Introducing Critical Details...

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Doogs

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Okay. I've got myself a quandary I'm hoping you all could help me out with.

Basically, I feel that my first chapter tries to introduce too much at once. I have some ideas for how to handle most of the information overload, but there's one section that is giving me fits.

This section introduces the various unit types of the Roman army, describing their armor and weaponry, their ages, the classes of society from which they are drawn, etc. Yes, it is every bit as dry and "expositiony" as it sounds. Unfortunately, it is also critical to understanding the later battles.

I'm thinking of handling this problem by gradually expanding my MC's POV, and leaving the introduction of the various classes of infantry until he finds himself in the position of commanding them.

Has anybody here done anything similar, expanding a character's awareness to encompass a broader "view" of the world around him/her? I think it fits in this case, as he gains experience and takes on more and more responsibility, but at the same time I'm hesitant that holding back the details of the army could make them jarring to the reader when they are introduced.
 

batgirl

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Patrick O'Brian is supposed to handle this rather well in his first Aubrey book - you might want to take a look at his opening chapters.
-Barbara
 

Willowmound

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Good rule of thumb: don't give information until it's needed.

Contradictory rule of thumb: be sure to show the gun before it's fired (Chekov's Principle)

Usual advice: drip bits of information here and there throughout the story.
 

Willowmound

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Patrick O'Brian is supposed to handle this rather well in his first Aubrey book - you might want to take a look at his opening chapters.
-Barbara


I just read that one (Master and Commander) and thought he was rather heavy handed. And there was a lot of nautical jargon explained that the reader really didn't need to know.

I liked it, and will probably read the next one, but I wouldn't go here for tips on how to handle the OP's problem.
 

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Good rule of thumb: don't give information until it's needed.

Contradictory rule of thumb: be sure to show the gun before it's fired (Chekov's Principle)

Usual advice: drip bits of information here and there throughout the story.

Ditto.

Fanatics love all the jargon. The rest of us just want a good yarn. If you bludgeon us with your expertise, most of us will either scan the page or close the book.

And that Chekhov thing about the gun goes more like, if you show us a gun in the first act, someone jolly well better use it before the play is over. Which, now I think more about it, is a really good test of what to include.
 

pdr

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Think about...

how much information the reader actually needs in that first chapter.

No, not what you fancy giving them. Not what you think they ought to know, Not what you love writing about.

How much information do the readers need to understand what is happening?

If you can do a bare bones edit of your chapter using that rule of thumb, then let a good reader aged 12 or 13 read the chapter, you will soon hear what you have to put back.

I'm smiling nicely at you here, Doogs, when I say this: From what I've been reading of yours you need to cut back drastically on the abstruse details you love. Be savage and do it!
 

job

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This section introduces the various unit types of the Roman army, describing their armor and weaponry, their ages, the classes of society from which they are drawn, etc. Yes, it is every bit as dry and "expositiony" as it sounds. Unfortunately, it is also critical to understanding the later battles..


One way to handle this would be to add all the stuff to Chapter One that you want.
Just put everything in. Kitchen sink. Porsche. fishing tackle.
Then forge onward.

You will eventually write those battle scenes.
A lot of information is just going to just fall into place in the narrative, like raisins into raisin bread, once you actually write the scenes.

Then,
when you've finisihed your battle scenes,
go back and reconsider what has to be in Chapter One.
At that point, you'll know what backstory you need to add there.


I should
(cough)
just mentiion that there is a writerly vice
called "I have done my homework and now you are going to suffer for it."

The temptation to share our nifty knowledge is great.
We must fight this.


... gradually expanding my MC's POV, ... awareness to encompass a broader "view" of the world around him/her? .

It seems very natural that a man who will command armies would be interested in the politics of his time.
 

Doogs

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job - I should clarify. I've already written the book, written all the battles, and now I'm going back and revising. I'm not happy with the way the various classes of soldiers are introduced in Chapter I (the army marches, the soldiers are described, lots of exposition). It feels forced and it interrupts what should be a very fast and tense narrative.

