How to destroy misconceptions

Felicia Beasley · Sep 5, 2007

I've had several people make assumptions about the world in my current WIP. They will read the first chapter and jump on how it doesn't make sense in a medieval society. Then I groan and ask them why they think the society is medieval. The answer "because this is fantasy." This is coming from other writers who write fantasy

I'm a strong believer in the anti-info dump and I tend to go straight to the character and conflict. Now my character doesn't sit around and think of all the ways the society works. I know how my society works and it is not in anyway medieval. The level of technology is also higher, though there is no cars or telephones.

The reason this is bothering me is because almost all the complaints about the chapter are because of this. Now I have no intention of dumping my current society in turn for the cookie-cutter "fantasy world". Information about the society and people are sprinkled throughout the novel (this is a rewrite) but I'm wondering what I can do in the very beginning to hint at the reader that this isn't a medieval society. There is nothing in the beginning to hint that it is, I made sure of that. And I also don't want to have to over-explain.

Am I being worried for nothing? Do most readers assume that the world's workings will be explained as they need to? Or do they begin to balk when they contradict medieval norms?

This is more of a general question than one specific to my novel.

DocBrown · Sep 5, 2007

In my opinion the best way is to make it clear. Describe a few key things or ideas that make it obvious that the setting is not medieval right in the beginning. It doesn't have to be a lot, but you obviously need to add something.

I can understand you want to be minimalistc in this area, but it sounds like you have gone too far. In which case you need to accept that people aren't going to be in synch with your world until you add enough to make sure that it is clear.

Not knowing anything more about your world I don't think I can give any specific suggestions.

For my part, I do tend to go into books with a tabula rasa mentality. Mostly because I am walking into the world to be entertained, so I expect the author to do the bulk of the work.

I have never thought about whether or not this is atypical.

waylander · Sep 5, 2007

Show us one of the 'non-standard' aspects of your world on the first page before your readers get a chance to get into 'default setting'

Saanen · Sep 5, 2007

This happened to me recently when I had a fantasy short story critiqued by my writer's group. Two or three different people kept pointing out things that wouldn't have happened in a medieval society. I wanted to pull my hair out, because that story was not set in a medieval society at all. I think some people who read only high fantasy assume that all fantasy is set in medieval-like societies.

I second the suggestion that you should show us some of your world's technology early on, or something that'll indicate that we're not in the middle ages.

JimmyB27 · Sep 5, 2007

My world isn't medieval either, but I never considered this problem. You had me worried until I read this...

DocBrown said:
In my opinion the best way is to make it clear. Describe a few key things or ideas that make it obvious that the setting is not medieval right in the beginning.

...and remembered that my opening scene shows my MC fighting with muskets.

So, yeah, I agree with the Doc.

Higgins · Sep 5, 2007

Medieval

Felicia Beasley said:
I've had several people make assumptions about the world in my current WIP. They will read the first chapter and jump on how it doesn't make sense in a medieval society. Then I groan and ask them why they think the society is medieval. The answer "because this is fantasy." This is coming from other writers who write fantasy

The whole medieval fantasy thing has been out of hand for so long that...well, I just don't read fantasy unless it somehow escapes being generically (in at least two senses) medieval. I write Cold War Fantasy myself, so there is no possible confusion. So far nobody has said, "Wait a second, I don't think they had B52Ds in the Middle Ages." I guess it is possible though. Not the B52Ds, but the "Wait a second..."

Luc2 · Sep 5, 2007

I for one like the traditional medieval-type setting. I'm conservative. Gimme swords, mercenaries, a dwarf, elves and even some dragons, and I'm content. If it's well written...
I've read fantasies in other settings, and it took me time to get used to. But if they're good, I like them too.
It would bug me if I was assuming (for whatever reason) that the setting is (pseudo)medieval, and later in the story the setting turns out to be different.

So I'd suggest to follow the advice of others here, and show somehow that your society is more advanced. i'm sure you can do that without a big infodump. Are there railroads, show railroad tracks. Use the sound of a steam engine from a nearby factory etc.

dclary · Sep 5, 2007

Tips:

a) Don't use medieval-sounding names if the setting's not medieval.
b) Don't use medieval-sounding props (castles, swords, chainmail) if the setting's not medieval.
c) Call your readers idiots and tell them they're not smart enough to read your work.

