Anonymity or not?

Diviner · Sep 6, 2007

One thing I like about writing is its potential timelessness and the purity (or not) of our written words. On the WIP board, Puma says she finds information about us valuable in critiquing. Personality and taste may come through, may even enrich our stories, but when I read what has been written, those are secondary to the prose, its clarity and verve, and the story line.

I have chosen to be almost anonymous, so much so that half the time people think I am a man. In my opinon, who and what we are beyond the writing may be interesting--and certainly humanizing--but has no bearing on what others can get from our written stories.

As a critiquer, I don't want to teach anyone's grandmother to suck eggs (actually, I don't know anything about sucking eggs, so that cliche doesn't work for me, but at least you all know what I am saying). But, whether we are male or female, when we write about birth or death, battle or love, a reader either is moved by it or not. our power is not in ourselves but in our words, how they convey the essence of our made-up worlds, whether they move or convince others. Some readers are more easily confused, some readers are careless, but the story is far more important than who is telling it.

How do you all see this?

c.e.lawson · Sep 6, 2007

Hi Diviner,

I agree with what your post here says. But I don't think that's what Puma meant by information about the author being valuable in critiquing. (Please correct me if I'm getting this wrong, Puma.) I don't think it helps us in reading the piece. Or in what we get out of the piece. I think she meant that it helps us in doing a critique to know how to formulate our suggestions/comments.

For me, personally, it may give me a sort of framework of the writer's maturity and experience, for one thing. And that's one indicator that helps me know how harsh to be as well. If someone tells me in their profile that they're just beginning to learn this writing thing, then I would be more gentle and give more praise about the good stuff I see, even if in general the piece is poorly written. I wouldn't want to squash someone's writing ego their first time out - I think that's very damaging to a person experimenting with an art form that's new to them. But if their profile says they've been writing for years, or have a degree in English Lit or creative writing, then I would have certain expectations and probably not hesitate to be harsher in my crit.

To address our specific challenge, I can see how it could sort of help me in the birth scenes to know if the writer is female and has borne her own children. (Especially natural childbirth, LOL!)

Let's say I've read a birth scene from the pregnant woman's perspective, and it just doesn't ring true to me. Granted, every birth experience is different, and I'm not saying a man can't write a completely realistic birth scene from a woman's perspective, but it might make me take a step back as a critiquer and probably not spend as much time explaining about what I may have experienced myself or what I have seen as a physician in the delivery room, if they've already been there, done that, too, just as one example. In that respect, I might focus more on their writing style as the reason it's not coming across, rather than me assuming the reason the scene is not working is that they haven't experienced delivering a baby themselves. This example is just to illustrate my point, since I doubt anyone's profile indicates what type of childbirth they've experienced.

c.e.

JoNightshade · Sep 6, 2007

Ditto to what c.e. said. Knowing a person's experience tells me whether or not I should go gentle or do my worst (best?).

When I read actual books, though, I prefer to know nothing about the author whatsoever. Case in point: I started reading Nero Wolfe books and I accidentally flipped to the back flap of the cover. This really weird old guy is giving me this goofy grin. Through the entire rest of the book all I could think of was this weird dude narrating the story. (It wore off after a while, thank goodness.)

Doogs · Sep 6, 2007

I'm going to have to go with Diviner on this one. Not to the point of pursuing anonymity. I have no problem with anyone knowing that I'm 27, male, married, with four dogs and a baby on the way. But I don't expect (or want) that to have any bearing on the critiques I receive. Nor do I take personal details into account when critting the work of others.

The writing should stand on its own, regardless of who wrote it.

I think a more useful guide would be some indication of what type of story we're writing, and what existing novels could be called comparable. Historical fiction is very encompassing genre, and one that can be approached in innumerable ways. Knowing what each of us wants to achieve strikes me as something far more useful to have on hand when critting.

As to "harshness" - I have yet to see much of that at all on these boards. Even when perusing the few (very few) instances of terrible writing, all of the crits make an effort to couch the negatives in constructive criticism - so I, personally, don't see it as that big of a deal.

Doogs · Sep 6, 2007

JoNightshade said:
Case in point: I started reading Nero Wolfe books and I accidentally flipped to the back flap of the cover. This really weird old guy is giving me this goofy grin. Through the entire rest of the book all I could think of was this weird dude narrating the story. (It wore off after a while, thank goodness.)

