Dumbing it down

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meldy

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I am writing (obviously, lol) a YA novel.
My first, so its been a bit of a struggle.

Based on comments in the SYW forum here I have dumbed it down considerably but am struggling to maintain the consistancy.

It's starting, IMO, to take on a bit of a picture book feel and I am worried I have dumbed it down too much?

How do you know when to stop? Where do you draw the line and how do you know if you are working at the level you need to be?

I have done the reading level tests etc on Word and am scoring about 5.8 grade level and 84.4 for ease.

So I assume that is good?

I am aiming in the 12-16 market (if that is a market?) My MC is currently 14 and will age a bit throughout the book to probably 17.
 

roskoebaby

I am writing (obviously, lol) a YA novel.
My first, so its been a bit of a struggle.

Based on comments in the SYW forum here I have dumbed it down considerably but am struggling to maintain the consistancy.

It's starting, IMO, to take on a bit of a picture book feel and I am worried I have dumbed it down too much?

How do you know when to stop? Where do you draw the line and how do you know if you are working at the level you need to be?

I have done the reading level tests etc on Word and am scoring about 5.8 grade level and 84.4 for ease.



Huh? I never heard of a reading test, that's pretty cool. If you think that you're dumbing it down too much, you might be. If your market is 12-16, I might shoot for a 7th to 8th grade reading level. In my opinion, kids like to read things a little too old for them, like they're getting away with something.lol.

Don't know if that helps.
 

OverTheHills&FarAway

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Rule one in writing books for kids (especially YA):

They know when they're being talked down to.

Kids age 12-16 are already reading adult books if they can get their hands on them. I know I was at that age. Never underestimate kids. They know and understand more than you think. And if they catch any whiff of being patronized, they will hurl your book across the room with force of a thousand suns. Kids are adept at sensing when someone's being false, or "trying to be cool." That's why they're so ruthless when it comes to popularity and all that. They just know when it's the real deal.

My advice? Throw in hard words and difficult concepts. They'll appreciate it, and, even if they don't quite understand some things, they will pick up tons. Adults might actually enjoy it, too. You know all those books you used to read as a kid? Go back to them now, I'm sure you'll find something you didn't quite catch on to and appreciate it even more. And it didn't detract from your enjoying it the first time around, did it?

I'd say stop worrying about it. Picture books are for kids who can't read yet. Hopefully your target audience is a bit more advanced than that, yes? :)
 

writermom

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Based on comments in the SYW forum here I have dumbed it down considerably but am struggling to maintain the consistancy.

It's starting, IMO, to take on a bit of a picture book feel and I am worried I have dumbed it down too much?

Please don’t take this as a personal attack because it really isn’t one.

I just want to say that this offends me. I have heard this so many times from so many writers and it makes me extremely frustrated.

YA is not a dumbed down version of adult fiction. Powerful YA is smart, funny and very difficult to pull off.

When writers say this, it only makes me think that perhaps they haven’t spent enough time reading and studying current YA fiction.

/end rant.
 

meldy

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It tested at 7.9 grade level and 68% ease before I dumbed it down.

What worries me the most is the consistancy of it. It seems to kind of go from picture book dialogue to adult monologue (probably the wrong terminology and I apologize)

The content will, in parts, be somewhat more grown up than a 12 yr old needs to read(rape, abuse etc) but it will at the same time be a story basically about a girl and her horse. (ya, cheesy I know :tongue)

When I started it I hadnt thought about genre.
Like I said: it's my first novel, publishable (eventually) at best, and a learning experience at worst.

But it would be nice to learn all the right stuff sooner rather than later!
 

meldy

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Please don’t take this as a personal attack because it really isn’t one.

I just want to say that this offends me. I have heard this so many times from so many writers and it makes me extremely frustrated.

YA is not a dumbed down version of adult fiction. Powerful YA is smart, funny and very difficult to pull off.

When writers say this, it only makes me think that perhaps they haven’t spent enough time reading and studying current YA fiction.

/end rant.

Not offended in the least!

