Text vs. Artwork

NemoBook said:

I'm proud of the script I wrote for this mock-up, and consider it to be a great example of my ability to write for this medium. But I'm wondering how closely editors might look at the text. Should I beef it up and make it more "literary"? Will they assume that the panel compositions and the overall layout was based on my script or will they assume it was the illustrator's ideas?

-Adam

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WARNING! NO experience whatsoever, just some thoughts from a girl who recently got in to comics, and has been having a hell of fun writing one...

I don't think it matters. To me, I think the important part is the finished product. Sure, editors would like to think this writer can produce with many different artists, in case something happens to the first one and another can step in (but this is a one-shot graphic novel, right?) Then I don't think it matters.

If the panel compositions are well thought-out, does it matter who it came from, writer or artist, if it contributes to the whole? All the scripts I've been reading lately (which is only a handful, but a wide and diverse handful) suggests that writers are very eager to come up with something good, and let their artist know if something they've written doesn't work, then by all means change it! If it's for the better.


That said. The text. You mean what's actually going to end up in the comic, right? Not directions in the script? If it works, it works. In my experience in writing prose fiction, beefing up for ANY reason (especially to make it seem more "literary") is a bad idea. Bordering on second-guessing yourself. And this is a business with no room for second guessing.

Like someone said on here recently. Some play to win. Some play to not-lose. What do you play for?

I used to play for keeps. Ending up losing all my marbles.

Maybe THAT'S what's wrong with me....?

And yeah. Writing comics has been, like, an incredible experience. Forces me to use a different part of my brain, one I thought I left behind in the High School art room. Used to live there, man. Glad to be able to think visually again. But...not totally visually. Still gotta think words. The combination has been challenging in a very good way, and has definitely supercharged my prose.

Best thing to happen to me, really. (When it comes to writing, of course.)

Best wishes on the endeavor, man. Hope you get a few nibbles and lots of bites!

Having recently decided to take one of my screenplays and turn it into a comic series has been the most challenging and rewarding experience of my life.

It's not just a matter of trimming dialog so it fits that tiny bubble.

There's a sense of tighter pacing and key action scenes that must come to the forefront.

You have to write lean and mean and hit those key points in your plot without making it feel like a readers digest version.

My 114 page script is being done in 4, 22 page parts (88 page total for story arc). you would think that it just means to trim out 16 pages?

Nope. the first issue comes in at 22 pages, but in screenplay page count it fell at page 20. I cut out scenes, trimmed scenes and added 2 scenes to make the pacing work better in a comic. So, when all is said and done, my 114 page script will be probably at 70 pages.

Another thing is length of scenes. you can have a five page scene in a script but 5 pages of one scene in a comic gets real boring and eats up a 1/4 of your page count for that issue.

Then comes the end of your issue. I luckily found a good place for the 1st issue to end, but had to add a scene/page to bring the story to a cliffhanger and remind people what the genre is.

So much work but so rewarding. I look at writing now in a whole new light.

Every writer should read comics to see how to maintain interest, give character development and show story through action and pictures.

Oh and by the way... The Eyes of Mara #1 will be avaiable for sale in mid Sept. Stay tuned for ways of ordering, either a hard copy or digital download.

Writing a comic script seems to be easy to me, after I learned how to write it. I just need to make sure my artist could understand it. But I'm also drawing some comics to get better at it. At the San Diego Comic Con, I met the writer, who wrote stories for Transformers. He said it's better to draw and write the comic yourself, but it's okay if I just write comics. When I get better at drawing comics, I'll begin making my own. For now, I'm going to write comic and manga scripts.

Joe Calabrese said:

My 114 page script is being done in 4, 22 page parts (88 page total for story arc).

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Joe, may I ask why you didn't go for the graphic novel/trade paperback format?

Simple.
It aint done yet. Issue 1 was put to bed a few weeks ago and Issue 2 is almost done with the thumbnails and references.