I have the same thing whenever I read S.M. Stirling. The guy can put together an awesome story, but his portrait photo leaves a lot to be desired.

c.e.lawson · Sep 6, 2007

Doogs, you have FOUR dogs? We're adopting an eighty pound hound mix tomorrow. He's one year old and still puppy-like, so we're going to have our hands full.

Back on topic - Say you're critiquing a scene about soldiers and an intense moment on the battlefield. Would you critique the scene exactly the same way if you knew it had been written by a female high school freshman vs a World War II veteran who had stormed the beach at Normandy?

One time I critiqued a piece about a young child who broke her arm. I remember commenting that the girl's reaction didn't ring true to me. I based that on my own broken arm when I was a little girl as well as my experience in the pediatric ER during med school. The author of the piece told me the child's reaction was based on her own daughter's experience almost verbatim. Oops. If I'd known that I probably wouldn't have commented on it. Or should I still have done so? Sometimes I forget that we each can have entirely different experiences of the same thing. Wait - what's the lesson here? I've confused myself so I have no idea! Maybe the moral of the story goes back to Diviner's "suck eggs" comment. (I don't think I got enough sleep last night.)

Doogs · Sep 6, 2007

c.e.lawson said:
Back on topic - Say you're critiquing a scene about soldiers and an intense moment on the battlefield. Would you critique the scene exactly the same way if you knew it had been written by a female high school freshman vs a World War II veteran who had stormed the beach at Normandy?

Yes, I would.

When I critique, I'm operating on the assumption that all of us who post excerpts and toil away at our WIPs have hopes of one day being published. And if the story's not there, if the narrative's rough or the details are sloppy (or too plentiful), no agent or editor is going to give you a pass based on who you happen to be.

Coming at it from that way, I don't see that the writer's age, gender, etc, should be taken into consideration when critting the writing itself.

Diviner · Sep 6, 2007

Doogs said:
When I critique, I'm operating on the assumption that all of us who post excerpts and toil away at our WIPs have hopes of one day being published. And if the story's not there, if the narrative's rough or the details are sloppy (or too plentiful), no agent or editor is going to give you a pass based on who you happen to be.

Coming at it from that way, I don't see that the writer's age, gender, etc, should be taken into consideration when critting the writing itself.

This is pretty much my point. I'm not saying we can't be polite and respectful, but honesty about the writing is the greatest help we can give. It doesn'r make us right--that's asking too much--but at least a careful, honest appraisal from others, whatever their experience or expertise, helps us as writers.

And ce, your example of the broken arm is a good case in point. As a writer, a human being of a limited amount of experience, I would like to know of others' before I submit. It makes my writing stronger. And I don't mind learning where the experience is coming from, either. It adds to the seriousness I evaluate it with. I can ignore it or not as I choose. There is room in our writing for individual reactions and responses, even unique ones, but a thinking writer goes for effects consciously. It's all part of the whole.

In the forums, we have the opportunity to receive a number of reactions. Personally, I treasure this, even when someone reads coffin for coffer in my writing.

I am infinitely grateful to those who read critically and take the time to give me feedback. Seldom in life do we enjoy such disinterested evaluations. And here,

I find most suggestions worthy of my serious consideration.

girlyswot · Sep 6, 2007

It seems to me that, however objectively we want to view this, there are two distinct issues involved in critiquing someone's writing: the quality of the writing and the person of the writer. A critique that gives a full-blown, brutally honest, pulling threads apart analysis of the writing, exposing every weakness (and every strength) isn't always (or often) going to be the most helpful thing in improving the piece of writing. And that's because the critique has to be read, comprehended and taken on board by the writer in order for them to make the necessary improvements. Sometimes it's easy, especially on the internet, to forget that there's a real person with real feelings at the other end of our comments.

Knowing a little bit about the writer may be helpful in deciding not so much what to say to them but how to say it. And the writing itself can be a useful (though not infallible) guide to this too. If there are a lot of things wrong, I'd suggest that a lengthy, bulleted list of these is the least helpful response. Picking one or two of the most important is much more useful.

