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jnesvold

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I am trying to write a novel about a bunch of scientists who go undersea for a couple of months to explore the ocean bottom, and need some help figuring out just exactly what types of scientists should go. I'm writing from the perspective of a botanist, and want the merry cast to number around 10, with different aspects of the scientific community represented.

Yes, this book could totally suck, and may in fact never see the light of day, but I would appreciate some assistance anyway.
 

Priene

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How about

oceanographer (studying the currents),
marine biologist (specialises in blind crustaceans),
ecologist (interested in the entire sea-floor system),
geologist (maritime rock formations),
climatologist (looking for the effects of sea-bottom changes on weather systems),
chemist (chemical changes in sea rocks),
palaeontologist (tracking a relative of extinct sea-critter),
vulcanologist (under-sea earthquakes),
engineer (it's his new submarine, after all),
psychologist (effects of extreme isolation on group of disparate scientists)

Should be a fun voyage.
 

jnesvold

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Should be a fun voyage.

For some. Others...no. But thank you. Nice list of viable positions. I had never thought to put the engineer on board, but had planned on a couple of mechanics, cooks, medical staff, and a therapist.
 

job

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For some. Others...no. But thank you. Nice list of viable positions. I had never thought to put the engineer on board, but had planned on a couple of mechanics, cooks, medical staff, and a therapist.

Remember ... this is a very small team. If you were sending ten folks down, (at some expense,) to the ocean bottom for several months to do scientific work, you would only send folks who could DO scientific work.

That means biologists, botanists, hydrologists, marine microbiologists, ... whatever.

No cooks. They take turns cooking or stick the grad student with the job.

No medical staff. That's what the radio is for, and that first aid kit. One
or more of your folks probably has advanced first aid training.

No therapist. Ye gods. This is not the Starship Enterprise with a crew of 438.


One, probably two, people would have been trained to work the radio.

Everybody would be an expert diver.


You would have one person who could operate and readjust and do on-site repair of the physical plant. This is the sole exception to the 'everybody is a scientist' rule. This guy might be a specialized and trained engineer. Or he might just be a handy-with-a-wrench guy who knows how to unplug an underseas toilet.

Ideally, your engineer type would also have projects to keep him busy. He might well collect samples or do observations on behalf of scientists who do not come to conduct their own research.

Your engineer would probably be directly employed by whoever 'owned' the undersea rig ...
as opposed to the scientists who would probably come from a number of institutions and pay for the privilege of using the undersea set up.


Maybe lookit here, here here, and many similar to gain a flavor of isolated research communities.
 
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veinglory

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I agree that support staff would be unlikely. But one of them might well have psychological/psychiatric training and some sedatives as a precaution.
 

job

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I agree that support staff would be unlikely. But one of them might well have psychological/psychiatric training and some sedatives as a precaution.

I don't say it's impossible that you might have a
marine microbiologist/trained clinical psychologist combination.
Or an oil geologist/psychiatric nurse combination.

But it's kinda like saying ... the geometry teacher also just happens to be a trained court stenographer.
It's not impossible this would happen,
but if you're using this as a plot device, it will probably seem contrived..


In terms of sedatives ....

I could see a very complete first aid kit containing injectable morphia. So you could maybe knock somebody out that way.

But I'd be leery of any scenario that involves the expectation you'd give someone sedatives in an environment like an undersea research facility.


First off, your folk who do this research on the sea floor are going to be experienced deep water divers.
This argues a certain toughness.
Deep sea divers who have a tendency to panic are called 'the late'.

And a pressurized environment is just innately filled with hazard.
This is going to be a small facility. Not a big place with 'safe; areas.
Nobody's going to go down prepared to hand out medication that might make George careless about dogging down the hatch cover or watching the oxygen gauge.


If the plot calls for a big supply of valium down below, it'd be better to have someone bring his own private stash for recreational purposes than to make it an official medication that's kept on hand.
 
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Mike Martyn

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Consider the average complement of the Space Shuttle. Different environment but a hostile environment. Most astronauts can perform two or more functions, ie: maintainance and navigation. So should your submarine crew.

