Subtle humor vs. shouting humor.

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Derrick NoMAD

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I would like to know what some of the humor writers here think of these two series and the writing styles in general.

Basically this is "Friends" (tv series) vs. "The Office" (tv series).

When writing comedy usually it doesn't matter as long as you get a laugh. Most of your elements of story can be thrown out the window as long as you get the laugh. Character traits can be suspended if it serves the joke. Characters can be flat as long as for this joke it serves the purpose. The objective is achieved in any means necessary.

"Friends" usually sacrifices character and character development to deliver jokes. IE: all the cast members will act like kids, or a character will deliver a line in an uncharacteristic way (usually bold or loud) or even do something out of character as long as it is ironic. One of the Thanksgiving dinners had all of the friends heads stuck in a door and they all acted like "talking heads."

This is a classic example of "shouting." The jokes are over the top and story is a series of jokes strung together ("Friends" does a very clever job of making this rather seamless -"Family Guy" doesn't even try to create transitions from joke to joke).

The advantage to this style is that most people get the jokes. The downside is that it can be really cheesy.

"The Office:" often times the punchlines are delivered in camera shots and 2 second reactions with no dialogue delivered. The stories are much more complex and delivered in subtle ways to the point where the audience barely realizes that there is a B story going on at the same time as the A story.

One character had his stapler put into a jello mold. When he and the boss confronted another coworker to ask if he did it -the accused denied it but at the time the accused was eating a jello cup. You see the jello cup for like 5 seconds, but it is hilarious IF you catch it.

The advantage to this style is that jokes are way more complex and thus don't ask to sacrifice character development. The downside is that a portion of the audience is not quick enough to grasp the humor.

What are your opinions on these style choices. I'm currently working on a project and I'm trying to find what my target audience needs stylistically. I want to reach as many people as possible with my humor, but I don't necessarily want to sacrifice my character development.


 
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JeanneTGC

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Derrick, is your project aimed for a TV audience, a movie audience, or a readership -- in other words, are you writing a television script, a movie script, a humorous essay, a short story, a novella, or a novel?

Hard to answer in a way that might help you without that information.
 

Ziljon

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I think choice number two, The Office style is in vogue now. Take "Flight of the Conchords" the incredibly funny HBO series as an example. Sometimes a joke is delivered with just a change of camera focus.

Brilliant!
 

Derrick NoMAD

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Derrick, is your project aimed for a TV audience, a movie audience, or a readership -- in other words, are you writing a television script, a movie script, a humorous essay, a short story, a novella, or a novel?

Hard to answer in a way that might help you without that information.


Thank you both for taking the time to read the whole thing.
This is for a readership. A webcomic to be exact.
I will take what I'm learning on this subject and apply it to what I'm working on, but I am interested in this as subject by itself.

Who tends to like subtle humor more? Is there a demographic? an age range?

I know that I like subtle humor but I'm thinking that I need to switch gears and do "over the top" because I suspect it has a wider appeal.
 

Derrick NoMAD

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I think choice number two, The Office style is in vogue now. Take "Flight of the Conchords" the incredibly funny HBO series as an example. Sometimes a joke is delivered with just a change of camera focus.

Brilliant!


I love Flight of the Conchords. However did you know that their series had low ratings? HBO still picked them up for a second season though because of internet buzz.

They do a mix of over the top and sneak in a lot of subtle stuff. I suspect a lot of their subtle complex humor is lost.
 

SherryTex

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I love reading a writer who thinks about set up and structure in humor. Three years ago, the fantastic four did a series, Big Stuff,small stuff, Unthinkable, with humor just sprinkled in there that was a glorious gorgeous read.

The great thing about comics is you can occasionally switch from Office to Friends in format, as long as you don't forsake the mainstay of your audience for too long.
 

Simple Living

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I have very strong feelings about the "humor" used in society today. I quit watching television several years ago, partially because of the "humor" we've come to accept/allow.

The absolute worst offenders, and the most idiotic of "humor", belongs to the Dumb and Dumber and Beavis and Butthead crowd. How is this garbage funny? It contributes to the dumbing down of America and encourages America's bad reputation in other countries. It's moronic, stereotypical, drunken fratguy, burpin' beer-bellyed, immature, juvenile, nose-pickin' pothead garbage. It's embarrassing to live in a country where this kind of humor produces box-office hits.

Then you have the insulting and most horrific... I won't even call it "humor," like South Park.
Why do we need to get our laughter and entertainment at someone else's expense? In today's society, if someone says something we don't like, we sue them. So why is it funny when it's not being said about us? This vomit often uses graphic, vulgar language to accentuate itself. It's morbid and a sad reflection on where society is heading.

As I said, I haven't watched television in years because it was like having an open sewer line running through the middle of my living room. Well, I don't have to lift the lid off a sewer to know what's inside. I saw a few episodes of the BBC version of The Office and thought it was a milder version of Dumb and Dumber. Friends had some decent humor until everything turned to insults and sexual humor.

