has anyone ever selfpublished?

huxley said:

I'm interested in learning more about selfpublishing.
what are the different types, and how do you sell your work? like find a distributor, or places like amazon, or ebay. or other internet book stores?

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Selling is the key.

There are places where you can get your book printed and out there at a price that while not fantastic, makes it so you can sell and can make back your money.

You can sell via Amazon, and most of the POD places give you a "store front" and will print your book as orders come in, so you don't need to carry stock. Some even offer a downloadable PDF version that fans can get for a reduced price. Great way of going global for no outlay on your part.

You can even get your book in small bricks-and-mortar comic book stores if you have the contacts.

But if you want real distribution, and to get into big stores, you need a barcode and you need Diamond.

And Diamond comes with all the same problems that getting a POD novel into Borders comes with. You need the barcode, you need the stock to supply and you need to take a sale-or-return deal.

Cons are a great way to sell your books, but they come with all the costs and problems of attending a con as a dealer.

Best way would be to get your book done and try and pitch it to an indie publisher and let them deal with all that.

He's right: go find an indie publisher. There are many of them, and some of them are very good. Most of them are very enthusiastic. It's a lot easier. Especially since Diamond is a hassle. A valuable hassle, but one nonetheless if you're coming at it on your own.

i self-publish my comic series.

at this point, when it is just a series of floppies, i haven't gone after distribution at all. i sell primarily at conventions, & to a lesser extent through my website (my website doesn't get a lot of traffic, except for around a con or when there's an interview/review somewhere. it's also not ridiculously easy to buy through my website currently, but i'm working on that).

my books are in several comic shops, but that's either because i've personally taken them in, or i met the owner at a convention.

when i have a proper graphic novel out (next year, hopefully), i'll go after diamond & amazon. diamond says your first issue has to sell a certain amount or they won't pick up your second issue, so i'd rather just have one big book to sell. also, getting isbns for 24-page comics isn't worth it.

baker & taylor is another distributor that services comic shops, book shops, & libraries. i've heard them mentioned by retailers a lot, but i've only just started looking into them, so i don't know how indie-friendly they are.

(also, recall that distributors always take a big chunk. make sure your printing costs are low enough that you're still making money afterwards. mine aren't, which is the biggest reason i haven't tried for distribution yet.)

huxley said:

thanks guys. I'm doing pre-writing on a graphic novel that I'd like to make. I'm 22 years old. I'm looking for credits rather than making money.

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OK, it's cool that you have a realistic idea about credits vs. immediate pay.

BUT...

(And if I misunderstand, please ignore or correct me) If you're ONLY PRE-writing, you really should forget about the publishing distribution issues for a while. If you're doing the art (or have someone lined up already), you have a long way to go yet; and if you're gonna try and find someone to do the art, you have a long way to go before you even have a long way to go yet.

huxley said:

So that's why I'm interested in self publishing. In the times that we live in, we have opportunities to print our books, but I'm still in the dark of where one could sell his work. I believe that there are opportunities to get your work to the eyes and hears of the public, but I'm just not awareness of them.

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And if YOU aren't aware of them, and I assume you're a regular comic-reading Johnny Public, why do you think the people who you want to read your book will be MORE aware of them?

And what makes you think that you couldn't pitch it to an indie publisher and get credits that way and STILL avoid the pain of the business-side?

If it's because you think they wouldn't go for your story, then you gotta think, why would general readers go for it if the money people wouldn't (remember, the money people will go for it based on whether they think they will make more money back off the project). So if YOU don't believe in the book, why should anyone else?

If it's simply that you have no credits, don't worry about that. If the book is good, you'll find an indie to help.

You should also not confuse getting an indie publisher to handle your book, with making money. Lots of indies (even decent sized ones) are often run as a second business where the people running the publishing house do it more for the love of comics than to get rich (doesn't mean they don't wanna get rich - just that if they break-even, have fun and make some cool books, they're generally happy). Plenty of indies will do a deal where they print your book, put it out there and if it makes money, you get a share.

And while POD doesn't have the same stink in comics that it does in regular publishing, if you have a book out through someone else's outfit, that credit is stronger than you just doing it yourself.

huxley said:

Is there some online book stores that you can sell your self published material, especially a place where the public can see the book cover and read the blurb.

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If you're dead-set on this route, you can set up your own "store-front" on Amazon. They won't stock your book, but they will deal with the digital ordering and such like, then just pass the fulfillment on to you to handle.

