How different do two poems have to be?

plnelson

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Lots of times I start off with a poem idea and end up going down two (or more) different branches creating two (or more) different poems but with the same heritage, subject, and maybe a few phrases left in common.

I knew this would happen sooner or later: I've developed two such branches into fairly polished poems that I think could be submitted for publication. One has been tuned to a very specific market and I have a specific publication in mind; the other is suitable for a more general poetry publication.

But they still share some concepts and a few phrases in common. What are some guidelines I can use to decide whether these are different enough that I won't be essentially accused of submitting the "same" poem, especially if they both got published?

Do we have any editors here to comment on this?
 

poetinahat

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I wish I could contribute to this discussion -- I'm sure interested in answers from people who have some perspective on it.
 

LimeyDawg

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No perspective, at least with getting ANYTHING published, but I would imagine it would be a sort of fraud. However, if they are indeed both publishable, then why not submit them to the same outlet?
 

plnelson

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No perspective, at least with getting ANYTHING published, but I would imagine it would be a sort of fraud. However, if they are indeed both publishable, then why not submit them to the same outlet?

They're different poems written for different markets. They're both about a hospital stay I had last spring, but one poem is for a general market and one poem is for a market that includes mostly doctors and scientists, so it has wordplay and metaphors general readers wouldn't get. But the two poems still share some structural and conceptual elements in common.

BTW, this is kind of what I was referring to when I started that thread about why traffic is so light here. This is the sort of subject where it would be nice to have a critical mass of experienced people for a conversation and different viewpoints.

There's a zillion poets and tiny literary journals out there - is there any online forum or website where lots of them hang out?
 

Pat~

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I've had several poems published, but have not encountered this problem yet. I don't usually write variations on the same poem (although I did rewrite a poem for Highlights for Children, changing about 4 lines to better suit their market). In that case, I don't plan on selling first rights on my original poem to another market if Highlights wants the revised version--the original and the revision are too similar. It was only changed about 10%. Now, if you changed your poem more than that, and didn't have but maybe two or three lines repeating word for word, perhaps that would be acceptable. In your case, the way I'd go about it would be to try to get one of the poems published...and then, after first rights has been spoken for, you can try submitting poem #2, but be sure to let them know that a similar version has been published previously in "x" magazine. Just be upfront with them, and they'll let you know how they want to treat it--as an original or a reprint.
 
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C.bronco

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It would be hard to answer without reading them to see how different they are. I often write several poems on a theme until I get to the poem I'm happy with. It took me three years before I was able to successfully employ one concept I had in the back of my mind, but I got it.
I say to submit all the stuff anyway; the chances of multiple offers for poetry publication aren't that high. If one journal accepts a poem, withrdraw the poem or it's brother from the other markets.
 

KTC

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I am sometimes embarrassed by how similar some of my poems are. I notice a theme running through them in batches of 15 or 20 at a time. I write from my headspace...so it takes things and chews on them until they are swallowed. Having said that, they are not word for word. I guess you could sell versions of the same poem, but I think you would have to state the fact?
 

Writer???

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I don't understand the question really. If they are two separate poems, going to two separate markets, through two separate publishers, what's the issue? I see no moral or ethical delima involved. And there certainly isn't a legal one even if it were to the same publisher. They have the choice of accepting or rejecting, and deciding if it is too similar.

But since you asked...

Let's say you have a poem about a kid and a ball. Well, if the only difference were the color of the ball in the two poems then yes, they're the same poem and you'd be lazy for trying to get milage out if the same work.

But if the kid is different and the ball is different, and the town and circumstances are different, if the "road traveled" is different, even though the outcome or result is the same, t's still a different poem. We all have similar experiences but travel different paths to get there. I mean we all may get up in the morning, go to work, and wind up at home that night, which would make for the same "kind" of story, but each would be fairly different I would guess. And if you (as one person) were telling these different stories, you get credit for taking the time and effort to make each one there own.

Better yet, let's say you do a series of poems about a particular tree in you yard or nearby park. You may talk about it one way when you were there with your love, and another when you were there with your kids, or still another when you were there by yourself just naval gazing one day.

Or, pin it down even finer. The same tree, the same day, different people and different times of the day, and you write about how the tree looks, how the others "use" the tree, how the light plays upon it. Same tree, same day, same story "only the names are changed to..."

Though yours deals with a particular adventure of one individual (you), I see nothing fraudulent in writting for two different audiences or telling that story from two different viewpoints. Comics, Screen Writers, Hollywood in general, do it all the time. Look at the sitcom, done to death in "different" versions yet each almost as popular as the last. Or for that matter, look at only one show, Law and Order, one of the most popular shows on tv and it has told the same story over and over many times in different ways. What's even worse (considering tv) is that in the older episodes an actor is a criminal, now, in the newer shows, they're lawyers or judges. :)

People change words or story flow, or bits and pieces all the time based on the audience. An audience of doctors is LIKELY to appreciate something different, while the average reader may appreciate the humor involved in some light hospital and doctor bashing, or particular calamity you experienced.

I think about the famous John Grisham. He puts a lot into his books and every one seems different yet the same. Basically it's a form that is followed and the specifics are changed to suit the story. It's a person or group involved in the legal practice, a murder or some other crime, research and detecting, a trial (sometimes), and an outcome that usually has what would be called a happy ending but lives changed forever. It's always the same but always different. Nicholas Sparks is kind of the same.

Here, you're admittedly telling the SAME story to two different audiences. Well, don't people ALWAYS consider their audience when relating something? Would anyone write for say a medcal journal the same as they would for Apple Valley or Mytholog? Would you tell a 25 year old secretary about your car problems the same way you would tell your mechanic? No, but you might want tell them both the same story nonetheless.

I think the worst that would come up is that those who were privy to both might accuse you of trying to get extra milage from a single poem, but how many is that really likely to be? And if we're going to start applying strict standards to poetry in these terms, we'd all better learn a new way to talk about trees, love, etc. or never write about the same tree twice. :D