Does anyone know if editors view material published online with the same regard as paper magazines, or is it a case of `depends on which one accepted you?` My impression always was that webzines werent as credible as Papaer magazines but I dont know where I got that impression from.
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HConn
Many are not as "credible." Many are not viewed as top-tier markets.
If you publish online, you've used up your First World Online publishing rights (have I got that correct?). Trying to publish it in print afterwards is selling reprint rights. Some editors won't care that you published online, especially if you published on Eugene'sDiscountStoryShack.com, or some other place where no one was likely to see it.
There are some online magazines that are very highly regarded, though.
If you publish online, you've used up your First World Online publishing rights (have I got that correct?). Trying to publish it in print afterwards is selling reprint rights. Some editors won't care that you published online, especially if you published on Eugene'sDiscountStoryShack.com, or some other place where no one was likely to see it.
There are some online magazines that are very highly regarded, though.
RichMar
I'm not sure that's what you meant. Ida thought you meant webzines vs. printzines. However, I've been wrong before. Ask anybody.
bluejester12
veingloree
HConn
emeraldcite
would we conclude then that online markets that pay pro-rate would be legit in the eyes of an editor?
veingloree
HConn
I'm sure there are non-pro-paying webzines that get respect from an editor or two. I imagine it would be the ones the editors read themselves, for whatever reason.
veingloree
There are also some that pay quite well but are in niche markets and not taken so seriously. I am thinking of Bloodfetish and Bloodlust-Uk who pay semi-pro (£0.01 per word) but are not necessarily something to put on a general CV.
aka eraser
I guess it's all in the definition but to me "pro rates" is 50 cents+/word and I don't know of too many,if any, webzines that pay in that range.
For prestige among webzines I think most of the WebdelSol group is thought of quite highly and I believe at least some of them pay.
webdelsol.com/
For prestige among webzines I think most of the WebdelSol group is thought of quite highly and I believe at least some of them pay.
webdelsol.com/
Writing Again
I would think there would be a distinct rivalry between any ezine, webzine, and any traditional printed, sold off the rack, magazine. The reason is stark: ezines will be percieved as having the potential to kill an already dying, almost dead market.
At one time you could find twenty or more pulp fiction magazines at any given newsstand, and there must have been a couple of hundred different magazines. Every possible genre had at least 10 titles you could write for.
Now you are lucky if you can find Ellery Queen mystery magazine and Isaac Asimov's science fiction magazine. I doubt if there are 20 pulp magazines in all genre's out there.
If nothing else created problems between the two forms that would.
I'm sure the web is cutting into trade magazines and hobby magazines as well.
At one time you could find twenty or more pulp fiction magazines at any given newsstand, and there must have been a couple of hundred different magazines. Every possible genre had at least 10 titles you could write for.
Now you are lucky if you can find Ellery Queen mystery magazine and Isaac Asimov's science fiction magazine. I doubt if there are 20 pulp magazines in all genre's out there.
If nothing else created problems between the two forms that would.
I'm sure the web is cutting into trade magazines and hobby magazines as well.
HConn
eraser, you aren't going to find many webzines paying 50 cents a word for fiction.
The SFWA pro rates are 5 cents a word, not 50. SciFi.com pays 20 cents a word, an outlandish amount. But it's kept going for the prestige of the site, not because it's financially feasible.
The SFWA pro rates are 5 cents a word, not 50. SciFi.com pays 20 cents a word, an outlandish amount. But it's kept going for the prestige of the site, not because it's financially feasible.
aka eraser
Yeah, HConn, that was my point. Few if any webzines pay that kind of money. I was head-scratching more about the definition of what "pro rates" meant and I suppose it means different things to different people. Getting paid any $ amount qualifies one as a professional, paid writer in most folks' books, including mine. But I still don't consider 1-5 cents/word a "pro rate" of pay. Some (not me) won't turn on a brain cell for less than 50 cents or a buck/word.
Lori Basiewicz
Just curious if you guys are talking about different currencies. HConn, I recognize the amounts you are quoting as US. Frank's Canadian. And while the difference in Canadian and US currencies aren't quite that extreme, there are still differences.
aka eraser
Nope Lori, for all intents and purposes I think of them as the same (except when cashing the cheques). About half the stuff I sell is to US pubs. I know that nonfiction tends to pay better overall than fiction, maybe that's why I tend to consider anything under 25 cents a word to be on the low side. 1-5 is low in any currency but still way better than nada, or just copies.
emeraldcite
sorry, i should have been more specific when i mentioned pro rate. i was going by the sfwa's guidelines. sorry 'bout that...