Beyond that, you have the on-line services provided by the company that prints your book. Lulu, Comixpress, Ka-Blam, etc.

BUT...

(again)

If no-one knows you're there, no-one buys your book, and JUST having a book available isn't THAT much of a credit. Or put another way, sending a link to Marvel to show your book is listed on Lulu and letting them see the cover and blurb will not have Joe Q calling you up.

Getting the book published is only the start. You'll need to buy yourself copies to send out to places for review, to show as samples and to just create some buzz. You'll want to hit-up all the local comicbook stores and try to get them to take your book (some will take a couple of copies (if you're lucky) on sale-or-return, which means that in all likelihood, you get those same books back in six months, looking like they were used for street-hockey when the puck disappeared). You also need to hit the cons. Get a table in the Indie Island section, and deal with people walking past, picking up your book, flicking through it, saying it's nice, then walking on (and remember, every time you need the bathroom, or food, your table is unmanned). You'll also want to join as many comic-book forums as possible to get word of your book out there to potential buyers and fans, but you'll also have to deal with people knocking you for doing that and some forums out-right discourage open pushing of your book, while others ask that you do it subtly.

Now if you pitch your book to an indie, all the above problems are their problems. However, they have either dealt with them before, or they have mechanisms set-up to resolve them already AND have a presence at cons, on-line and even in stores that give you a head-start.

OK, the above makes it all sound fairly bleak. And it IS a hard business to crack, but not impossible. But given how hard it is, why make it harder for yourself. Worse case scenario, you can fall back on the POD yourself route, but don't go for that first. What's that cornball saying, "Aim for the stars and if you miss, you might still hit the moon"? Same idea applies.

huxley said:

Is there some online book stores that you can sell your self published material, especially a place where the public can see the book cover and read the blurb.

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Click on the top link in the signature below.

Comics are quite different from books. Artist-produced indies are very much the norm and there are quite a few online distributors, cons etc.

huxley said:

so comics have a really grass roots operation going for aspiring comic creators. I should inform myself more about the indie publishers.

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Dude, if you wanna break in, you need to know as much as you can about everything.

Please don't take that as a slam, I merely mean that with any new venture you explore, especially on you aspire to work in, or even maybe make a career out of, it kinda behoves you to know as much about it all as you can.

The web will help, lots there on the info front. But reading the material of contemporaries, going to cons, talking to publishers, working cons - they all give you a better edge.

One thing's for sure. You don't just have an idea, write that down and bang, comic.

I wish!

huxley said:

so comics have a really grass roots operation going for aspiring comic creators. I should inform myself more about the indie publishers.

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Indy Planet and Ka-Blam are alternatives to the tedious and frequently pointlessly prolonged submission route with publishers.

Even with most indie publishers you have to do most of the promotion and marketing yourself anyway, so why not own the whole thing?

Axler said:

Even with most indie publishers you have to do most of the promotion and marketing yourself anyway, so why not own the whole thing?

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Oh I don't know...

Maybe 'cos the publisher can get you through Diamond?

Maybe because the publisher has a 10x10 or a 20x20 at San Diego and you'll be lucky if you can afford a table on the edge of the con center?

Maybe because the publisher can run off stock to hold in hand and you have to do POD?

The all seem like pretty decent reasons to me.

Now if I'm going for something that's basically a vanity project, sure, what they hell. I can do a nice little run, give the odd copy here and there, sell a couple more and then a nice little dust-bunny-run with what I have left.

But if I'm working to get my name and my stories out there I need more. If I'm starting from scratch, then I should be willing to make some kinda pay-off against that. And if it means I share rights with a decent indie, so be it. It's really only a major issue if I pick a bad publisher (and I can be careful and read the small print and walk away if it pushes me beyond where I'm willing to go) or I only have one idea. And if I only have one idea, odds are the vanity route would be a better option anyways.

I should also point out that Image does not take rights. You own your property 100 percent. That said, you have to be awesome to get an Image deal.

wordmonkey said:

Oh I don't know...

Maybe 'cos the publisher can get you through Diamond?

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So can you. And you can also get yourself into stores other than comics shops.

Buy an ISBN.

An indie publisher still has to submit review copies of the work to Diamond before they agree to carry it. As it is, if an indie publisher is soliciting a new comic, they have to present four completed issues before Diamond accepts it...providing of course, it meets their standards.

