look for the Pinker book, too, thanks for mentioning it.

I'm, as you may have guessed, very much anti-euphuism. It's not obscenity that bothers me so much, as the non-specificity of euphuisms, and then too, there's a problem in that euphuisms are designed to mask meaning, to hide it.


I agree with you, but I have to say I was a little embarassed when my 8 year old told some strangers petting our dog on the street, "My dog is having his testicles removed tomorrow. Don't you think he will look a lot better without his testicles?"

Hm. Well. She DID ask what his upcoming surgery was going to entail, I just hoped she wouldn't repeat it.

Old Hack
10-07-2007, 12:10 AM
I have a mother who talks about what will happen when "something happens to me and your dad," or, "when we Pop Off," which reduces me to hysterical laughter every time. And two children who have been brought up to realise that it's worse to call someone "stupid" than to say the word "fart": a word which reduced my euphemism-reliant mother to a whole day in bed.

I once knew a woman who, at the age of 22, thought that one had an operation to have a baby. She had no idea how babies came into the world. She was pregnant. And horrified when I explained it all to her. I remember saying, in desperation, something like, "You know how it got in there in the first place? It comes out the same way," and she wouldn't believe me. Good god.

oscuridad
10-15-2007, 03:23 AM
Keep in mind that the vagina or birth canal is merely a part of the vulva, the entire collection of female genitalia.

I thought that was a Swedish car.

and I don't think many women would take kindly to the words 'birth canal' and 'merely' in the same sentence...

Medievalist
10-15-2007, 03:26 AM
I thought that was a Swedish car.

and I don't think many women would take kindly to the words 'birth canal' and 'merely' in the same sentence...

I reckon most women find another portion of their anatomy of a heck of a lot more interest.

Haggis
10-15-2007, 04:48 AM
I thought that was a Swedish car.

and I don't think many women would take kindly to the words 'birth canal' and 'merely' in the same sentence...

If they read it as written in the sentence above, I doubt they'd have any problem with it at all.


I reckon most women find another portion of their anatomy of a heck of a lot more interest.

And most men find it all interesting. And if they're smart, they'll learn what it's called and how it works.

Marian Perera
10-15-2007, 05:58 AM
"Birth canal" makes me imagine a large body of water with a gondola drifting down it. There's a baby in the gondola.

That's a lot prettier than the reality, now that I come to think about it.

Medievalist
10-15-2007, 06:00 AM
"Birth canal" makes me imagine a large body of water with a gondola drifting down it. There's a baby in the gondola.

That's a lot prettier than the reality, now that I come to think about it.

Not gonna make remarks about a little man in a boat . . . just not.

Cath
10-15-2007, 06:19 AM
Stripping away adjectives, what makes "they fucked" different from "they copulated"? Just personal preference extended through a herd-like mentality into the social system? Or is it the relationship of the statement to the speaker/writer, wherein the obscene version is seen as implying something--like a lack of class--about the speaker/writer?

I think there's an issue of context going on here - and its something that hadn't occurred to me before, but has certainly piqued my interest - how words change, not in meaning, but in the context of the words around them.

**dashes off to see if her library has the Pinker book in stock**

J. R. Tomlin
10-16-2007, 07:20 AM
This thread is still seriously weird. :D

Melisande
10-16-2007, 05:08 PM
The whole topic of "sex education" and what should be taught in "health class" is certainly a contentious issue with schools and parents, and makes those complaining that "Harry Potter teaches witchcraft" look insignificant by comparison. I had a class with handouts that mentioned (among other things) homosexuality, and the teacher told the class that if we thought our parents would be upset at the material, that we should NOT take it home. I recall news stories where parents took children out of school because of sex education, saying it should be taught at home. But of course many children don't learn anything at home.

I think quite often these things are NOT taught in schools, as teachers and administrators see the topic as a hot potato that they'd rather avoid.