So, that's my rant about so-called humor today. So-called humorists could learn great lessons from Erma Bombeck, Garrison Keillor, and Barbara Johnson, just to name a few. Good, decent, clean humor that's actually funny and appropriate. Humor you aren't embarrassed to listen to with your grandmother and won't have to worry about your children hearing. But, what's to be expected in a country whose moral fiber and character is rapidly being flushed away with all of it's toilet humor?

For humor writers, there is an incredibly huge market out there for family-oriented, clean humor that you're completely overlooking. If you think I'm wrong, just do a little research. It shows that much of society is getting tired of what's been passing as humor for the last 10 to 20 years.
 
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JeanneTGC

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Thank you both for taking the time to read the whole thing.
This is for a readership. A webcomic to be exact.
I will take what I'm learning on this subject and apply it to what I'm working on, but I am interested in this as subject by itself.

Who tends to like subtle humor more? Is there a demographic? an age range?

I know that I like subtle humor but I'm thinking that I need to switch gears and do "over the top" because I suspect it has a wider appeal.
I like a wide variety of humor. I'm with Keith -- stupid humor, mean just for the sake of being mean humor -- those I don't like at all. I don't mind profanity ('cause I have the mouth of a longshoreman and am not a hypocrite) but I do like it to actually FIT the humor. Standup is different from a "show".

As for subtle versus over the top -- again, I like both as long as the over the top isn't moronic and the subtle isn't so subtle that no one but the writer and three of his closest friends will get it. Too many in-jokes mean I am not IN on the joke, and that's not a good way to go.

I don't think humor falls into the demographics you're looking at. Something like Friends was hugely popular -- more than young, white, twentysomethings were watching it.

For a comic, I expect funny, but I'm great with subtle. Dilbert's subtle, as an example. At least, I think it's subtle humor, because no one is screaming, "LOOK, it's a JOKE!" The X-Men have humor sprinkled throughout, so does Spiderman. So does Batman, and if the Dark Knight can crack a joke here or there, anyone can.

My suggestion as a writer is to do what YOU find funny. If you're faking it, then that will show to the readers, they'll pick up the falseness. If you write what you think is funny, then you'll find an audience who agree with you.

Our own Riddler has a comic. You might want to check it out -- can't recall if the link is in his sig or not, but just PM him and I'm sure he'll send you the link. I think it's a good example to follow. Not everyone will find his stuff funny, but enough people WILL. (I adore Riddler's humor, but that's a whole 'nother story.)

So, bottom line -- write how YOU want to write, and refine from there. Don't try to write what you THINK someone eles will find funny. If you aren't laughing, no one else will be, either.
 

Simple Living

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So, bottom line -- write how YOU want to write, and refine from there. Don't try to write what you THINK someone eles will find funny.

This is very true and applies to writing as a whole. Write what you would like to read. Write what you want. This was J.K. Rowlings technique and it's agreed upon by most editors. If you try to find a fad or trend to bust in on, you'll probably flop.

To sum up my feelings about humor: It should be something you wouldn't be ashamed/embarrassed to listen to/watch with your sweet ol' grandmother and your own small children.
 

larocca

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According to Mencken, nobody ever went broke underestimating the American public. In other words, write stupid shit. But me, well, I'd rather be broke, because I just can't do it. As a reader, I prefer my humor subtle, so that's what I write. You've gotta make the call, but you do know what sells, right? We all do, unfortunately. Shit sells.

A lady golfer gets stung by a bee and goes to the clubhouse. "Where did you get stung?" asks the doctor. "Between the first and second hole," she replies. The doctor says, "Lady, your stance is too wide."

Are you laughing? I love that joke despite its lack of subtlety. But without a laugh track, well...
 
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JeanneTGC

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According to Mencken, nobody ever went broke underestimating the American public. In other words, write stupid shit. But me, well, I'd rather be broke, because I just can't do it. As a reader, I prefer my humor subtle, so that's what I write. You've gotta make the call, but you do know what sells, right? We all do, unfortunately. Shit sells.

A lady golfer gets stung by a bee and goes to the clubhouse. "Where did you get stung?" asks the doctor. "Between the first and second hole," she replies. The doctor says, "Lady, your stance is too wide."

Are you laughing? I love that joke despite its lack of subtlety. But without a laugh track, well...
I didn't need a laugh track to get it and find it funny. Of course, I also saw the punchline coming, but it was still good.

And, as a part of that American public everyone wants to bash, sometimes just being entertaining IS enough.
 

Simple Living

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Giving the public everything they want is not always a good thing. History proves that. I have no respect for people who write the moronic garbage, especially just to cash in on it. We all know what the love of money is...