I actually liked it better BEFORE I dumbed it down and really am struggling with the vocab now. My ten dollar words just dont have the same effect when translated into kid-speak so I am losing a lot of the descriptive value those bigger, more complicated, words offer.
And I am getting repetitive because there are limited 'dumb' words to translate the bigger words into.
:Headbang:

About the only YA I have read recently are the HP books. But I am reading them as an adult and dont find them dumbed down at all. I dont know if that is just them though.
I recently went to the library and took out some books I remember reading as a kid. I thought the books I liked would give me a better idea of where I should be. They didnt. I remember reading and loving them in grade 4 and found them, now, in the YA section. They were extremely easy to read.
Completely different than the HP books.
 
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OverTheHills&FarAway

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Example:

When I was about twelve I read John Steinbeck's The Red Pony. It was a story about a boy and a horse, right? I loved it. Being a big animal freak back then, I ate it with a spoon and cried especially hard at the end.

Now, as an adult and a writer, I'm rereading it. And you can be sure this is more than just a story about a boy and his horse. Simple tale? On the surface. I'm enjoying it even more remembering my love for this book and picking up on all the subtleties and themes and metaphors I just missed when I was twelve. But somehow, back then, I think I understood all that. On the inside, without even knowing it. I took it in and it became one little piece of what I eventually became. A lover of the written word, looking beyond the surface in all things in life.
 

meldy

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Yes, that is it.

And that was after the first 'dumb down' its been re-edited a few times since then (I am a bit obsessed with editing it actually lol) I am trying to get rid of all the unnecessary bits which is hard since those are usually my favorite parts *sigh*

A whole pile of dialogue has also been added after that.

And the action I am working on. I know, I dont have a 'hook'. I may just move the whole beginning. Or lose it (which has also been suggested) I dont know yet.
I dont have enough done after that to decide yet.
 

meldy

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The Critter on SYW. :e2paperba

I have so few people actually putting in the time to read it I tend to take the ones who do very seriously.

As I am new to this whole writing thing I take all advice and, if it makes sense, I apply it.

I am just not hugely happy with the results in this case.
 

writermom

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First, I would write the entire first draft before editing (at least majorly) - you'll only drive yourself crazy and not finish.

Second, I think that sample was right on with the language.

More important, how did the language feel to you?

Why don’t you post a paragraph how you first had it and then post the same paragraph how you have it now? I’m sure you’ll get plenty of opinions. ;)
 

meldy

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Thanks!

The beginning stayed pretty much the same. Chunks have been cut out, not because they were dumbed down, but because they were irrelevant.

I think the version posted already has most of those missing though. Its the parts I have at home that are driving me to drink but you cant see those so you have no clue what I am talking about lol.

I think I may just go and beef up my dialogue a bit. I have a conversation between teens that reads a bit like my 12 yr old talking to my 4 yr old. It has brought my score down to 4.2 grade level (I really like this test thing lol) I just dont like making my MC, who is supposed to be super smart, sound like a 'normal' kid.
She isnt normal and I hope, via her vocabulary(as one tool), I could drive that home a bit.
Now I am worried I am dumbing her down too much and losing that part of her.

My MC is also a bit less philisophical and a bit more 'real' so I dont know if I can go back and make her more real in the beginning and a bit less detached and robotic sounding or if I should just leave it.
I am not sure how to lose the unemotional narration of it.

I might change some of my 'stuff'('s) back to 'belongings' since you can only read 'stuff' so many times before it gets really repetitive. And my 'accidentally' back to 'inadvertantly'..little things like that which changed it slightly. (but the portion posted is pretty much the same to the one I am still working on with the exception of missing the next bit)

So we will see. I hope to get this next chapter banged off and then post it in SYW and see what happens.

Thanks everybody. Off to write now......
 

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Do not: REPEAT: DO NOT get wedded to Fleish-Kincade reading levels. You are a reader. Trust your own instincts. Don't let anyone make you think things need to be dumbed down. Writing for kids is just the opposite. They want to be challenged. You need all your skills to hold their attention.

Good luck with the writing and welcome to the forum!
 

meldy

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Since I cant post the different first paragraph..here is the next bit and you will see what I mean by sounding super dumbed down (IMO)
It was written after the critique of the first bit taking into account the critiquers comments.