It's taking us 2 to 3 months to produce each issue. Lost of references to hunt down to be historically accurate and my penciller/inker can only do 6-8 pages a month. Publishing quarterly give me the time to get each issue out with plenty of time to spare. I would rather release early versus late.

So my plan is to have each issue out quarterly and then when all have been self published, publish with the entire story arc as a graphic novel (if the sales figures are good perhaps a publisher will do it) to be put together with the sketch book of concept art from over a dozen artists from around the world, storyboards from a Lucas Arts designer of the opening scenes, and perhaps the complete un-produced screenplay, bringing it in at a hefty 225-250 page book.

That's the plan.

Hey Nemo.

I am currently in the mindset of self publishing and the 1st issue (of 4) comes out Sept 15th and will be available through Indyplanet.com, a dozen or so stores in the NYC area and in L.A, or if you want it quick, there will be a digital download via the website.

My artists? They are awesome. One is from India and the other in Connecticut so you can imagine the emails going back and forth at a furious pace.

Info on them can also be found on the website.

I am still revamping the website, but the new design and layout is live now. feel free to check it out.

Thanks Nemo.

I am very proud of it.

Be sure a buy a copy.

Shades a 200 page graphic novel that deals with British Super heroes.

here's a link.

http://www.brokenvoice.co.uk/shades surround.html

I offer this as an example. Take it for what it's worth.

I have a couple of contacts with small but decent publishers - the indie side of the business. They're open to me pitching them anything at any time.

I sent one a couple of ideas. And they liked the ideas but didn't go beyond that. So I took a script and found myself an artist and I sent my friendly neighborhood publisher some art (to be specific, one finished page and four pages of thumbnails - they were VERY high quality thumbnails). The book is now penciled into their 2008 schedule.

Now granted, they publisher knows my writing, they like my stuff. We've met in person and hung out (which is something you can't always do, but it makes a difference), but they have not seen a specific script for this project. They only read my pitch, which was very loose and informal (again, an advantage of being "in"). But it was the art that sold the project.

I should also point out that I didn't just go for any artist I could find, I went for a really good artist who had a very stylized look that really played into the feel of the story. Looking at the very small selection of pages of art, you get a real feel for the tone and the way the story will play out.

So to sum up, the idea, the story, MY part, is actually the thing the publisher is excited about, BUT without the art I sent them, they would not have picked up the project.

Like I said, take it for what it's worth to you.

I've been writing my own comics for a while now and I love it. I enjoy the challenge of tightening up dialogue and trimming narrative panels. In my short stories I blather on and on and on but my comics are trim and funny. I'm one of those hyper-control freak comic scripters that arranges the panels and gives lots of scenic cues as well. My sister has been doodling with the drawings (I hope she'll buckle down and start to illustrate them soon) and she's found the massive amounts of panel description very helpful and helps prepare her actually drawing it. I love that my sis and I have been tinkering with comics, we need more chicks making comics. ^_^

That being said... what's this thread about now? ^_^ Did the young Nemo fella find his answer?

-An

wordmonkey said:

I offer this as an example. Take it for what it's worth.

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Your ancedote reminded me of a message board exchange I had with a DC editor (now long, long fired and returned to managing the comics shop from whence he shambled) about eleven years ago.

The so-called industry was still struggling to crawl out from beneath the rubble of the crash of 92-93.

On this particular AOL board, aspiring scripters were venting their frustration about why not only they couldn't get work at DC, they couldn't even find an editor willing to glance at their submissions.

This editor pompously proclaimed there was indeed work available for writers at DC, but only if the work was extraordinary. He stated that DC was just like any other big publisher of novels and such, so the quality of the submissions had to stand out, just like in the conventional publishing world.

He then posted the advice that if aspiring writers wanted to write for DC, they should move to NYC and try to find work, no matter how menial, in the DC offices...like cleaning Paul Levitz's executive toilet with a toothbrush, I guess...or taking this particular editor to lunch.