It allows for redundancy plus it allows the fellow who is the marine biologist with the neferious scheme to have someone looking over his shoulder who might discover the neferious scheme and thwart him or, even better get killed thereby pushing everyone to suspect everyone else.
 

job

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Consider the average complement of the Space Shuttle. Different environment but a hostile environment. Most astronauts can perform two or more functions, ie: maintainance and navigation. So should your submarine crew.

It allows for redundancy plus it allows the fellow who is the marine biologist with the neferious scheme to have someone looking over his shoulder who might discover the neferious scheme and thwart him or, even better get killed thereby pushing everyone to suspect everyone else.


You got two different paradigms here.

You got the military. A NASA mission or military expedition or space ship crew
can draw upon literally tens of thousands of manpower choices.
They can demand someone who is both a nuclear engineer and a medical doctor to fill a particular slot.

The folks they send up into space are not research scientists.

Astronauts are degreed technicians who are competent to follow directions and perform experiments in several fields. But these are experiments they did not themselves design and will not interpret or report upon.

So the military model is to send out multitrained pawns


Most marine research, however, is done through universities and research institutes. It is civilian and free-enterprise.

The folks who staff the distant and uncomfortable outposts of science (whether it's the sea bottom or the wastes of the tundra or the canopy of the tropical rain forest,) are typically the PhDs and grad students who work in the field. They're doing their own original research. They're the bishops and knights and rooks.

Typically, where there's an expensive 'platform' to maintain, like a ship or an arctic base,
it is staffed by the consortium or institute (or sometimes arm of the government) that owns the physical plant.
That solid and expensive machinery is manned by experts in ... well ... running a ship or keeping the airfield clear in a blizzard.
They are not scientists or trained in science. They keep the winch running and don't much care what is being dredged up.

Scientists are awarded fellowships to use the platform, or they straightforwardly pay for use with money from their grant or their university.


So that's the difference. The military model is that the guys who run the platform are trained to perform scientific experiments. The civilian model is that research scientists pay to use the platform and run the experiments themselves.
 

DraperJC

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The Engineer is also an excellent POV character that can stand in for the reader. He doesn't get the heavy science even though he's pretty sharp himself so things will have to be explained. He or she will befriend your botanist character and absolutely must be of the opposite sex. Be careful of the MacGyver stereotype. (go rent Six Days, Seven Nights with Harrison Ford) Also beware of the Evil Corporation That Sacrifices the Scientific Team In Order to Get the Maguffin stereotype. (go rent Aliens with Sigourney Weaver)
 

job

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I was suggesting some training not a full double act--like they do with astronauts.

What we have here is not an inability for one person to learn two tasks.

What we have here is two totally different ways of organizing a project.

************

The space station way:

Colonel Winters -- George, we've decided you'll learn Russian for this fifteen minute docking sequence. You'll be starting an eight month course in intensive Russian at Monterrey next Monday.

George -- Yessir.


*********
The biological research way;

Dr. Witherspoon -- Oh. I understand we transfer all the equipment in Los Dogos Perdue. Does anybody here speak Spanish?

Grad Student One -- I took Spanish in High School. I got a 'B'.

Grad Student Two -- I knew a girl from Baja once.

Dr. W. -- Good. You two are in charge of the bags. And, for God's sake, remember to bring a Spanish dictionary. Now, about the Riechenbackker staining procedure ...
**************


Research guys who go on these trips are like ... dedicated ...
to their fly maggots or lepidoptera or sea slugs or whatever it is.
It is their life.
They are not, willingly, going to leave their beloved slugs to go waste a year studying psychology.

Who is going to tell Dr. Witherspoon, or Dr Stanton or Dr Yelling to leave his work in marine algae, tidal flux, or whale dentition and go study water chemistry?
Which they will learn just enough about to be somebody else's lab technician?

-- Why would they do it?
-- Who is going to pay for that training?
-- Who is going to make up for the time they lose when they're not writing tenure track papers in their own field?
-- The grant they get from the university does not have anything to do with water chemistry, only whale dentition. The folks who wrote that grant are going to be annoyed if the time and materials they pay for are wasted on water chemistry.

-- Now you could set it up this way. If Dr. Witherspoon is putting together a crew and he has four or five grad students at hand and part of his project needs water chemistry, he may order his sea slug grad student, (studying, not resembling, one hopes,) to learn some water analysis and run those tests. He might tell everyone they have to take a red cross course.