Colin McHale · Sep 5, 2007

dclary said:
Tips:

a) Don't use medieval-sounding names if the setting's not medieval.
b) Don't use medieval-sounding props (castles, swords, chainmail) if the setting's not medieval.
c) Call your readers idiots and tell them they're not smart enough to read your work.

What if you've got castles and swords and chainmail, but also steam boats, trains, factories, guns and cannons? Keeping in mind that guns and cannons are somewhat rare, given that the gunpowder equivalent is expensive and hard to produce, and that castles can be magically reinforced to take hits that would otherwise crumble them...

dclary · Sep 5, 2007

Then that's medieval. Steampunk Medieval, but medieval nonetheless.

I mean, hell, that's practically just alternative history what you've described there.

Popeyesays · Sep 5, 2007

Let's see: How to avoid the infodump?

Open the story with the main character riding a train and reading a newspaper.

Regards,
Scott

Popeyesays · Sep 5, 2007

Colin McHale said:
What if you've got castles and swords and chainmail, but also steam boats, trains, factories, guns and cannons? Keeping in mind that guns and cannons are somewhat rare, given that the gunpowder equivalent is expensive and hard to produce, and that castles can be magically reinforced to take hits that would otherwise crumble them...

If magic is capable of protecting stone walls from gunfire, it is probably also capable of destroying stone walls without gunfire.

So, given that, why does anyone use gunpowder anyway?

regards,
Scott

Roger J Carlson · Sep 5, 2007

Felicia Beasley said:
Am I being worried for nothing? Do most readers assume that the world's workings will be explained as they need to? Or do they begin to balk when they contradict medieval norms?

This is more of a general question than one specific to my novel.

It is not the reader's fault. It is your fault. You are responsible for setting the stage for your novel. Your readers have done you a tremedous service by pointing out something that you cannot see because you're too close to your novel. Be thankful because if they have this problem so will others.

But you don't need to go in for long info dumps either. You didn't say what your society is, so I can't really give you useful suggestions. What everyday implements would the characters use? Have them pick up a cigarette lighter or hear the steam locomotive whistle or whatever is pertinent to your society.

JimmyB27 · Sep 5, 2007

Popeyesays said:
If magic is capable of protecting stone walls from gunfire, it is probably also capable of destroying stone walls without gunfire.

So, given that, why does anyone use gunpowder anyway?

regards,
Scott

Why do people always make assumptions like this? Destroying and protecting are two very different things - why does it have to be good at both?

Roger J Carlson · Sep 5, 2007

Popeyesays said:
If magic is capable of protecting stone walls from gunfire, it is probably also capable of destroying stone walls without gunfire.

So, given that, why does anyone use gunpowder anyway?

regards,
Scott

Perhaps they use magic to produce gunpowder.

Colin McHale · Sep 5, 2007

Popeyesays said:
If magic is capable of protecting stone walls from gunfire, it is probably also capable of destroying stone walls without gunfire.

So, given that, why does anyone use gunpowder anyway?

regards,
Scott

Easy. Anyone can use guns, given they have "gunpowder" and ammo. Not just anyone can cast a spell powerful enough to blow up castle walls. Magic that powerful is relatively rare. More so than "gunpowder". So guns are still more practical.

MattW · Sep 5, 2007

JimmyB27 said:
Why do people always make assumptions like this? Destroying and protecting are two very different things - why does it have to be good at both?

Sure - magic in some worlds could be a passive, slow draw magic that is impractical for offense on command, but great for warding defenses.

Higgins · Sep 5, 2007

Those little hints

Roger J Carlson said:
It is not the reader's fault. It is your fault. You are responsible for setting the stage for your novel. Your readers have done you a tremedous service by pointing out something that you cannot see because you're too close to your novel. Be thankful because if they have this problem so will others.

But you don't need to go in for long info dumps either. You didn't say what your society is, so I can't really give you useful suggestions. What everyday implements would the characters use? Have them pick up a cigarette lighter or hear the steam locomotive whistle or whatever is pertinent to your society.

It's just those barely perceptible hints that really make the illusion that you are just reading a book while harboring no preconceptions work so well:

Have a door dilate or have them drink a fine Whisky called "Post Old Steamy Punky and not Ye Olde Medievale."