I was lucky to have a young man teaching biology when I went to school. Part of the curriculum for him was to educate the pupils about sex. Oh, he was dashing and I guess that the admiration for his appearance from us girls made him quite embarassed. But we gained from it when, after some blushing and hesitance, he finally said; "I guess you all know what sex is. Now I will educate you about your bodies, about VD, and how to protect yourselves from it and also unwanted pregnancies".

And he went on to show us anatomically correct and detailed models of the human bodies, from the abdomen and down. These models were plastic and could be taken apart. He was very scientific, calling each part it proper name and told us that using the right words would free us from embarassment.

I believe that he did us all a big favour, and I am forever grateful to him.



Stripping away adjectives, what makes "they fucked" different from "they copulated"? Just personal preference extended through a herd-like mentality into the social system? Or is it the relationship of the statement to the speaker/writer, wherein the obscene version is seen as implying something--like a lack of class--about the speaker/writer?

I might be off here but I really think there is a difference. But it has nothing to do with lacking class. It has got to do with how the act itself is performed. (And if this was going to far, I guess the moderators will see it fit to remove this post.)

talkwrite
10-16-2007, 10:06 PM
There is an inherent cultural aspect to this form of expression. Both the obscenities selected by the speaker and earlier in the thread, the female anatomy identification. I would note the development of the term "Fuck" beyond copulation to indicate downfall- "you're fucked now". Interestingly when I have to interpret that phrase from English into Spanish I have to indicate that it is an idiomatic expression. It comes up a whole bunch in witness testimony in criminal court....
As to women identifying their anatomy: there seems to be an intra family language for anatomy developed during the early phase of life. In my experience with limited English speakers in rural clinic work, it is not until many uneducated people communicate on this subject independently with a doctor that an anatomically correct term comes into common usage.

NeuroFizz
10-18-2007, 12:00 AM
I am always amazed at college aged students (of both genders) who don't know the female reproductive anatomy, and less amazed but still blown away (no pun), by how many don't know the physiology. I suspect most of them are, or have been, sexually active.

Any man who doesn't know the female anatomy must please his woman by dumb luck, or perhaps his woman has low expectations.

Marian Perera
10-18-2007, 02:30 AM
Any man who doesn't know the female anatomy must please his woman by dumb luck, or perhaps his woman has low expectations.

There's a third option. I wrote a novel where, during a sex scene, the inexperienced hero asked the heroine to show him what to do. So she took his hand and proceeded to demonstrate. Afterwards he confided that he wouldn't have known how to find her clitoris otherwise.

Moral of the story : If you think you might be lost, ask for directions. ;)

ColoradoGuy
10-18-2007, 03:08 AM
If you think you might be lost, ask for directions. ;)
Of course, as we know, not all who wander are lost, and sometimes the most fun is in the wandering. And a person can learn a lot from a skilled wanderer. Or so I've been told.

small axe
10-20-2007, 09:04 AM
Originally Posted by Medievalist http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1690319#post1690319)
Keep in mind that the vagina or birth canal is merely a part of the vulva, the entire collection of female genitalia.


Since you're bouncing it around anyway ...

If we're discussing someone who has a 'collection' of female genitalia ... this thread should be moved to the HORROR genre forum, shouldn't it?

Shades of Humanity
10-21-2007, 04:43 AM
Since you're bouncing it around anyway ...

If we're discussing someone who has a 'collection' of female genitalia ... this thread should be moved to the HORROR genre forum, shouldn't it?

Either that or Pokeman trading cards have gone x-rated.

NikeeGoddess
11-14-2007, 05:19 PM
the ultimate of humiliation when this happens:

I've had to ask co-workers to hold a flashlight (and something else) to find the urethra, especially on obese or elderly patients.
<<<the NikeeGoddess just shakes her head>>>

anyhoo - this Mary (not Frank) discussion has given me an idea to shoot out (no pun intended) to any mary who needs to fake a clean stream of urine. put clean pee in a small ziplock bag and stuff it up your vagina. this will warm it up or keep it warm until the time comes because cold pee is a definite indication of fraud. then when the time comes...