That's the equivalent of a graphic novel, so if you and an artist have already gone that route, it makes just as much sense to get an ISBN and sell it to Diamond yourself...and with an ISBN, you can solicit brick-and-mortar bookstores, like Barnes and Noble.

wordmonkey said:

Maybe because the publisher has a 10x10 or a 20x20 at San Diego and you'll be lucky if you can afford a table on the edge of the con center?

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Maybe the indie publisher does, most indies don't have much more than the table on the perimeter themselves.

And if the publisher can afford the giant display space (and most indie publishers can't), it doesn't necessarily follow your work will be prominently displayed.

Not to mention that most indie publishers can barely afford to get themselves set up at San Diego, much less fly the creative teams of their books there.

And so if you have to pay your own way out there anyhow...

wordmonkey said:

Maybe because the publisher can run off stock to hold in hand and you have to do POD?

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Once again, maybe they can, maybe they can't. Regardless, you have to rely on someone else to get it done instead of taking care of it yourself.

Not to mention how incredibly loooooong the submission process can be most of the time.

wordmonkey said:

The all seem like pretty decent reasons to me.

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Yeah, they do to me too. Providing those reasons are actual reality and not assumptions, hopes or based on empty promises.

If you've plunged into the comics field 100 percent, then you'll have to accept the fact that most indie publishers aren't much better set up than you are, that they themselves are basically vanity presses with a company name and logo slapped onto the covers of their publications.

You'll also have to accept the fact that far and away the majority of line titles of individual indie comics simply make no money, especially when the publisher is relying on the direct market as its main source of revenue.

And if your book is carried by Diamond, and it doesn't maintain a level of sales they set, then they drop you and you're back to square one.

Most indie books are dropped by Diamond after the second issue.

Therefore, if you and an artist are starting from scratch and come up with either a graphic novel or even four completed issues before you see a dime from anybody, I'm just suggesting you might as well do your own legwork and not rely on somebody else to do basically the same thing you can.

If you have a completed work that's the equivalent of a GN, why spend God knows how many months submitting it to indie publishers when for far less money than you'd spend getting to San Diego to show it around, you can have it printed and sent to Diamond yourself?

I find that a much more reasonable alternative than getting involved with a publisher who could just as easily tell you everything is peachy-keen one day and be out of business and ducking creditors the next.

Obviously, if you're trying to break into the so-called comics industry as a page-rate scripter, the situation is different. That's basically applying for a job.

But if you aspire to own what you create and are working toward a completed work with an artist, whether you envision it as a mini-series or a graphic novel, then it pays to be aware of the available alternatives.

I was gonna quote and comment on Axler's stuff above, but there's very little point.

I advised that you get to know the business and this perfectly illustrates why. Two very conflicting opinions on the best way to go.

I'm working with a couple of indies that are not the vanity press kind. They're serious and they wanna be players in the field. They have money behind them and they work it. They have no delusions that they're in the same league as Marvel or DC. They don't even think they're in there with Dark Horse or Image. But they are not the bottom-feeders Axler seems to see so much of.

Let's be honest, there ARE a lot of little, indies, who are useless. But to lable the entire indie scene as such would be like reading Axler's posts and assuming all comic book writers are miserable buggers who were screwed and have managed to attain a balance outlook on life by maintaining a chip on both shoulders (I kid because I love ). Or by reading all my posts and assuming that all comic book writers are indie fans and believe that's the only way to go, 'cos gosh darn it, that's working for me.

The crappy indies Axler (quite rightly warns about) ARE out there. But if they can get you a book out, you're a step up the ladder. And THAT'S the key. They are a step. They use you for your talents, you use them for their business. They want to make money off you, you want to use them to get to the next level. You don't stay with them. Best of all, they introduce you to others in the business who can then help you network up a little more.

But at the end of the day, do you wanna be a comic writer, or do you wanna work in comic publishing fulfillment? And if this is your second job, is working the phones; laying out cash for books; arranging delivery; arranging your con table; arranging the shipping of your stock for the con; ensuring you have cover on your table/booth so you can use the bathroom; sending out your review copies; and basically doing ALL the leg work, the BEST use of your time and resources? Or is it better to use what time you have to WRITE. And it's a helluva lot cheaper and way less stressful to just show up at a con and go sit at someone else's table/booth and sign and schmooze for a few hours. And as an added bonus, you get to wander around and say "Hi" to Eric L, or Joe Q, or Dan R if they're there - do you think if you're tied to your table, they'll come and find you?

