How Accurate is Accurate?

c.e.lawson · Aug 28, 2007

I'm in the process of writing my first historical novel. In this particular story, which is set in ancient Sparta, the emphasis is on the micro - the life of a girl and how Spartan values affect her as a person and influence the choices she makes. There is also a strong romantic thread. I will allude to various battles and possibly an occasional historic figure in the background, but all of my characters will be purely fictional. That said, I'm wondering about the following:

I posted an excerpt of my story for my writing group to critique. In the discussion, I mentioned the difficulty of finding the necessary historical detail for a place/era such as ancient Sparta, where so much information is lacking. (Especially with non-military and female stuff!) One of my writing group members responded with the following:

I think you need to keep clear in your mind that at least 95% of your potential readership have absolutely no clue about Spartan life and history at all. You do not have to be completely accurate in your portrayal of these things, you're not writing a textbook or an academic paper. You just have to be plausible and persuasive. For me, not knowing a whole lot (thanks for clearing up the Spartiate thing, btw), this really worked. You have to make 21st century readers feel sympathy for Melaina, not actual Spartans! Of course your research is important - you can't just write it as if it is modern America, but you don't have to be bound by it. This is your world and you're in charge.

This person actually translates ancient documents from Greek for part of her doctoral program, so she's no slacker in the ancient Greece department.

Now, I have been trying my best to be historically accurate down to small details, but I'm curious as to your thoughts on the above. Do I have more "wriggle room" given that my story is not about actual historical figures or events? How do I know where to draw the line and stop searching for that elusive historical fact and simply "make something up"?

Any thoughts on the matter are welcome.

c.e.

wee · Aug 28, 2007

Uhhhhhh... it depends?

Have you read a respected historical novel from a period that you are very familiar with, to see how it was treated?

I would say that you shouldn't write anything that would be improbable in that era or would make a Spartan historian grimace. A stupid example would be: you don't want your Spartan warrior to pull out his GPS to check his coordinates. Okay, that is obvious, but you could make mistakes that are just as silly to someone familiar with this civilization if you just make things up willy-nilly.

I just did a scene where I wasn't sure about how a particular group was traveling overland -- did they have tents at this point, or just camp out in the open, or what? So I just stuck to the action and skipped any reference to this for now.

Knowing these details makes it richer in description, but I don't want to say, "so-and-so lifted the tent flap and entered," and then find out this group didn't travel with them. I will make a little comment in my text that says, "find out more about travel logistics" and then move on with what I do know right now.

Know as much as you possibly can, & then write your story. I also suggest making friends with a college professor or historian who specializes in this era, and appeal to that person's ego while humbly asking for help. If you can find a person like this who would later be willing to read your manuscript for factual errors, then start sending them flowers & chocolates & jewelry right away (ok, just kidding there).

The most important things you must know are the ones that will be integral to the plot & behavior of the characters. Second you need to know enough to be able to embroider the story & build the scene & setting.

If you don't know a lot of this yet, start outlining the plot a bit & keep researching.

How much research have you done? Can you picture in your mind what a regular, dull day in the life of a Spartan would be if nothing of interest went on that day? For various people of different classes & genders?

c.e.lawson · Aug 28, 2007

Hi Wee,

Thanks so much for your thoughtful response.

I suppose I'm asking the question more rhetorically, to get a sense of what others who are in this think about readers' expectations of my kind of story. Like you said in your first sentence - no one can really answer this one for me, but it's fun to discuss!

I think I'm over the hump for much of the research to get started, but BOY, the hump was huge! I want to be VERY accurate. I just don't know if that's overkill. I found I could hardly write a sentence without looking something up, and it's taken me literally months to go from an idea in my head, to having only the first two chapters written. I have no background in history, ancient Greek or otherwise, so I was really starting from scratch. It is gratifying, however, to learn about a culture in depth, and I don't regret the research time for an instant.

I, like you, am saving some of the details for later - the ones that I am having trouble finding an answer to - so that I can get the story down. But I love detail and description, so that's going to be a time-consuming process, I'm sure. I will have to resort to expert help, I'm afraid, since I can only get so far with my own reading.

Your tent question is a perfect example. How many of your readers will know or even care if that sort of thing is accurate? It seems to be such a small detail in terms of a larger story, but it can turn out to be more important than one assumes. I've had questions like that. For instance - a common mode of longer distance travel in ancient Greece was with mules. I could have assumed that would be the same in ancient Sparta. But during my research I find that it's not so - that in Sparta, uniquely, horses were highly prized and ridden, even by women. So what seems at first to be no big deal and something I could have assumed, can actually turn out to be a very big deal in day to day life description. But how many of my readers would have known or cared? And how many years is it going to take me to write this story, LOL? (another rhetorical question, BTW

)

PastMidnight · Aug 28, 2007

Good question, c.e.! I am looking at a different interpretation of what your critiquer said, however. I don't see it as a suggestion to allow inaccuracy to creep into your writing, but rather a suggestion to not worry about having every detail in the name of accuracy.