There is a point, about a third of the way through the book, when the MC is elected tribune and placed in command of approx. 600 men. To this point he has served in the cavalry, and interaction with the infantry has been from a distance.

At this point, I feel I have one of two options:

  1. Shift the description to his election as tribune, when he is reviewing his men for the first time.
  2. Keep it in Chapter I, but revise it so it does not suck.

I prefer the first option...but these divisions of soldiers are the kind of a thing a Roman of the time would have known since boyhood...and I'm not sure if it would jar the reader more to hold off for so long. Thus the "expanding POV" idea. Not that my MC isn't aware of broader events - quite the opposite, in fact - but rather that his immediate awareness expands with his responsibility. So in, say, the first battle, the focus is on the cavalry action. The MC and thus the reader have a general idea of what the infantry is doing, but the mentions are vague as his immediate responsibility is to his cavalry squadron, not what the rest of the army is doing.

Hope that make some sense...
 

job

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Have you clarified in your own mind, your reasons for sharing the minutia with the reader?
This will help you know where to put your chunks of information.

If the information is necessary to the understanding of your battle scenes, I'd put the information NEAR the battle scenes, because the reader will have forgotten all of it in about a thousand words.

If the specific information is not necessary to understanding the battle scenes,
but is more 'background',
then you can put it in anywhere.


Maybe you could use the solid chunks of background stuff for pacing.

What I mean ..
When you've had something active and exciting happen
(Marcus falls out of a chariot. Avernus is stabbed by a Gaul.)
You do it and get the reader all involved.

THEN you cut away to your explanation of troop recruiting.

That lets folks incorporate Marcus' new limp and Avernus' funeral
while they're skimming over the makeup of the Fourth Valerian or whatever.
 
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BardSkye

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Okay, possibly dumb question here, but I'm coming at this from your average reader in a bookstore point of view.

Why do we need to have this knowledge? If I pick up a book set in today's Middle East and featuring a soldier commanding a platoon and one commanding a brigade, all I know about it is that one's bigger than the other. And I don't really care which one. I probably won't be able to keep the Roman names and types of command straight either, no matter how many pages you spend on it. I'll be interested in the main characters and what they're doing.

Does that make sense?
 

lkp

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BardSkye, I'd feel exactly the same way. Maybe this is information, Doogs, you needed to know to write the book, but you don't need to tell your reader.
 

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It makes perfect sense, BardSkye, which (apart from the forced nature) is one of the reasons I'm considering shifting it out of Chapter I.

But it is necessary information, critical to understanding how the MC fights his way free in the climactic battle. And it's a lot easier to manage the geography of the scene. To wit:

"The last rank of the hastati pulled back. The principes rushed forward, taking their place."

"The last rank of the men of the first rank pulled back. The men of the second rank rushed forward..."
 

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I think you may be overestimating the importance, though. If there are marked differences in the two ranks, could it be dealt with in the battles themselves?

"The last rank of the archers pulled back. The men carrying the deadly flamethrowers rushed forward..."

Why is it necessary for the reader to know that only men with blond hair who come from the northern regions can be archers or that the flamethrowers ranks are filled with only the first sons of influential houses, (as a silly example)? Your MC might know it but how does their background affect the battle itself? And will the average reader remember which is hastati and which is principes without you reminding them that the hastati carry bows? They'll remember that only the archers survive and will probably translate the Roman term to something more familiar as they're reading anyway.

If it is crucial to know that the archers are all blond, I'd go with a very brief mention in chapter one, then an equally brief reminder just before the battle itself. If you present me with pages of exposition about the differing weapons and the politics that led up to all the archers being blond, I'm going to put the book back on the shelf and pick up a book that gives me more yarn, less knitting needle.
 

wee

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  1. Shift the description to his election as tribune, when he is reviewing his men for the first time.



Yes, yes, please. I don't remember these sorts of details 10 chapters later when I'm reading.

And another person brought up the point of "why does the reader need to know that all archers had to be blond" ...