Integrity wins out every time.
 

faroukba

I prefer more gentle wit because when it does crack the whip the sound is much clearer... mind you what i like is not really in evidence on the telly.
the humour of friends has certainly been more successful than the office, you are talking about the 'american' office right? i find that it is weaker than the original because the american audience is percieved to need it spelling out for them not that they do. looking at the two side by side the american version is certainly more obvious than the original plus that steve corell is stealing a living... apparently the 40 year old virgin was a comedy film. Apart from his blissed out after glow at the very end i saw absolutely not one thing funny in it... but that is a different topic. Friends is popular for a number of reasons besides it's humour though, everyone is good looking for one. If you wanna hit all the more targets then you can try that... however I would say try to entertain rather than hit a demographic.

Shows like-
Spaced
The Mighty Boosh
Fawlty Towers
ren and Stimpy
... have tried to entertain rather than tick all the boxes as to what makes a broad appeal show, and they did alright
 

Hapax Legomenon

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The absolute worst offenders, and the most idiotic of "humor", belongs to the Dumb and Dumber and Beavis and Butthead crowd. How is this garbage funny? It contributes to the dumbing down of America and encourages America's bad reputation in other countries. It's moronic, stereotypical, drunken fratguy, burpin' beer-bellyed, immature, juvenile, nose-pickin' pothead garbage. It's embarrassing to live in a country where this kind of humor produces box-office hits.

Then you have the insulting and most horrific... I won't even call it "humor," like South Park.
Why do we need to get our laughter and entertainment at someone else's expense? In today's society, if someone says something we don't like, we sue them. So why is it funny when it's not being said about us? This vomit often uses graphic, vulgar language to accentuate itself. It's morbid and a sad reflection on where society is heading.

With this, I have to disagree. I can't speak for Dumb and Dumber, but Beavis and Butthead was originally a satire on the sort of people that watch MTV, and South Park is a broader, no-holds-barred satire, not even taking into account political correctness. These shows were intended for critique, though they do get laughs. Underneath all the crude language, fart jokes, and graphically-animated vomit in South Park is a streaming critique of current American culture from the writers of the show. Though on the outside, it seems base, there is actually some intellectualism in it. I don't believe that anything is perfect, but everything has something salvageable about it.

Satire, though South Park on many occasions goes too far, has an obligation to stretch the limits and sometimes be offensive. One of my favorite books, Slaughterhouse-Five by Kurt Vonnegut, also satire, was banned from being taught at schools because of sexual references, but that doesn't take away from its merit as satire. And I wouldn't put too much past my grandmother, as you keep referencing her, because she's a fiery old soul that has said 'motherfucker' in my presence. Please don't judge my grandmother without getting to know her first.

I prefer subtle humor, but that partially goes along with my love of satire, which often uses that. The one thing I can't stand is being edgy for the sake of being edgy. At that point, you're just showing off.
 

JeanneTGC

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Funny, like anything else, can, is, and should be open to a wide interpretation.

There is no right or wrong. There is only what works or doesn't. That a wide variety of funny works is good news, not bad news.
 

JoNightshade

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I don't find Friends or the Office funny. I think it just depends on individual taste. Write what you think is funny, and odds are someone else will probably think it's funny, too.

For the record, I do actually have a sense of humor. It might be morbid, though. I think House is one of the funniest shows ever.

Oh, and I love the Conchords. :)
 

BruceJ

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I know this is an old thread, but I just stumbled onto it. I lean the same direction Simple does. I prefer the subtle stuff that doesn't rely on sex/body function-shock for a laugh. The best sitcoms, in my estimation, were Dick Van Dykes, Mary Tyler Moores, and Bob Newharts who could have me rolling--subtle or not-so-subtle--just by the quality of the writing and delivery. Carol Burnett was incredible most of the time.
 

JeanneTGC

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I know this is an old thread, but I just stumbled onto it. I lean the same direction Simple does. I prefer the subtle stuff that doesn't rely on sex/body function-shock for a laugh. The best sitcoms, in my estimation, were Dick Van Dykes, Mary Tyler Moores, and Bob Newharts who could have me rolling--subtle or not-so-subtle--just by the quality of the writing and delivery. Carol Burnett was incredible most of the time.
I liked all of those. But Carol Burnett, if you think about it, is not exactly the poster girl for "subtle".

I also think "Friends" is hilarious. So is pretty much anything by Monty Python or any of the Pythons working separately or in smaller groups. I had a hard time with "Bennie Hill", particularly after I realized he was the Toymaker in "Chitty Chitty Bang Bang". And we bring it full circle back to Dick Van Dyke...I love it when that happens.
 

KingOblivionPhD

Invariably the best thing to do is to appeal to both audiences (though there are surely more than two).

There's nothing wrong with mixing broad, or even crass humor and subtlety. And only the most inflexible of comedy snobs will turn their nose up at a good fart joke (emphasis on the good part of that). If the viewer knows that the work is intelligent, it doesn't really matter if the humor is at least in part broad.

The best example of this is Looney Tunes. On the one hand, you have some of the best examples every of irony and poetic justice as humor, but you also have a coyote getting hit with a giant boulder. It's the best of both worlds.

But The Office does it, too. Sure, there are lots of subtle jokes, but Michael Scott also burned his foot on a Foreman grill. That's as broad as it gets.
 
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