I asked him: "So, you think if someone aspires to be a novelist, the best tactic is to get a job emptying waste-baskets at Random House?"

No, he said. "You need to write a novel."

Well, I responded, "If DC and 'real' publishing operate on the same standards, why wouldn't that advice you just handed out be applicable to every publisher?"

He declined to reply. Come to think of it, he never posted again. A year or so later he was fired.

Anyway, in the so-called comics industy, it's definitely an advantage to be "in".

Not so much with "real" publishing.

Getting "in"

OK, since the "in" part IS an issue, here is ONE way to get in.

Work for free.

Now before anyone (possibly quite rightly) jumps all over me for suggesting that, let me clarify, this is JUST for breaking in.

In the initial stages, exposure, getting your name on the cover of a book, is worth more to you than a poor-man's page-rate.

You get to work with people, you get to have access to THEIR contacts, you get to build yourself a reputation for quality, speed, imagination, being a generally good guy.

Now in the short term, I would say take anything. Then you can start to be a little more picky, taking projects that you really connect to or offer you a chance to work with people you like/admire/can bump your career.

Once you're rolling, you'll be "in" and can work the situation to get where you really wanna be.

That's ONE way. Might not be for everyone, but it is a way.

(If it makes you feel better, look on the free work as an investment in your career. You'll usually get lots more creative freedom, less pressure on a deadline and if you try to get your own book rolling, you'll be looking for an art team to work for deferred pay, so look on it as a little karmic balancing.)

If you're in it for the money, ignore this post.

wordmonkey said:

OK, since the "in" part IS an issue, here is ONE way to get in.

Work for free.

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I never heard of that being an option.

Work for who for free?

NemoBook said:

Yeah, that particular brand of advice seems especially misguided. Being "in" pays dividends, I'm sure, but I can't imagine that the best way to ingratiate yourself with a particular crew is to become their bitch.

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Actually, it was fairly common counsel handed out to wanna-bes for many years...it was only workable if you were in your late teens or early twenties, had nothing else to do and didn't mind either living on the street, on somebody's couch or you had very indulgent parents.

It was also common that if you managed to get scripting work in that fashion, you were expected to toss a few "thank you" bucks in the direction of the editors.

Less charitable observers referred to the practice as kick-backs.

NemoBook said:

I'd think there'd be a conflict of interest there too, trying to pitch your bosses and such. Glad to hear that editor didn't stick around DC too long.

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Well, that's how a number of comics scripters broke in during the Marvel and DC expansion of the late 80s and early 90s...like Scott Lobdell, who just hung out in the Marvel offices, following the Have Laptop, Will Write For Free dictum.

NemoBook said:

Glad to hear that editor didn't stick around DC too long.

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A lot of editors hired during that period didn't stick around too long. They were used strictly as schedulers, traffic managers.

During that expansion, pre-crash time, Don Heck told me that he visited the Marvel offices and saw tacked to the lobby bulletin board a sign that read: "Editors Wanted--No Experience Necessary".

He thought it was a joke and when he mentioned it somebody in the Marvel editorial hierarchy, he was told, no...it was a legitimate advertisement.

Editors were hiring as their assistants guys who had no more qualifications than the fact they went to grade school with them and once read comic books.

There was another DC editor (I can't remember his name at the moment) who pompously informed me at a Dragon*Con that DC's position in regards to Native American characters was that only Tim Truman could write and/or draw them.

That was his reason for refusing to even glance at four-page mini-proposal about reviving the Scalphunter character in a contemporary setting.

Anyway, I found that statement so breath-takingly stupid, I went over to Tim Truman's table (who I was acquainted with), repeated the editor's statement and he squinted in astonishment and incredulity.

"Huh? What? Who said that? Huh?"