I love this sort of historical mini-fact. I can whip it out in dinner conversation 5 years later & impress people, lol. But not in long description. Fit into the narrative somehow so that it flows, and you pick it up without thinking about it.

Even the historic epics that I love, love, love -- sometimes they go into exposition and my eyes cross, and I end up skimming until I see a character name**. Sometimes at the expense of completely understanding what is going on. And I have a really good attention span & love little historical facts, too!

Don't give it till we need it, and fit it into narrative. Also, you might try cutting stuff but keeping the old, wordy version. Have someone read it who isn't familiar with this era of history & ask them to mark anywhere they get confused...


wee

**p.s. -- I always skip the prologue, which is usually exposition. Maybe that would be a good place for it, for the hardcore buffs.
 

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wee - that's my thinking exactly. By shifting to later in the book, I can work the details into the narrative in a much more natural way.
 

frimble3

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From a reader's perspective, it might be more useful to have less who-gets-to-be-an-archer detail, and more what and why. Are the troops pulling back on their commander's orders as part of a strategy, or are they pulling back out of fear, one step from a panicked rout? Are the other troops moving forward on orders, launch a new strike, or have they seen a dangerous gap and are covering for the troops-pulling-back? Are the archers out of arrows or out of courage?
 

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frimble3 - there's very little of the "who gets to be a who" anywhere, even in the bloated mess that's currently taking up Chapter I. The basic grounds I cover...

Broad demographics (too young or poor to afford proper armor, etc). The Roman army at the time divided its men on the basis of age and wealth. I don't go deep into it at all, but it is important to the story to recognize that the triarii, say, are the older, steadier soldiers in the legion.

Arms and Armor. What they carry and what they wear, again in broad terms. No treatises on swordmaking here. A few adjectives, maybe. To use the archer example, akin to mentioning that they carry longbows with a draw powerful enough to drive an arrow through plate steel at one hundred paces. Because, if they are facing cavalry, that sort of thing is good to know.

Basic numbers / organization. Numbers, basic units, place in battle line.

All of this comes into play, especially in the climactic battle, when the MC has to manage his "line changes" to break his way out of Hannibal's trap.
 
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job

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I can't say, 'Don't put all this information in,' because I see plenty of books where such information has been added and they work really well.

I'd offer a pair of caveats though.

-- If you have a factoid that really matters, do not bury it in a mass of detail. Most of your readers are going to skip all your carefully constructed paragraphs about archers. They aren't going to read them.
In fact, if you have a detail that's important, introduce it twice before you use it.

-- Engage the reader thoroughly before you lay out any of this plate steel and fletching. If the reader cares about the characters and is confronted with longbow rankages ... he'll skip over it and forge ahead.
If he's not engaged , he'll lay the book down gently and find something that does engage him.
 
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frimble3

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It may all come into play, but does the reader absolutely need to know it? What is it we need to understand about the later battles? What the POV characters did? Explain it then, or trickle it in as part of character developement. Who won? Do we need to know exactly step-by-step how it happened? If there is a series of battles, that sounds like more than enough time to introduce necessary info. Is the books about the battles, like Bernard Cornwell's 'Sharpe' books, or are the battles just there because they were in the character's lives, Colleen McCullough's 'Caesar' books? Different needs, different levels of info, but I'd thin out that first chapter, by the sounds of it.
 

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It may all come into play, but does the reader absolutely need to know it?

I think without it, a number of readers would be confused, and those familiar with the period would be up in arms.

What is it we need to understand about the later battles? What the POV characters did? Explain it then, or trickle it in as part of character developement.

What the POV characters did...and how they did it...and the how is a lot easier with a basic idea of what he has to work with.

Then there's the idea of color and detail. I hate it when authors give me too much information (I need to go back and count how many pages it took Colleen McCullough to go over how to properly put on and arrange a toga), but, when the central conflict of a story is war, and the MCs spend much of their time on campaign (if not in battle), it helps to have a vague sense of the soldiers they're around.

Who won? Do we need to know exactly step-by-step how it happened?