Please be aware this is super rough still....and I am REALLY bad at punctuation in dialogue so that is likely a bit of a mess (I dont know, I can't figure it out lol)

**

I had almost finished the sandwich when Margaret’s daughters came into the kitchen. They startled me since they had not come in the front door but seemed to appear out of nowhere.

“Jezebel these are my daughters, Catherine and Susan, “Margaret pointed each one of them out as she said the girls’ name. Tall and skinny like their mother, they could have been twins had they not been different ages. Both girls were wearing plaid school uniforms, Susan, the smaller of the two girls, suited in her uniform quite well in a cute kind of way. Her older sister looked considerably more grown up and filled the uniform out in ways that would make most men swoon. I felt self conscious standing in front of them both because I was neither cute nor filled out enough to even be noticeable as a girl.

“Hi” I said, smiling at both of them.

“Hello Jezebel,” they answered in unison.

Creepy. I had a flashback to the twins in “The Shining” and briefly smiled. I turned to Margaret, unsure of what to expect now and worried about overstepping any boundaries. It was always like living on eggshells the first few weeks in a new place until the routine became established.

“Girls, you go and put on your play clothes please while Jezebel washes her hands.” She told her daughters.

Play clothes? Her daughters looked near to my age and play clothes seemed like such an odd thing. Where were we expected to play, I wondered, that anyone would need different clothes? Surely we weren’t expected to truly play? The whole concept seemed strange and foreign and I wasn’t sure how to react.

As the girls walked quietly down the hall to what I assumed were their bedrooms Margaret motioned me to the bathroom, which turned out to be across from my bedroom, to clean myself up from my late lunch.

“You can wait in the yard for the girls. They will be out shortly.” She said as I dried my hands, “The door is this way.” And she led me to a back door located in the laundry room. This, it seemed, was where the two girls had entered before based on the neatly stacked shoes on a shelf next to the door. To my surprise my shoes were here as well.

“Wait in the yard and don’t go outside the fence.” Margaret commanded as she held open the door for me.

The back yard was as immaculate as the front and lined with neat flowerbeds. In the middle of the yard a massive wooden swing-set/jungle-gym had been erected. I stopped dead partway across the lawn. Surely we weren’t expected to actually play on this set? The yard lacked anywhere else to sit except on the ground itself and a swing seemed a decent alternative. I took a seat on a swing, idly pushing the sand around with the toe of my shoe. The sound of the two girls coming down the wooden steps from the door interrupted my doodling in the sand. This would be the real test I knew. If I couldn’t get along with the two kids I was as good as gone.

Catherine walked confidently towards me, Susan trailing behind and wandering off to climb the wooden fort attached to the swing set. They were once again dressed in matching outfits: corduroy pants, pink blouses and running shoes.

“Hi” Catherine took the swing next to me “So what do you think?” she asked.

“About what,” I asked, confused.

“My mother, she’s a real piece of work isn’t she?” She said pushing off the ground with her feet.

“I am telling you said that,” came a cry from beneath the canvas roof above us.

“Go ahead, I dare you.” Catherine responded, the threat clear in her voice.

Now I was really confused and waited in silence, starting at the sand at my feet, unsure of what was going on.

“It’s okay, you can tell me. I think she sucks too.” Catherine turned her attention back to me, her voice growing in volume as she swung by me.

“She seems nice” I said quietly.

“Pfftt, no she doesn’t” Catherine spat,”she is an uppity freak who needs to learn to relax.”

I was left with no way to respond. In truth I found Margaret a bit odd so far but no weirder than many of the other caregivers I had in the past. I certainly wouldn’t term her a freak.

“So how old are you?” I changed the subject.

“Sixteen and ‘the Trog’ over there is twelve” She indicated her sister who was hanging upside down on a bar. “So do you have a boyfriend? I do, his name is Mark and he’s awesome but I only get to see him at school and Mom would freak if she found out. He doesn’t go to my school though. Ours is an all girls school and it sucks but he comes to school and picks me up in his car”

I looked at Susan, alarmed that Catherine appeared to be bearing her soul in front of witnesses.