HConn
Mr. Eraser, you take your fifty cents a word talk over to one of the non-fiction threads, where I can pretend it doesn't exist.
Here it just makes me want to weep.
Here it just makes me want to weep.
Jamesaritchie
money
With nonfiction, anything under a quarter a word is on the low side, but anyone who won't turn on a brain cell for less tha fifty cents a word is going to have a limited supply of magazines. There just aren't that many out there, and they're such a diverse lot that one writer isn't going to have the expertise to write for too large a group. Most such magazines already have nearly a full stable of writers, and breaking in is difficult. As for dollar a word or more, last time I counted there were only 89 in existence, and not all of these are open to freelancers.
But the truth is simply that anyone who writes short stories for the money is going to have a rude surprise coming, especially if they think about it on a per word basis.
There's a lot more to consider than how much you get per word. One big consideration is how long it takes to write something, and the odds of selling it. A nickel a word story written in four hours gives a better hourly rate than a fifty cent per word story that takes fifty hours. It always works better if you break income into hourly rates. Of course it does work the other way around on occasion. I've sold stories for a nickel a word that took weeks to finish, and I've sold stories for fifty cents per wrod that were in the mail four hours after I got the idea.
A bigger consideration is that initial payment is not where any good writer makes his money. Whether it's a penny a word or a dollar a word, the real money is made from reprint rights, collection rights, and anthology rights. This is true of fiction and nonfiction. Over time, these can dwarf any initial payment. This means that while it's best to sell for a higher word rate, just about any sale for any amount has the potential of earning the writer a lot of money down the road.
The best use of short stories, however, isn't for the money, it's for the publicity. If you also write novels, short stories published just about anywhere for any word rate can still draw in a lot of fans who will buy your novels. This is often worth far more than a dollar a word.
As for print versus web, there's no real competition there. Print magazines are in trouble largely because of how distributors handle them, and because the price of paper is so high. Many print magazines also have electronic versions, and it doesn't seem to affect sales of the print version much or any at all. The real problem seems to be that not many people want to pay for genre short fiction, whether it's print or electronic, and it's this that is causing trouble for many electronic magazines. There are plenty of webzines out there, but precious few that make a profit.
I seldom write for any magazine that pays less than a nickel a word, but only because I don't have to. I usually sell a story before it hits magazines that pay too little. But if a magazine pays at all, and if I have no other market, I'll gladly sell to it because the real money is in reprints, collections, anthologies, and publicity.
With nonfiction, anything under a quarter a word is on the low side, but anyone who won't turn on a brain cell for less tha fifty cents a word is going to have a limited supply of magazines. There just aren't that many out there, and they're such a diverse lot that one writer isn't going to have the expertise to write for too large a group. Most such magazines already have nearly a full stable of writers, and breaking in is difficult. As for dollar a word or more, last time I counted there were only 89 in existence, and not all of these are open to freelancers.
But the truth is simply that anyone who writes short stories for the money is going to have a rude surprise coming, especially if they think about it on a per word basis.
There's a lot more to consider than how much you get per word. One big consideration is how long it takes to write something, and the odds of selling it. A nickel a word story written in four hours gives a better hourly rate than a fifty cent per word story that takes fifty hours. It always works better if you break income into hourly rates. Of course it does work the other way around on occasion. I've sold stories for a nickel a word that took weeks to finish, and I've sold stories for fifty cents per wrod that were in the mail four hours after I got the idea.
A bigger consideration is that initial payment is not where any good writer makes his money. Whether it's a penny a word or a dollar a word, the real money is made from reprint rights, collection rights, and anthology rights. This is true of fiction and nonfiction. Over time, these can dwarf any initial payment. This means that while it's best to sell for a higher word rate, just about any sale for any amount has the potential of earning the writer a lot of money down the road.
The best use of short stories, however, isn't for the money, it's for the publicity. If you also write novels, short stories published just about anywhere for any word rate can still draw in a lot of fans who will buy your novels. This is often worth far more than a dollar a word.
As for print versus web, there's no real competition there. Print magazines are in trouble largely because of how distributors handle them, and because the price of paper is so high. Many print magazines also have electronic versions, and it doesn't seem to affect sales of the print version much or any at all. The real problem seems to be that not many people want to pay for genre short fiction, whether it's print or electronic, and it's this that is causing trouble for many electronic magazines. There are plenty of webzines out there, but precious few that make a profit.