Let me be very clear, you CAN do it all yourself JUST like Axler says, but what he doesn't mention is that while you can do all the Diamond stuff yourself, and with an ISBN number you can get in any book store (which is the biggest advantage to a GN), you still have to abide by the seller's rules. You have to be able to supply the number of books they want. You have to supply them at a price discounted to a degree that they say (which means you have to print a massive run to make it cost effective). You have to also agree to work sale or return, but on a much bigger scale than just sending some books to the local comic store 'cos you know the owner.

BUT...

Like I said, do your homework. Whatever you do, DON'T take Axler's word on this as the gold standard. Whatever you do, DON'T take MY word on this as the gold standard. Work on your writing and while you do that, do your research. Cost out the production, but make sure you know all the facts - and get those from the people who do the business (they'll be happy to quote you and explain what they need from you and what they can do for you).

And at the same time, go look at indie publishers as well. If the publisher has ONE title, odds are it's the kinda thing Axler mentions where it is a vanity press gig. If you can find out that the people running the company are also creative team members, that too might make you wanna pause - but again, the titles (or lack thereof) will offer clues. If the business people do NOTHING creative in the books, that's a much better option. Go to cons, talk to people, get a vibe for them.

Just use common sense. Either way, good luck.

Well...since I do creative-type stuff for a living, I don't view the so-called comics industry through spectacles tinted with Dr. Martin's Dyes.

What Word characterizes as chips on my shoulders are actually the ravens of pragmatism perched there.

This is my work and so I try to work smart, drawing on my experience in not just the comics field but real publishing as well.

And what most of my experience in the comics field has taught me...is that if you can possibly do it yourself, then do it.

You'll be better off, regardless of whether you can't leave your con table to get an autographed copy of Savage Dragon #12.

Axler said:

Well...the main difference between me and Word is that I do creative-type stuff for a living and therefore I don't view the so-called comics industry through spectacles tinted with Dr. Martin's Dyes.

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I didn't know that Doc Martins did eyeglass tints. Granted, you get some of those ones that lace half-way up your shin, there are a lot of eye-holes, so there might be a market for specs, all those eyes and all those boots, there must be the odd astigmatism in there to exploit.

Another field to explore when one could be WRITING.

Axler said:

What Word characterizes as chips on my shoulders are actually the ravens of pragmatism perched there.

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Maybe if you'd been wearing the tinted glasses you think I have, the ravens might not have poked your eyes out and you'd see that it isn't all minnows or monsters.

OOW! Was that really a clever allusion to Odin? And the way he had the Ravens? Should we burn something in your honor? Maybe if one of the ravens did peck out an eye, you'd also be able to see the future, then tell us just how hopeless an ambition working in comics is.

If it wasn't, then I just made a clever allusion to Odin, so maybe things should be burned as an offering to me. I favor steak, just for the record. And not too burned.

Axler said:

This is my work and so I try to work smart, drawing on my experience in not just the comics field but real publishing as well.

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Then why do you suggest that the OP, who I am guessing DOESN'T work in the field NOT write? That is what writers do, isn't it? Are you a writer or a publisher, dude?

Axler said:

And what most of my experience in the comics field has taught me...is that if you can possibly do it yourself, then do it.

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There speaks the voice of experience and ego. My experience has taught me that if I can find someone who can do the job better than I can, it's best to use that resource.

Axler said:

You'll be better off, regardless of whether you can't leave your con table to get an autographed copy of Savage Dragon #12.

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Who said anything about getting autographs? Are you seriously claiming that the OP go to a con, get their table and expect that the creator (a publisher no less - or since he published his own comic, is he a vanity guy too?) of Savage Dragon #12 will seek him out and help his career? That any publisher will do that?

I'm also not blind ('cos I take care of my vision, tinted glasses you understand) to the irony that the scorn you hold for those vanity publishers who do just their own book and wanna be indies, is somehow reduced when you do that yourself, or council others to do the same.

We disagree.

You hold the "so called" (your usual emphasis, not mine) business in contempt, we all get it. Maybe in 20 years I'll be as bitter and raven-ladened. But I hope not.

Do your research, Huxley. Find out the best use of your skills, talents and resources and work smart based on what you can do. But if you wanna get on, write. Doesn't matter how slick a salesman you are, how many contacts you have, how much you can afford to pay for stock, or artist talent. If the writing sucks, you're not going anywhere.