“Don’t worry, she won’t tell, she is far too afraid of death. Aren’t you Trog?” Susan ignored her sister’s taunts.

“So how did you end up a foster kid anyway?” Catherine asked.

“It’s a long story,” I hated questions like that and hoped the subject would get dropped although I knew that was probably not going to be the case.

“I have time.” She replied.

“Mom said we weren’t supposed to ask her stuff like that Catherine” Susan intercepted from her perch on top a pile of tires.

Thank you Susan.

“Shut Up Trog”

Damn.

“So, spill,” Catherine turned back to me.

“Why do you call her ‘Trog’?” I asked, desperate for a subject change.

“Cause she‘s a cross between a toad and a frog” came the matter-of-fact reply. Then there was an awkward silence for a little while. The chains of the swings squealing as Catherine swung high and I moved slightly, pivoting on my toes.

“So you’re like a homeless person right? No one wants you that’s why you’re here?” Catherine asked.

“Sort of.”

“So do you go to school?” Catherine asked.

“No, not usually. Sometimes. I am registered at Sam. Jr. but it’s pretty far away so I don’t go often”

“Can’t you like bus or something?”

“Ya, probably. It would just take a long time. It’s pretty boring anyway” And in truth it was. Even when I had lived nearby I only ever went to the classes I liked so what’s the point.

“So you are a dropout then? What do you do all day? What are you going to do when you grow up? How are you even going to get a job without school?” a barrage of questions assaulted me.

“Didn’t you just say your boyfriend picked you up from school?” I said with a hint of challenge in my voice,” So you’re missing school too but it’s okay for you?”

“Well I go to a private school. You have to be smart to get in so all I need to do is graduate and I can get a great job. I don’t even need to try. I could barely pass and still turn out better than you being a drop out.”

“You don’t need to be smart to get in, you need to be rich, and you need more than a piece of paper to get you a good job” I answered her although I knew she was probably right.

“So what do you do all day then? Are you one of those street kids? Do you like rob people or something? Why doesn’t anyone want you? What’s wrong with you?” I knew she wouldn’t drop the subject that easily.

“I don’t do anything all day” I said.

“Nothing? How do you get clothes and stuff” She looked slightly disgusted with my now day old wardrobe.

“The government buys it all”

“Cool”

“No, actually it’s not”

“How could that not be cool?” She asked, incredulous, “you do what you want; they buy you what you want. You don’t have to go to school? The Government is rich. I’d love to have that as my parents. That would be cool”

“Ya, and I don’t have a home, or a family, or friends most of the time cause I move so much and they don’t buy whatever I want I get an allowance. It’s not cool, it sucks” I replied. I never understood why people thought my life was so great.

“Whatever. You just haven’t learned to use it yet.” She shot back, getting off her swing with a graceful leap and heading back to the house.

“Don’t mind her” Susan said. I flinched at the sound, “She’s just mad because she can’t see her friends and her boyfriend when she is at home. Mom doesn’t even know she has a boyfriend.”

“Why not?”

“Because Mom won’t let her. It’s against the rules. That’s why she hates Mom so much I think” Susan watched the door to the house close behind Catherine’s retreating frame. “So do you like your room?” She turned back to me.

“Ya, it’s nice.”

“That’s good. Mom was really worried that you wouldn’t like it. We just did all that on the weekend you know, when we heard you were coming. She wanted it to be pretty because you’re a girl.”

“How did you know I was coming?” I hadn’t even known I was coming and it irritated me to know everyone else knew what was going on in my life so much better than I did.

“I don’t know,” She answered.” Mom just said we had a girl coming to live with us and we had to get the extra room pretty for you. So we did. Well me and Mom did, Catherine just watched. That cat picture is out of my room you know, I thought you would like it. I have one just like it except the kitten’s are playing with a ball and not just sitting there.”

“It’s cute.” I said, not wanting to hurt her feelings.

“So do you really not go to school? Don’t you miss it. I like school. I’d rather be at school than home sometimes.” She sat in the empty swing her sister had left.

“No, not really. Sometimes I guess. You kinda get used to it when you don’t go for a while. So what do you do all day besides school?”