Even for a much better piece of writing I'd want to be careful about how I make criticisms and also take time to point out strengths, since I think that knowing these is just as important for a writer wanting to improve their work. People learn by positive reinforcement as well as by negative critique.

I agree, Doogs, that knowing a writer's overall aim with the piece would be helpful. I also like it when writers ask specific questions of their readers, so that we know what they've been working on/struggling with. Though, of course, sometimes the author doesn't notice there's an issue at all so general crits can be useful too.

But I would take issue with your assumption that everyone here has hopes of being published. AW clearly states that this is a forum for all writers, of any standard and with any goal. I presume people are here because they want to improve, but that is a very different thing from wanting to sell or to be publishable! Certain critiques seem to me to focus very strongly on what editors are looking for, or what's popular and what's not, none of which are of the slightest interest to me at all.

But I do agree with whoever it was who said that generally the crits here are all both helpful and friendly!

Doogs · Sep 6, 2007

girlyswot said:
But I would take issue with your assumption that everyone here has hopes of being published. AW clearly states that this is a forum for all writers, of any standard and with any goal. I presume people are here because they want to improve, but that is a very different thing from wanting to sell or to be publishable! Certain critiques seem to me to focus very strongly on what editors are looking for, or what's popular and what's not, none of which are of the slightest interest to me at all.

I agree, my assumption is probably faulty, a case of projection on my part.

But I would still venture that the majority of us posting in the SYW section have hopes of selling their manuscripts, seeing their books in print, being able to quit/retire/whatever and write full-time. I know that's my dream.

And those who aren't, as you said, are still looking to improve. And probably looking for the honest feedback that's so hard to come across with friends and family.

Either way...I still hold the opinion that the identity of the writer should have no bearing on the crit or its thoroughness.

But maybe I'm just a grumpy bastard...

PastMidnight · Sep 6, 2007

I'm with you, Diviner. I feel comfortable posting on AW because of the anonymity. When sharing with a face-to-face writing group, there is always a bias of 'This writer can't write well about this topic. She's a woman' or 'He's too young' or 'She's never been to Austrailia' or whatever. I found this skepticism when my own works were evaluated and I couldn't help but do the same when evaluating the works of others.

Until I read this thread, I had no idea that Doogs had Baby #1 on the way. I found his scene of the new dad meeting his son for the first time to be very touching and real. I assumed that he had already been through that experience. If I had read this thread beforehand, though, and had known that he hadn't yet, I might have approached his scene with a wee bit of skepticism. I'm glad that I didn't!

I can see both sides, really. Those who want that bit of background info so that they know where the author is coming from vs. those who don't want to be biased or predisposed to reading more than the words on the page.

Honestly, I would just like to know whether a scene i wrote came across as being believable, whether I've experienced it firsthand or not. I wouldn't want to be cut any slack if I hadn't. Anyone writing a childbirth scene has to be believable, whether man or woman, whether they've experienced it or not. When reading a novel, you don't get much info about the author beyond sex, maybe whether married, maybe where in the world they are from. You have to read with a certain amount of trust.

And I'm still not filling out my profile

girlyswot · Sep 6, 2007

Doogs said:
And those who aren't, as you said, are still looking to improve. And probably looking for the honest feedback that's so hard to come across with friends and family.

Either way...I still hold the opinion that the identity of the writer should have no bearing on the crit or its thoroughness.

Oh I certainly think one should be honest. But honesty doesn't preclude thoughtfulness and consideration, and nor does it require that everything be said all the time. That's really all I'm saying.

DeleyanLee · Sep 6, 2007

Reader reaction

c.e.lawson said:
One time I critiqued a piece about a young child who broke her arm. I remember commenting that the girl's reaction didn't ring true to me. I based that on my own broken arm when I was a little girl as well as my experience in the pediatric ER during med school. The author of the piece told me the child's reaction was based on her own daughter's experience almost verbatim.

No offense to the writer of that piece, but what occurs to me is the failure wasn't in what she was trying to express, but in how she expressed it. It came across as unreal to you because of your personal experiences--which all readers will have and will use. That's not an oops. That's a valid comment and concern that the author should address, regardless of their experience.

Hope that makes sense.