See, nothing too obvious. Nothing that just jumps out and tells the reader to pay attention for once. Instead, it all just kind of seeps into their heads: the Renaisance Fairie atmospherie is discreetly replaced by the harsh samba-colors and metafetic cheese of some sort of Punk (Steam, Pizza, Cyber, Post-Punk, neo-Punk)...and there you are: out of the medieval woods and into the urban realities we face everyday in Urban Punk or the suburban subrealities we face once a week in Suburban Punk.

MattW · Sep 5, 2007

Sokal said:
a fine Whisky called "Post Old Steamy Punky and not Ye Olde Medievale."

On the rocks, please.

Popeyesays · Sep 5, 2007

JimmyB27 said:
Why do people always make assumptions like this? Destroying and protecting are two very different things - why does it have to be good at both?

Well, it's a military aphorism that defense ALWAYS lags behind offense in the technology of warfare.

There is no need to armor a warship until gunfire is able to penetrate an unarmored vessel. Armor becomes more and more elaborate and complex as the guns become more destructive.

it's like in chess, no matter who wins the game in the end, black always starts the game a beat behind white. If black imitates white exactly white will always win.

Regards,

Scott

Higgins · Sep 5, 2007

Except

Popeyesays said:
Well, it's a military aphorism that defense ALWAYS lags behind offense in the technology of warfare.

There is no need to armor a warship until gunfire is able to penetrate an unarmored vessel. Armor becomes more and more elaborate and complex as the guns become more destructive.

it's like in chess, no matter who wins the game in the end, black always starts the game a beat behind white. If black imitates white exactly white will always win.

Regards,

Scott

Except in the case of fortifications. Fortifications (trenches, castles, bastions etc.) alter some basic things so they are often ahead of what the offense can do. Seiges consumed a lot of effort in the period from say 1100 - 1800 in Europe and the artillery advantage was often with the defender.

Popeyesays · Sep 5, 2007

Fortresses changed when gunpowder became the prevailing offense. Compare a thirteenth century castle to a seventeenth century fortress designed by Vauban:

http://www.internet-encyclopedia.org/upload/f/f3/Vauban-fortress.jpg

Then tell me that defense did not adapt to offense.

Regards,
Scott

Higgins · Sep 5, 2007

Not that simple

Popeyesays said:
Fortresses changed when gunpowder became the prevailing offense. Compare a thirteenth century castle to a seventeenth century fortress designed by Vauban:

http://www.internet-encyclopedia.org/upload/f/f3/Vauban-fortress.jpg

Then tell me that defense did not adapt to offense.

Regards,
Scott

Whole areas were subjugated and held by forces based on networks of fortifications (eg the Normans in the British Isles or the Venetians in the Eastern Mediterranean)...seiges, even of old style defenses were major undertakings. Many places held with only a few modern bastions linked to field defenses and oldstyle walls. So, defense can be so far ahead of offense as to be technically invisible because its power is assumed in all calculations. In effect the defense can cause adaptations that are political and far more wide-reaching than technical revisions and this usually goes unremarked in purely technical discussions.

Popeyesays · Sep 5, 2007

Technology developed internal combustion engines, and it was not long before vehicles with weapons mounted on them became effective.

Then the defense had to adapt weapons to deal with those vehicles. The vehicles adapted by developing better weapons and armor. Defense adapted by pitting armored vehicles against one another. The offense dealt with the new circumstances by armoring better becoming more mobile and developing more effective weapons. The designers retaliated by sloping armor to offer better protection. The guns became more efficient. The defense developed Chobham layered armor at a slope. Guns became even more high-velocity and started making kinetic penetrators out of denser and denser material. The defense countered by adapting those materials like depleted uranium to the armor sandwich.

Defense always lags a beat behind. Why?

Offense ACTS, Defense REACTS.

Regards,
Scott

Sassee · Sep 5, 2007

Maybe I'm not the typical fantasy reader, but when I think fantasy I think urban fantasy. Werewolves, vampires, demons, faeries...

What's in your first chapter that makes them think it's supposed to be medieval? Are there elves, dwarves, kings, princesses, knights in shining armor, what? We can't give tips unless you give us more clues.

How to destroy misconceptions

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