“Mom has us on a schedule because she says that is good for us so we do the same thing all the time during school days. On weekends we do lots of different things. Like this weekend we went shopping for stuff for your room.”

Our conversation was interrupted by Margaret calling out the door for us to come in for dinner. I followed Susan into the house and into the bathroom to wash our hands for dinner.

The table in the kitchen was set and the middle sported a steaming casserole dish of something covered in cheese that smelled heavenly. Margaret motioned me to take the same seat I had sat in earlier in the day, across from her own seat with the girls on either side.

“Salad?” Margaret asked holding the salad tongs.

“Yes please.” And she placed some neatly on my plate before returning the tongs to the salad bowl and picking up the spoon next to the casserole dish.

“Lasagne?” she asked.

“Yes please.” I nodded, noticing the other girls were serving themselves.

“Milk?” she picked up the jug of milk from the table.“Yes please.”

Catherine snorted.

“Catherine. That’s enough.” Margaret said sternly, the tension in the room mounted considerably. Susan and I exchanged glances.

“She isn’t a baby Mother” Catherine, disgust obvious in her voice.

I could feel the burn of my cheeks.
 

Toothpaste

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I can't be sure, but I am wondering if the person who made the comments, didn't mean for you to dumb it down, but to change the voice a bit. There is something about the tone of the piece that sounds like an adult wrote it and not a 1st POV from a high school girl. But that isn't about "dumbing it down" (a horrible phrase that I hate by the way - it shows a lack of respect towards the reader if you know what I mean). Dumbing it down as it were is to get rid of big words, and to try to make sure your audience understands what they are reading. You don't really need to worry about that with teenagers. What you should worry about is an authentic teenage voice, which isn't quite coming across (at least to me) yet. Do you see the distinction? Sometimes I'm not really that clear on this board.
 

writermom

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I can't be sure, but I am wondering if the person who made the comments, didn't mean for you to dumb it down, but to change the voice a bit. There is something about the tone of the piece that sounds like an adult wrote it and not a 1st POV from a high school girl. But that isn't about "dumbing it down" (a horrible phrase that I hate by the way - it shows a lack of respect towards the reader if you know what I mean). Dumbing it down as it were is to get rid of big words, and to try to make sure your audience understands what they are reading. You don't really need to worry about that with teenagers. What you should worry about is an authentic teenage voice, which isn't quite coming across (at least to me) yet. Do you see the distinction? Sometimes I'm not really that clear on this board.

I second this.
 

OverTheHills&FarAway

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It doesn't really sound like YA. Sounds more like an adult telling the story of when she was a teenager. Like Curtis Sittenfeld's Prep, but more so. I'd say read some real YA to get a feel for the voice that people consider "YA." A teenager talking to teenagers.
 

meldy

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Okay, I will do that. Any suggestions on 1st person POV YA novels?

Would it work better with a different POV?
 

OverTheHills&FarAway

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An Abundance of Katherines by John Green.

Not first person, and a little older than your character, but it's about a very smart teenager and still manages to make him sound like a teenager. Brilliant book.
 

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Dumb

I think you're missing the point of Fleish-Kincade. Ernest Hemingway never dumbed down his writing for anyone, but he wrote at fifth grade level. Using a good, understandable style has nothing at all to do with dumbing down. It's called "writing well."

It's the content that matters, and the content is where actual dumbing down should never be done.
 

writermom

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Would it work better with a different POV?

Changing the POV will not help change the voice.

Practice your voice. You could have someone ask you questions that you answer in your MC’s voice (that might be a really fun thread actually). Or you could write a journal in your character’s voice. Anything that will help you discover what that voice is.
 
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bethany

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Why are you writing YA? What inspired you to write for this age level?

I'm asking because you may be telling a different sort of book, that isn't even YA, it all depends on the reason you want to write YA, and condescending to your readers isn't a good way to start. I can't stand to hear the words dumbed down used in regards to YA literature, and teens are reading smarter and more sophisticated material than most adults. Many adults don't even read.

For some good examples of great YA voice, try Speak by Laurie Halse Anderson, Looking for Alaska by John Green, Fat Kid Rules the World by KL Going
 
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