Doogs · Sep 6, 2007

PastMidnight said:
Honestly, I would just like to know whether a scene i wrote came across as being believable, whether I've experienced it firsthand or not. I wouldn't want to be cut any slack if I hadn't. Anyone writing a childbirth scene has to be believable, whether man or woman, whether they've experienced it or not. When reading a novel, you don't get much info about the author beyond sex, maybe whether married, maybe where in the world they are from. You have to read with a certain amount of trust.

THIS is exactly what I was trying so poorly to say, PastMidnight!

The writing is what matters. To use c.e.'s example of the female high school freshman and the WWII vet, it's all well and good to know their backgrounds and what expertise (or lack thereof) they bring to the table, but ultimately it's their writing and the believability (or not) of their battle scene that matters.

Puma · Sep 6, 2007

I don't believe any of you responding to this thread have ever been involved in or witnessed any of the flame wars. They can get pretty nasty and usually end with someone leaving AW voluntarily (but unhappily) or banned.

Flame wars usually seem to involve newcomers to AW and even more frequently newcomers who don't post anything in their profiles. There are some old hands on here who refuse to critique anything put up by someone with a low post count and there are also ones who refuse to crit if there's no profile.

Why? It isn't so much a much a matter of whether a person is male or female, married, single, etc. as it is maturity and attitude. Very often the kids on here won't put anything in a profile that might give away their ages so they can seem more grown up (but it usually shows up somehow anyway). You don't want to hit a fifteen year old with a hard crit. Then there are the non-native English speakers who need a little extra understanding (but how do you tell a person is an ESL writer if there's nothing in the profile or location to tell you?) But, more difficult than the kids or the AWers from other countries are the people who have chips on their shoulders for one reason or another. One of the quotes from an old hand is to never critique anything put up by someone who mentions his or her own writing in the profile. The "chips" are usually very defensive of their work and don't take comments well. And it's not just the own writing that identify the chips, there are other little hints that come through as well in the profiles.

And, if you didn't take the time to read the "Advice to Newbies" stickied at the top on the main SYW forum, one of the first things said in it is to complete your profile as a help and courtesy to critiquers. Puma

Doogs · Sep 6, 2007

I don't believe any of you responding to this thread have ever been involved in or witnessed any of the flame wars. They can get pretty nasty and usually end with someone leaving AW voluntarily (but unhappily) or banned.

Show me an internet forum, any internet forum, that hasn't succumbed to at least one flame war, and I daresay you'll be the first. In my limited experience since joining, I must say this is probably the most civil forum I've ever been a part of.

Flame wars usually seem to involve newcomers to AW and even more frequently newcomers who don't post anything in their profiles.

Again, I think this is true of forums in general. Probably because the 'old hands' are unlikely to incite or perpetuate the flame wars (otherwise they'd have been banned at some earlier point).

There are some old hands on here who refuse to critique anything put up by someone with a low post count and there are also ones who refuse to crit if there's no profile.

I can understand the low post count. There's a certain "paying your dues" aspect. Critting, after all, involves an investment in time, and you don't want to waste that investment on someone who is new, hasn't earned your respect, and/or may just take the crits and bolt.

Why? It isn't so much a much a matter of whether a person is male or female, married, single, etc. as it is maturity and attitude. Very often the kids on here won't put anything in a profile that might give away their ages so they can seem more grown up (but it usually shows up somehow anyway).

I know a few fifteen year olds who would acquit themselves just fine on here. And I can think of a far larger number of adults who, in terms of social development, never left the eighth grade.

I will agree, maturity and attitude are important factors, but I think you have to base those off a person's posts and their interactions with others.

This is straying off topic a bit from the OP, but why should the presence or absence of a profile, of factors beyond anyone's control (age, gender, location) play any role whatsoever in whether or not to crit someone's work? As I see it, refusing to crit someone's excerpt based on their age, gender, or whatnot is prejudicial.

c.e.lawson · Sep 7, 2007

PastMidnight said:
And I'm still not filling out my profile

I respect your decision, PastMidnight. The only thing I'd like to know about you is, you being from Scotland and all, whether or not you spend a considerable amount of time with Gerard Butler (Or Kevin McKidd, or Sean Connery). And if the answer is yes, then may I hang around with you?