So write, dude. And enjoy the ride.

Here is the simple reason why I would go with a full-fledged publisher -- either of comic books, or of prose books -- than going the self-published route.

Because I'm a writer, and I'm very bad at many things beyond that. This includes building bookshelves, remembering not to leave my son in the other room, drinking my tea before it gets cold...promoting myself, pushing my work, doing the publisher end of things.

Ultimately, that's why. Because I just want to write, and i want someone else to mess around with the other stuff. If I do some promotion, great. Even there, I prefer they tell me "Go here, do an interview" and I go, rather than me having to spend a long morning hunting for a place to do an interview, you know?

So that's it. Some people go the self-publishing route very happily and enjoy it and do wonderfully. Good for them, honestly. But some people, like me, just want to write. That's what publishers are for, on my end.

PeeDee said:

Here is the simple reason why I would go with a full-fledged publisher -- either of comic books, or of prose books -- than going the self-published route.

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So that's it. Some people go the self-publishing route very happily and enjoy it and do wonderfully. Good for them, honestly. But some people, like me, just want to write. That's what publishers are for, on my end.

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And that is exactly the point I was drowning in piss and vinegar. Thnaks for the moment of clarity.

Now, as PeeDee will confirm, CLEARLY I need a nap, 'cos I'm getting awfully cranky (could also be I need a clean diaper - either way). I'm outta here!

Since I never even alluded to Hux not writing--that's purely your weird subjective spin on it--I really don't know what you're talking about.

He brought up self-publishing and that's what I addressed. You're the one who took it off in the direction of submitting to publishers.

I speak with the voice of experience and a degree of realism, since you seem intent on reinterpreting my statements for the sake of your own ego.

I stated: "If you can possibly do it yourself, then do it."

You stated: "If I can find someone who can do the job better than I can, it's best to use that resource."

Explain to me how those two statements are polar opposites.

Obviously, they are not.

Dude, I'm amazed you can sit at a keyboard with all the spin you put into what you read.

Your purely subjective interpretation of my comment about the poor financial resources of most indie publishers is that I hold them in contempt.

That's nonsense. Stating the facts as I know them about most indie publishers, regardless of whether it upsets your preconceived notion of the comics field, is not a prima facie indictment of it.

Do you see the Emperor's new clothes, too, or what?

Do you always read into instead out of?

And I qualify my references to the comics industry with "so called", because it is patently NOT an industry unto itself.

Not no way, not no how, regardless of what retailers and vendors and even editors might want to claim.

You know...

You made personal remarks to me and when I respond in a similar vein, you decide to strike back by creating an alternate world meaning for my posts.

Uncool, dude.

Axler said:

You made personal remarks to me and when I respond in a similar vein, you decide to strike back by creating an alternate world meaning for my posts.

Uncool, dude.

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Dude, I ragged on ya. I also ragged on myself. You had the downer vibe and by your reference, I had the "little miss sunshine" vibe.

I made a poor assumption. I ragged on you. You should see the things I write about PeeDee but he just rags on back. My poor assumption was that you would see that I was being somewhat silly.

So if me being flippant offended you, then please accept my unconditional apology. I will make every attempt to just be completely straight with you from this point on. No funnies, no jabs, no nothing. OK?

Sooooo, to recap:

1) Self-publishing is good

2) So are regular publishers.

3) Research both heavily. THen ask yourself very honestly how much work you want to do, beyond your writing?

4) If you want to just write, then I would go with a publisher. Long submission times are no problem, you have more time to write.

5) If you want to go it alone, which can be fun, then go it alone...if you're comfortable with spending days doing lots of stuff that isn't writing related.

6) Go with what works best. Ask for advice. Take it all with a grain of salt.

7) Wave your hands in the air like you just don't care.

8) As you fly by the people who start to look and stare.

No apology necessary.

I understood you were being flippant.

So was I, particularly with my Savage Dragon comment.

You don't have to be completely straight-up...just don't put words in my mouth, figuratively speaking.

I have enough trouble managing the ones I put in there on my own.

How come no one ever hugs me at the end of these threads? Honestly. Where is the love? For me I mean.

I'd hug you Pete, but I don't have $5 on me to pay you. and I'm afraid we'd wind up making out again.
I don't want to walk through the halls of OP with our names up on the wall of shame.

How about a hand shake instead?