I seldom write for any magazine that pays less than a nickel a word, but only because I don't have to. I usually sell a story before it hits magazines that pay too little. But if a magazine pays at all, and if I have no other market, I'll gladly sell to it because the real money is in reprints, collections, anthologies, and publicity.
veingloree
Re: money
A lot of fiction market listings make the cut at 3c a word. there are quite a few e-zines that pay that (and plenbty of pulp-zines that don't).
However 'e'zines' are killing magazines argument sounds very like what every grouch has said about everything. Comics are killing novels, television is killing theatre, modern dance is killing ballet. Even if it's true there really isn't much point doing anything but demanding quality, regardless of form. If an e-zine prints great fiction I read it and declare it to be a 'good' thing.
A lot of fiction market listings make the cut at 3c a word. there are quite a few e-zines that pay that (and plenbty of pulp-zines that don't).
However 'e'zines' are killing magazines argument sounds very like what every grouch has said about everything. Comics are killing novels, television is killing theatre, modern dance is killing ballet. Even if it's true there really isn't much point doing anything but demanding quality, regardless of form. If an e-zine prints great fiction I read it and declare it to be a 'good' thing.
Hapsburg
Re: money
Regardless of whether it's print or online isn't the point to have people reading your work?
Ezines, in my opinion, are changing things for the better. A number of publishers do both print and online. the net allows them to publish samples and thereby draw people to the printed version. It also allows new mags to start up at less cost and get on their feet before they go to print version. A decline in pulp mag sales I don't think is necessarily related to the web so much as it is our changing lifestyles and interests. How many pulp mags do YOU buy a year and how many of them do you recommend to friends?
As a writer, it can be easier to get published and start building credits online. My first publications were on webzines, all of which paid equal to what I've earned in print. Even those that don't pay serve a purpose. I often send harder stuff to publish or very short works to webzines because they link to my site and or other works, giving me more publicity. Additionally, if you're in this business for the money and to get rich you ought to start buying lotto tickets.
To suggest that webzine will replace mags I think is a farse. Too many people enjoy the tangibility of curling up to a story in bed. If they really like it, they'll want one of their own. E books were the rage a few years back and I haven't heard a thing about them since. The net is a tool, it can't replace the feel of a book cover or the smell of the pages. Personally, I can't stand to stare at a computer screen for very long, but I can read books and mags for hours.
As to what editors think? I don't think they care. So many new writers are submitting with no credits at all, everyone has to start somewhere and at least you're getting your name out there. The only publications I ever hear editors talk bad about or get a bad impression from being published in are subsidy/vanity.
Regardless of whether it's print or online isn't the point to have people reading your work?
Ezines, in my opinion, are changing things for the better. A number of publishers do both print and online. the net allows them to publish samples and thereby draw people to the printed version. It also allows new mags to start up at less cost and get on their feet before they go to print version. A decline in pulp mag sales I don't think is necessarily related to the web so much as it is our changing lifestyles and interests. How many pulp mags do YOU buy a year and how many of them do you recommend to friends?
As a writer, it can be easier to get published and start building credits online. My first publications were on webzines, all of which paid equal to what I've earned in print. Even those that don't pay serve a purpose. I often send harder stuff to publish or very short works to webzines because they link to my site and or other works, giving me more publicity. Additionally, if you're in this business for the money and to get rich you ought to start buying lotto tickets.
To suggest that webzine will replace mags I think is a farse. Too many people enjoy the tangibility of curling up to a story in bed. If they really like it, they'll want one of their own. E books were the rage a few years back and I haven't heard a thing about them since. The net is a tool, it can't replace the feel of a book cover or the smell of the pages. Personally, I can't stand to stare at a computer screen for very long, but I can read books and mags for hours.
As to what editors think? I don't think they care. So many new writers are submitting with no credits at all, everyone has to start somewhere and at least you're getting your name out there. The only publications I ever hear editors talk bad about or get a bad impression from being published in are subsidy/vanity.
veingloree
Re: money
Indeed the ezine + online ordering and international shipping opens up a new market for many niche 'zines.
Indeed the ezine + online ordering and international shipping opens up a new market for many niche 'zines.
Jamesaritchie
zines
e-zines can be good or can be horrorible. Most are pretty bad, and they aren't credits at all, except the klind editors laugh at. But the best webzines are very good indeed.
But as for money, if you aren't in this game at least a little bit for the money you'll certainly make some silly business decisions, and likely do some things that harm all writers.