With the first novel that I was working on, I tended to do the same as wee, worrying about tents and tentstakes. I was driving myself nuts with research! I tried to take a more relaxed approach with the next, leaving holes where I needed to do more research. When I came back through, I then weighed whether I really needed to do the research and add the additional information. In many places, I decided that it wasn't necessary. I didn't make anything up, didn't put in any inaccurate or questionable information, but decided that, in some places, the amount of research needed to determine what style of tent stakes were used wasn't worth it for the brief sentence I would write.

I do agree that, with wholly fictional characters, you have a little more leeway and perhaps less research that needs to be done, as you don't have to accurately reproduce a well-known historical figure, but you are still held to the same general standard of accuracy.

I know that a lot of writers will disagree on this, cheerfully adjusting dates and general historical chronology to suit their story. I feel that I adhere very strongly to historical accuracy, but I'm coming to feel that less may be more, if you know what I mean. I can still convey an accurate, interesting story without driving myself crazy over research.

Doogs · Aug 28, 2007

Interesting question, c.e.! One I've had my fair share of battles with, and one, I think, that segues right into that delicate balance of creating what is, in essence, an alien world while avoiding information overload.

It's hard to paint this one with a broad brush. The level of accuracy depends on the fact/event/whatever's relevance to and potential impact on the story. So whether your Melaina wraps her sandal lacings left to right or right to left is probably neither here nor there. That she would ride a horse rather than a mule, though, could have relevance, particularly if she encountered a party of Corinthians who are scandalized at the sight of a woman on horseback, etc.

Personally, I try to avoid inaccuracy. And for those things that simply cannot be known, I strive for plausibility.

As for when to add detail and when to gloss over, I think it has to do with the importance to the story. For example, I largely gloss over the ritual sacrifice and the taking of the auspices that would precede any meeting of the Senate. But my MC's wedding ceremony and all its kooky customs gets a pretty thorough examination, as it is a pretty big deal for him.

EDIT: I guess I would say do your research, know as much as you can, apply plausible substitutes for what you can't, and be judicious in your use of both.

Puma · Aug 28, 2007

And, realize that it only takes one person to complain to the right parties about the inaccuracies of a book to start the wheels rolling on pulling it from shelves. We've just gone through this at work - historical children's novel with blatant mistakes brought to a VIPs attention by one person - and it was pulled and won't be re-issued until all the problems are cleaned up. Expensive situation for the publisher.

Accuracy is important - essential - in historical works. If someone else can check your data/information (on Google even) and find a mistake, then you better check it first. If you can't find any data or information, then you may have a little bit more leeway. Puma

c.e.lawson · Aug 28, 2007

Wow, Puma - historical fiction pulled from the shelves for inaccuracies? Do you know specifically what type of inaccuracies? Interesting.

I like your interpretation of my critiquer's comments, PastMidnight. Makes good sense to me. And in the interest of practicality and finishing the book - analyzing the need for a specific detail is important.

I don't envy you, Doogs - your level of historical detail is higher, what with the political intrigues, and battlefield strategies, and real historical figures and what not that I don't have to worry about much at all in mine. (Though I will have a battle scene towards the last third of the book - ouch.)

Doogs · Aug 28, 2007

c.e.lawson said:
Wow, Puma - historical fiction pulled from the shelves for inaccuracies? Do you know specifically what type of inaccuracies? Interesting.

I'd be curious to know that myself. I've read a fair share of historical fiction with big, whopping, stop-you-in-your-tracks inaccuracies. The kind that make you wonder if the author did even the most basic of research.

wee · Aug 28, 2007

One problem I'm running into is that part of my story is driven by the clash of two cultures -- like the idea someone mentioned of a bunch of Corinthians being scandalized by a Spartan woman on a horse.

This makes it a little more complicated when subplots can be somewhat driven by mistakes & misunderstandings made by ethno-centric characters. Unless your story is only taking place withinin Sparta, you might find it worthwhile to do a little research also (unless you already have) on the surrounding civilizations. Sparta's history is bound up in its relationships with its geographical neighbors. Lots of things you can do with that in a story.

Doogs · Aug 28, 2007

c.e.lawson said:
I don't envy you, Doogs - your level of historical detail is higher, what with the political intrigues, and battlefield strategies, and real historical figures and what not that I don't have to worry about much at all in mine. (Though I will have a battle scene towards the last third of the book - ouch.)

Well, the heavy lifting's done, for what it's worth.