The Romans lose, and lose bad. And I don't want to just tell the reader, I want to show them how, why. It may not be exactly step-by-step, but it is definitely from an on-the-ground perspective.

Is the books about the battles...or are the battles just there because they were in the character's lives...

I wouldn't say the book is about the battles...but the characters and their attitudes, their political standing, alliances and rivalries, are all seriously impacted by the battles and the events in and surrounding them. But the battles do feature more prominently than they do in McCullough's books.

but I'd thin out that first chapter, by the sounds of it.

Yep, I'm getting pretty much unanimous agreement on that one.

Just to make it clear...I don't mean to take the whole and just dump it later in the book. By the time the various classes would be introduced, the reader will already have a vague sense of how a typical legionnaire is armed, etc.

And I intend to make casual references to the various soldier classes from that point forward, keeping them in play.

What I don't want to do is spring this on the reader two pages before it becomes absolutely necessary to the story. I want to seed it in well before, so they don't get to page three hundred something and go, WTF, where'd those guys come from?
 

Puma

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Doogs - My suggestion: Pull all of your details and minutiae out of your manuscript and put it into a reader's notes or indexed terms section for the back of the book. That way, reader's who want to know the details and want to know the meaning of Latin terms have the expanations available - and, the readers who don't want or need all the explanation (and may be slowed down by it) won't be burdened by it. All you have to have is a little note at the front of the book to let readers know the material is available. It's interesting information to you, you're captivated by it, but you have to realize there are some readers who are going to look at a word like "hastati" and come up with their own images of what the word means from little clues in your text regardless of whether you spell out the exact meaning or not.

After you've pulled all the details out (and shortened your manuscript substantially), have a beta reader let you know whether there are places where more detail is needed for understanding of the story - the story, not the make-up of the Roman army.

And, just to let you know, I'm very sympathetic because I've been through the same issue in my science based manuscript - I had way too much detail for the reader (but I sure loved it). Puma
 

BardSkye

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In many ways historical fiction writers have the same worldbuilding problems as science fiction or fantasy writers. Even though we don't have to describe every little detail -- horses versus made-up beasts of burden, for example -- there's still enough difference in our characters' worlds from our own that we need to introduce the reader to an almost alien mindset. Minutae is the only way to do it but it's so difficult to figure out exactly what tiny details will make the difference and how much is necessary to hit that sweet spot between understanding and overload.

And like Puma, I had the same problem in a novel set in modern day, but an area unfamiliar to many readers. I spent lots of time on the minutia of being a hockey referee on the ice because it interested me, but it slowed the story down with unnecessary detail.
 

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I have often thought that historical fiction and SF/F are closely allied genres.
 

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As Red Storm Rising clearly demonstrates, if the story is well written, the jargon can be digested. It may be more effective, however, to distributed the data incidental to strong introduction of your characters. After all, in Master and Commander O'Brien has Maturin and Aubrey on the verge of killing each other within the first few chapters also.
 

Ned George

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I just read that one (Master and Commander) and thought he was rather heavy handed. And there was a lot of nautical jargon explained that the reader really didn't need to know.

I liked it, and will probably read the next one, but I wouldn't go here for tips on how to handle the OP's problem.


I haven't read this entire thread, so pardon me if I'm monotonous.

If you do...if you do read further, I wish you all the joy I had in reading these novels. I agree, the first one was a hard slog. I started it several times and put it aside as rubbish. Then, after several years, I tried again. Now I'm a rabid fan, partly because his characters, time period and my main interest is in everything he writes. I do despise his treatment of several historical figures, but otherwise, he's a master at 17th century language quirks. First, you'll notice the lack of "ly" words. The adverbs are there, but without the "ly." Once you get used to it, it sounds almost normal, just as it sounds normal to hear a man call his daughters "swabs" and to hear his surgeon accuse him of debauching his sloth.

A word of warning: too much O'Brien can cause anachronisms in the reader. If you read them all too fast or too close together, you'll start talking a bit funny. Read them twice, and you'll think everyone else talks wrong.
 
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