So we went back over to the editor and I asked the guy to repeat to Tim what he had just told me in regards to DC's "No Tim Truman Injuns" policy.

The guy mumbled, and muttered and then said, "Hey, I've got a panel to get to!" and very quickly disappeared into the crowd.

Anyway...I went ahead and did the Scalphunter revival but as my own character...since all I wanted was the title, anyway.

http://www.comicspace.com/markaxlerellis/comics.php?action=gallery&comic_id=3269

Also to address and re-evaluate Word's suggestion about working for free....

In a very real sense, that's exactly what you are doing if you get caught up in the "Proposal Competitions" held on a regular basis by Marvel and DC editors.

They solicit proposals for old character revivials, mini-series and like from aspiring scripters. Since more often than not, the proposals deal with corporate-owned characters and concepts, the writer has no recourse once the material is turned in...and sometimes lifted and given to another scripter, who usually writes two or three titles for the company anyway.

So, yeah, you're working for free in that instance. Rarely has a substantial pay-off for anybody I've heard of, though...except maybe for the publisher.

Axler said:

I never heard of that being an option.

Work for who for free?

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There are plenty of people looking for writers but they can't afford a page-rate. Not as many as are looking for artists for free.

Look on Digital Webbing (a whole section looking for writers - and not all for free), look in the submissions section too, and the collaborations.

PencilJack and Figma are the same. Or were last I looked.

There will be artists looking for writers, there are even the odd small indie publisher looking.

Sometimes you'll find the "I have a great idea for a book/comic/GN/series and I just need a writer. It's a guaranteed winner and we'll split the profits 70:30." Now you'll usually find the split breakdown is always in their favor (because ideas are hard, right? The ACTUAL writing part, well, that's easy!) and I would personally ALWAYS ignore those kinds.

Be smart. If it looks hokey, don't bother. If the deal looks too good to be true, it probably is. If they tell you up front that you likely will make no money, but it will definitely get published, that's more realistic, but you should remember that a book is only ever definitely published and available when it's published and available.

I've done this. It requires a leap of faith on your part and odds are you WILL get burned at some point. But if you check out the people you're working with as much as you can, trust your gut, and be ready to risk getting a little battered and bruised, you will start to at the very least, make a network of contacts for yourself.

You might get nothing from the book you write, but remember, artists are wanting to break in, and if they work up your script and show it around to bigger editors, YOUR writing is being shown around and you don't have to lift a finger.

I'm guessing Axler doesn't like this idea, but as I said, if you are completely on the outside, lacking a body of work and some contacts you can work with, doing this is a way to build contacts. Contacts are what get you in. Assuming the work is up to par, obviously.

EDIT -
Actually I was talking about working solely with indies and creatives. But what Axler says about the big two is right. FInd an old character, rework, and rty to sell them on your reimagining. But as I've said before, it's easier to get anyone to look at your work if it's accompanied by art. And amazing art, at that.

wordmonkey said:

I'm guessing Axler doesn't like this idea, but as I said, if you are completely on the outside, lacking a body of work and some contacts you can work with, doing this is a way to build contacts.

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Since I'm a professional writer, I'm against the idea of working for free in principle, particularly in a field as prone to intellectual property theft as the so-called comics industry.

Having said that...I tacitly agree with you that undertaking a joint project with an aspiring artist is a sound way to build up a body of work...as long as you understand the risks.

wordmonkey said:

FInd an old character, rework, and rty to sell them on your reimagining. But as I've said before, it's easier to get anyone to look at your work if it's accompanied by art. And amazing art, at that.

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Ye-a-a-h....but...

Most of the time the editors are the ones looking to revive an old character or title to expand their stable. They throw the revival idea out first to a pool of freelancers...who snarl and bite and claw to be the first to turn the proposal in.

Then, waaaaay too often, the editor cherry-picks elements from the various proposals, and then hands the list to a scripter who is already working for the company and is a known quantity, maybe with his own fan following.