Honestly, the hardest part was wading through the inconsistencies and contradictions in the ancient texts. That, and keeping track - as much as one can, at any rate - of the complex and shifting alliances among the powerful families of the time.

pdr · Aug 28, 2007

Thiis is tricky...

because, as Puma mentioned, if you make an error and are found out, there is hell to pay. If you make a deliberate error to suit your story and yourself then you had better:

1 Come clean in a Note to Readers at the beginning of the book which was there when your manuscript first went to the publisher.

or

2. Be an honest writer.
As Past Midnight said, 'Be kind to yourself about every last detail. Indeed in your first draft you should have some kind of change of colour or ALL CAPS or a group of !!!! or *** to mark things you need to check. When you are shaping up the novel you will find, as PM said, that often you don't need to research a lot of the things.

For myself, your writing crit friend's comment: 'I think you need to keep clear in your mind that at least 95% of your potential readership have absolutely no clue about Spartan life and history at all.' is important. I don't want to be the one who gives people false information, knowing it is false or because I was too sloppy to do proper research.

I love research so it's no problem for me, and it must be done. You can tell when reading a historical if the writer knows their stuff or doesn't.

For you, c.e., I think you 'll get it right but just need to relax a little over the fine details.

c.e.lawson · Aug 28, 2007

Thanks for the encouragement, pdr.

*takes deep breath*

Excellent points. So it appears the key is that everything portrayed should be as accurate as possible, but the level of detail is where we need to use our judgement.

c.e.lawson · Aug 28, 2007

wee said:
One problem I'm running into is that part of my story is driven by the clash of two cultures -- like the idea someone mentioned of a bunch of Corinthians being scandalized by a Spartan woman on a horse.

This makes it a little more complicated when subplots can be somewhat driven by mistakes & misunderstandings made by ethno-centric characters. Unless your story is only taking place withinin Sparta, you might find it worthwhile to do a little research also (unless you already have) on the surrounding civilizations. Sparta's history is bound up in its relationships with its geographical neighbors. Lots of things you can do with that in a story.

Oh yes, wee - a significant part of my story will take place in Athens, where Melaina will live for a time, thereby giving me the great opportunity for her having all kinds of conflict with the extremely different status of women and their daily lives. Good stuff!

PastMidnight · Aug 29, 2007

This has been a very interesting thread! I love the fact that there is a historical board to host discussions like this. Before the historical board started, questions like this would just get lost in the general shuffle on the general novel-writing board.

c.e.lawson said:
So it appears the key is that everything portrayed should be as accurate as possible, but the level of detail is where we need to use our judgement.

Well said!

Puma · Aug 29, 2007

Hi Pastmidnight - Your comment confuses me. I think this historical genre forum has been around for quite a while (there are 137 pages). I'm pretty sure it was alive and well when I joined AW about a year and a half ago. The historical SYW board is only about a year old. That may be what you're thinking about.

Anyway - yes, this board is very nice, but, a lot of that has to do with the enthusiasm and interest of the participants. So, everyone, give yourself a pat on the back. Puma

wee · Aug 29, 2007

c.e.lawson said:
a significant part of my story will take place in Athens, where Melaina will live for a time, thereby giving me the great opportunity for her having all kinds of conflict with the extremely different status of women and their daily lives. Good stuff!

This will be an interesting read, I think!

PastMidnight · Aug 29, 2007

Puma said:
Hi Pastmidnight - Your comment confuses me. I think this historical genre forum has been around for quite a while (there are 137 pages). I'm pretty sure it was alive and well when I joined AW about a year and a half ago. The historical SYW board is only about a year old. That may be what you're thinking about.

Anyway - yes, this board is very nice, but, a lot of that has to do with the enthusiasm and interest of the participants. So, everyone, give yourself a pat on the back. Puma

Peeking back, it looks like this genre forum started last July, so about a year ago. When I first joined AW, I would post questions pertaining to historicals and they really would get lost on the novel-writing board. And then, to be fair, I didn't know that this genre board had been started right away until someone pointed me in the right direction. I remember right after I joined there was talk of starting a historical genre forum, but there didn't seem to be much interest.

But you are right about all of the enthusiasm we have here, especially recently!

Jamesaritchie · Aug 29, 2007

Accurate

If even 5% of your readers know you didn't get it right (And this is not giving readers much credit), you'll get blasted. It may be your book, but if you're writing about the real world, then accurate means just that. You make things dead on accurate, if they're things that 5% would know, and you save the inaccuracies for when something might or might not have happened a certain way, and for things not covered by the history books.

You can propose alternate reasons for why something happened, or for who really did something, as long as you let the readers know this is what you're doing.

But I've never understood why writers even wanted to be inaccurate, except for that last reason I mentioned.

BardSkye · Aug 29, 2007

My whole book is guesswork to an extent. I'm writing the Three Wisemen, or Three Kings of Christmas fame about which virtually nothing is known. Almost all of our preconceptions come from the song written quite recently (in historical terms).