Getting rich from writing has nothing to do with the lotteray, and a lot of writers get rich each and every years. Luck has nothing to do with it. Writing well, and knowing the business side of writing has everything to do with it.
It really grows tiresome hearing making money at writing compared to winning the lottery. This makes no more sense than saying that making money as a doctor is the same thing as hitting the lottery.
e-zines can be good or can be horrorible. Most are pretty bad, and they aren't credits at all, except the klind editors laugh at. But the best webzines are very good indeed.
But as for money, if you aren't in this game at least a little bit for the money you'll certainly make some silly business decisions, and likely do some things that harm all writers.
Getting rich from writing has nothing to do with the lotteray, and a lot of writers get rich each and every years. Luck has nothing to do with it. Writing well, and knowing the business side of writing has everything to do with it.
It really grows tiresome hearing making money at writing compared to winning the lottery. This makes no more sense than saying that making money as a doctor is the same thing as hitting the lottery.
Eddie French
elysdir
Just happened across this discussion; wanted to belatedly toss in a comment.
aka eraser wrote: 'to me "pro rates" is 50 cents+/word and I don't know of too many,if any, webzines that pay in that range.'
Various people replied to that, and Jamesaritchie provided a clear and cogent discussion, but one thing that nobody quite said explicitly is this:
There are no print magazines in the science fiction/fantasy/horror arena that regularly pay more than about 10 cents/word for fiction. You can get more for nonfiction outside the genre, certainly, and you can get more for literary fiction in prestigious venues like the New Yorker, but there's no such thing as a printed speculative fiction magazine that pays more than 10 cents/word.
There are two online magazines that do: The Infinite Matrix (though I think it's currently not considering new stories) and SCI FICTION, which pays 20c/word, twice as much as the highest paying sf print magazine. So pay rate is not the primary distinguishing factor between print and online, at least not in the direction aka eraser suggested.
On an unrelated note, Writing Again mentioned that online magazines may be perceived as having the potential to kill off print magazines. That question ("Is the web killing the print magazines?") does come up at sf convention panels about the future of the short story, but the answer is generally agreed to be "No." It's not really a question of competition, at least not at the moment; readers don't tend to say "I'd better choose between reading an online magazine and reading a print magazine; guess I'll choose online." The two media fill different niches, and a lot of people read both. Online magazines are mostly free and are often easier to find, but a lot of people hate reading off a screen and don't want to print out stories. Also, no online magazine has yet figured out how to make a profit -- not that all print magazines make a profit, but some do.
Anyway, all I'm saying in that last paragraph is that I don't think the idea of online magazines killing off print magazines quite holds water, though I certainly agree that some people have that perception. Note that the loss of the print magazines began long before the web existed; also note that print magazines have also disappeared in genres (like Western and Mystery) where there are few or no online magazines.
aka eraser wrote: 'to me "pro rates" is 50 cents+/word and I don't know of too many,if any, webzines that pay in that range.'
Various people replied to that, and Jamesaritchie provided a clear and cogent discussion, but one thing that nobody quite said explicitly is this:
There are no print magazines in the science fiction/fantasy/horror arena that regularly pay more than about 10 cents/word for fiction. You can get more for nonfiction outside the genre, certainly, and you can get more for literary fiction in prestigious venues like the New Yorker, but there's no such thing as a printed speculative fiction magazine that pays more than 10 cents/word.
There are two online magazines that do: The Infinite Matrix (though I think it's currently not considering new stories) and SCI FICTION, which pays 20c/word, twice as much as the highest paying sf print magazine. So pay rate is not the primary distinguishing factor between print and online, at least not in the direction aka eraser suggested.
On an unrelated note, Writing Again mentioned that online magazines may be perceived as having the potential to kill off print magazines. That question ("Is the web killing the print magazines?") does come up at sf convention panels about the future of the short story, but the answer is generally agreed to be "No." It's not really a question of competition, at least not at the moment; readers don't tend to say "I'd better choose between reading an online magazine and reading a print magazine; guess I'll choose online." The two media fill different niches, and a lot of people read both. Online magazines are mostly free and are often easier to find, but a lot of people hate reading off a screen and don't want to print out stories. Also, no online magazine has yet figured out how to make a profit -- not that all print magazines make a profit, but some do.
Anyway, all I'm saying in that last paragraph is that I don't think the idea of online magazines killing off print magazines quite holds water, though I certainly agree that some people have that perception. Note that the loss of the print magazines began long before the web existed; also note that print magazines have also disappeared in genres (like Western and Mystery) where there are few or no online magazines.
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