I absolutely agree that the writing should stand on its own merit. Stylistically, I'd view a piece by any two people here on AW with a similar critical eye. And I don't NEED a profile in order to crit. But if I knew something about the author, like my example about the WWII veteran, then I might phrase certain critique comments differently. What may be a helpful teaching point to a high school freshman about how a soldier might behave on the battlefield might only be patronizing to a war veteran. That's the point I was trying to make.

PastMidnight · Sep 7, 2007

Hey, to each their own! There's nothing wrong with reading profiles or bios before reading something that author has written. It's just not the way I prefer to do my reading crits.

And, really, it doesn't bother me that there will be some people who will not crit my work because I don't have a profile. I know that there will be enough people who will.

P.S. C.e., if I had Gerard Butler, would you really expect me to share?

Puma · Sep 7, 2007

Doogs - As I mentioned earlier, it's not the age, gender, etc. that are really the most important in the profile; it's the attitude - and the attitude comes across in how people respond to the other questions (If I ruled the world, writing dream, most people don't know I, etc. - even favorite books and authors can give some indications).

And yes, you're right there are some old hands who hop of threads that are getting testy and push them over the line. I've been disgusted by some of them in the past.

Historical has not had the hot threads that some of the other forums experience. But when you get posters demanding your credentials for critting, giving examples of published authors who've broken the same rules, etc. it can be hard to back out (all you can do is wish you'd never gotten in).

Critting a newbie is always a gamble. I actually prefer to crit newbies because in a lot of cases they're a breath of fresh air with something exciting. But I have also gotten burned a few times (on a mild crit - "Thanks for letting me know my writing sucks.") which is why, if I start to see some red flags, I want to know more before forging ahead. Puma

pdr · Sep 7, 2007

Anon?

The words have it!
If a reader can't translate the words into something close to what the writer had intended then the piece isn't working.

And I'm sorry, girlyswot, but I crit to help writers make something publishable. Do you prefer I don't crit your work then?

girlyswot · Sep 7, 2007

pdr said:
The words have it!
And I'm sorry, girlyswot, but I crit to help writers make something publishable. Do you prefer I don't crit your work then?

It depends what your crit is. If it's 'this doesn't work because....' then I'd love to hear it. If it's 'editors don't like...' then I'm probably not interested. It's up to you whether you want to bother with someone who's a happy hobbyist.

wee · Sep 7, 2007

c.e.lawson said:
Back on topic - Say you're critiquing a scene about soldiers and an intense moment on the battlefield. Would you critique the scene exactly the same way if you knew it had been written by a female high school freshman vs a World War II veteran who had stormed the beach at Normandy?

Absolutely! Because experiencing something doesn't mean you can convey it well, and not having experienced something doesn't mean you can't put yourself into that mindset and write something that will move other people.

Best example of this off the top of my head -- when I read Pet Semetary (is that how it is spelled on the cover? Sorry, can't remember the exact misspelling right now LOL), the part where the little boy dies, I remember just boo-hooing through that part & thinking, "Stephen King could not possibly write this so well unless he had lost a child of his own!" So far as I know, he has never lost a child & was in fact, under the influence when he wrote that part. Amazing... to me, anyway.

Yeah, the writing should stand alone & be awesome, regardless of who wrote it. That isn't quite true of non-fiction, particularly 1st-person accounts of an event. The sometimes ineffective conveyances tell you other things ... but for well-written narrative or fiction, it should be real no matter who wrote it.

wee

c.e.lawson · Sep 8, 2007

PastMidnight said:
P.S. C.e., if I had Gerard Butler, would you really expect me to share?

That makes it sound as though you DO spend considerable time with him! I KNEW it!! Well, a girl has to try, right? And he seems enough man for the both of us...

Anonymity or not?

Diviner

c.e.lawson

JoNightshade

has finally arrived

Doogs

Doogs

c.e.lawson

Doogs

Diviner

girlyswot

Doogs

PastMidnight

Oponionated

girlyswot

DeleyanLee

Writing Anarchist

Doogs

Puma

Retired and loving it!

Doogs

c.e.lawson

PastMidnight

Oponionated

Puma

Retired and loving it!

pdr

girlyswot

wee

just a little

c.e.lawson