Actual records? Well there's a paragraph in the Christian Bible. Contrary to popular opinion, it doesn't say how many Magi there were, where they were from or even if they were all actually male.

Such visits by "Magi" weren't all that unusual if something interesting was going on, which might be why it wasn't remarked on in other manuscripts.

Doogs · Aug 29, 2007

Jamesaritchie said:
But I've never understood why writers even wanted to be inaccurate, except for that last reason I mentioned.

I've never understood it, either, but I've seen plenty of instances. Usually it strikes me as a case of the author's bending or outright falsifying events to make them fit his or her story. Other times, it comes across as outright laziness.

Doogs · Aug 29, 2007

BardSkye said:
My whole book is guesswork to an extent. I'm writing the Three Wisemen, or Three Kings of Christmas fame about which virtually nothing is known. Almost all of our preconceptions come from the song written quite recently (in historical terms).

Actual records? Well there's a paragraph in the Christian Bible. Contrary to popular opinion, it doesn't say how many Magi there were, where they were from or even if they were all actually male.

Such visits by "Magi" weren't all that unusual if something interesting was going on, which might be why it wasn't remarked on in other manuscripts.

A good bit of mine is guesswork, too. I've got a fair amount of historical waypoints, and a lot of period detail, but there are whole sections about which nothing is or ever will be known. Such as what, exactly, my MC was up to (my story spans two years, and history mentions him exactly twice in that time). Or why so-and-so was elected dictator, or whether this battle was fought on the north or south bank of this river. A lot of it comes down to inference and analysis. Reading between what is known and arriving at what you, as a writer, researcher, and historian believe is likely to have happened.

a_sharp · Aug 29, 2007

This is my fascination with historical fiction. If you consider even as small a span of time as two years, it's crammed with events never recorded. What doesn't make it into the history books provides food for a fertile imagination, especially if your premise cannot be disproven by records.

The careful choice of historical gaps, such as early lives or domestic moments or personal entanglements made and forgotten, unearths opportunities for credible creative supposition that supports the historical record but doesn't rely on it. I know that's what draws me to my chosen era, and I'm sure the same goes for many of us here.

wee · Aug 29, 2007

a_sharp said:
This is my fascination with historical fiction. If you consider even as small a span of time as two years, it's crammed with events never recorded. What doesn't make it into the history books provides food for a fertile imagination, especially if your premise cannot be disproven by records.

Recently I changed the focus of what I'm working on, because I saw between the lines of what was written into several history books -- great fodder for what was really happening between people.

I'm sure that we'll make scurrilous correlations, find wrong motivations, etc. -- but if you can bring history really alive, make these characters real so that anyone who reads the story will remember this part of history & get a true sense of what it was like ... that is amazing.

BardSkye · Aug 30, 2007

How does everyone feel about an author saying up front: "I deliberately changed this from 6BC to 4BC for the sake of the story?" and then giving the accurate details in the afterword to prove they did their research?

I will be deliberately fudging some of the astronomical signs to make them fit (my Magi are all astrologer/astronomers). I'm also going with the more controversial timings for births and deaths that the scholars are still arguing over.

meldy · Aug 30, 2007

Every Historical fiction (even the King Arthur fantasies) that I have loved has been researched up the wazoo.

I hate to say that cause it likely means more work for you.
Which time frame are you looking at specifically? Early period? Peloponession war (spelled that wrong I think, sorry) or just before the Roman conquest?
If you write it after the Roman conquest then like most conquered areas Sparta would have been forced to adopt a lot of Roman customs and be subject to a Roman governor.(It may have gotten away with being a hard-assed country before but no one survived going against Rome) It could make your story easier or harder to write.

Little details can ruin it for someone who does know and generally people seeking out historical fiction books already have an era they love and have gathered a fair bit of knowledge about.

So on the tent thing. It can totally ruin a book for a reader to know they slept in a tent and have you write that only a certain level of soldier sleeps in a tent. Or none of them do......(I have no idea, Sparta is not my area of choice lol, Rome and the UK are)
Know what I mean?

How Accurate is Accurate?

c.e.lawson

wee

just a little

c.e.lawson

PastMidnight

Oponionated

Doogs

Puma

Retired and loving it!

c.e.lawson

Doogs

wee

just a little

Doogs

pdr

c.e.lawson

c.e.lawson

PastMidnight

Oponionated

Puma

Retired and loving it!

wee

just a little

PastMidnight

Oponionated

Jamesaritchie

BardSkye

Barbershoppin' Harmony Whore

Doogs

Doogs

a_sharp

Somebody give me an A

wee

just a little

BardSkye

Barbershoppin' Harmony Whore

meldy

Instant humanJust add coffee