But demand that a grad student take a year to learn nursing or psychology so he'd get picked to go on an expedition -- no responsible and honest adviser would do that to his student.
 

veinglory

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My experience (which is of researchers who go to Antartica) differs. Some scientists are tightly focussed, others are not. Some even sideline as writers, of all things.
 

Mike Martyn

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You got two different paradigms here.

You got the military. A NASA mission or military expedition or space ship crew
can draw upon literally tens of thousands of manpower choices.
They can demand someone who is both a nuclear engineer and a medical doctor to fill a particular slot.

The folks they send up into space are not research scientists.

Astronauts are degreed technicians who are competent to follow directions and perform experiments in several fields. ... Rest of post deleted...

*************************************************

With respect, I suggest that if you are going into a hostile environment be it vacuum, under the pressure of a hundred atmospheres of water or 8000 feet up a mountain, you had better operate with a measure of, dare I say it, military efficiency.

As to the astronauts' training, they are not mere technicians as you would have it. Most of them, in addition to their astronaut training (analogous if you will to dive training) have advanced university degrees in a whole suite of different disciplines. Check out their curriculum vitae.

Also NASA is not a branch of the military. The pilots have come from the military but many of them have strictly civilian backgrounds and many of them have engaged in various fields of research.
 

jnesvold

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My basic back story is that this is a project funded by a large corporation for mostly publicity purposes, staffed by a team of scientists who are dedicated to their respective fields and who fought for the right to go on this trip, mostly for the prestige it would bring each to his or her particular field. I mean, take the botanist...he spends a year down on the ocean floor and can discover new species, name them, write papers on them. So for the scientists, it's either "I went for the betterment of my field" or "I'm an egotistical bastard who doesn't think anyone else deserves to do this or would do it right."

So, no cooks and no therapist. That will allow me about 12-15 openings on the ship. That'll give me ten scientists and five military-type guys to run the ship.
 
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job

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With respect, I suggest that if you are going into a hostile environment be it vacuum, under the pressure of a hundred atmospheres of water or 8000 feet up a mountain, you had better operate with a measure of, dare I say it, military efficiency..


The question of whether the military or the civilians are better at running research stations is one of the great standbys of modern drama, without which we would never be able to enjoy lines like ...

"Dr. Fletcher's gone berserk. He broke under the strain."

and

"But you can't shoot them, Colonel. Just because they don't look like us doesn't mean they're hostile."



In practice,
perfectly civilian teams set up tents in the high Gobi, travel through headhunter country into the heart of the Amazon, sample volcanic gases in the arctic and dive to the bottom of Lake Bakkal in bitty little subs
every day of the week.



As to the astronauts' training, they are not mere technicians as you would have it. Most of them, in addition to their astronaut training (analogous if you will to dive training) have advanced university degrees in a whole suite of different disciplines.


Astronauts do not retire from astronauting to take up positions at the Max Planck Insitute.

Skilled technicians with PhDs watch the computer screens on the cyclotron and make sure the gigglefrocktor is himmelfarbing .
Research scientists design the experiment going on inside.

Of ... say ... 8000 folks with advanced degrees in any field of science, maybe 200 of them do any research at all. About 20 do original and important research.

And it's one of those 20 guys
you want to send downwater for a year.

That is why yer astronauts can perform in several technical fields. They are the button pushers, not the button designers. It is (relatively) easy to learn to be a competent button pusher in two fields.

I could use different terms.
What is important here is to draw a distinction between folks with good scientific training who follow directions
and folks who do research and give the directions.



Also NASA is not a branch of the military. The pilots have come from the military but many of them have strictly civilian backgrounds and many of them have engaged in various fields of research.

Of course NASA is not part of the military. If it were, the United States would be militarizing space. The United States has signed international protocols and promised not to do this.
We all know that space flight and space research is an entirely non-military enterprise, directed by civilians.
 

veinglory

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It seems to me that the expedition would be part military only if the goal was. Yes there is military research but not much these days that is abstract and exploratory.
 

Mike Martyn

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Quote"
Of course NASA is not part of the military. If it were, the United States would be militarizing space. The United States has signed international protocols and promised not to do this.
We all know that space flight and space research is an entirely non-military enterprise, directed by civilians.[/quote]

***********************************

Point taken. Nudge,nudge, wink, wink!
 
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