I have been pondering a story where a writer's work gets used against them in court. I dismissed this, thinking, "It won't happen." But I guess it can with poetry.
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pixie juice
awww... poor kid.
that's ridiculous, do you know how many poems I wrote when I was fifteen, killing every ex-boyfriend I ever had???
I never actually killed any of them though.
You should write that story - I think it's well within the realms of believability.
that's ridiculous, do you know how many poems I wrote when I was fifteen, killing every ex-boyfriend I ever had???
I never actually killed any of them though.
You should write that story - I think it's well within the realms of believability.
mammamaia
the saddest thing about that story is that it should be necessary to take such writings seriously... if parents, teachers, and fellow students had seen the writings of all the kids who've killed their teachers and schoolmates in recent years, and taken them that seriously, some or most of those killers and their victims would be alive today...:cry
Greenwolf103
Arisa81
The kids who killed other kids and themselves had completely different intentions with what they wrote and thought.
This kid was expressing feelings in a difficult time and I think we can safely assume had no intention of hurting anyone. Writing is a way of venting. We should be allowed that, not denied it because of a few bad kids.
Should we all go and throw away all our diaries with questionable thoughts inside? Of course not.
This was one poem after a breakup, not an ongoing problem coupled with isolation, acting out and so on.
April :star
This kid was expressing feelings in a difficult time and I think we can safely assume had no intention of hurting anyone. Writing is a way of venting. We should be allowed that, not denied it because of a few bad kids.
Should we all go and throw away all our diaries with questionable thoughts inside? Of course not.
This was one poem after a breakup, not an ongoing problem coupled with isolation, acting out and so on.
April :star
emeraldcite
minority report
this is the same issue that is deal with in minority report. The question is: what is the difference between expression and intent? Can we preemptively arrest or assume guilt of someone who writes on a certain issue?
Unless the writer has done some criminal act, then he or she cannot be arrested; otherwise, we'd all be in prison for acts of written expression. At what point do we arrest for thought?
For example, I recall a story about a man who wrote pedophilia stories in his diary. He was tried based on this material, which he never shared and was his private fantasy. Is this fair? Unless he committed a crime based on these acts, is he guilty? I find what he did horrible, but is it against the law to journal? Is that not safe? Or is journaling only allowed for those who write "legal" things. Frightening thought.
the saddest thing about that story is that it should be necessary to take such writings seriously... if parents, teachers, and fellow students had seen the writings of all the kids who've killed their teachers and schoolmates in recent years, and taken them that seriously, some or most of those killers and their victims would be alive today...
this is the same issue that is deal with in minority report. The question is: what is the difference between expression and intent? Can we preemptively arrest or assume guilt of someone who writes on a certain issue?
Unless the writer has done some criminal act, then he or she cannot be arrested; otherwise, we'd all be in prison for acts of written expression. At what point do we arrest for thought?
For example, I recall a story about a man who wrote pedophilia stories in his diary. He was tried based on this material, which he never shared and was his private fantasy. Is this fair? Unless he committed a crime based on these acts, is he guilty? I find what he did horrible, but is it against the law to journal? Is that not safe? Or is journaling only allowed for those who write "legal" things. Frightening thought.
veingloree
Re: minority report
There are two sides to that news story, as far as I can tell that version is less than accurate.
There are two sides to that news story, as far as I can tell that version is less than accurate.
Jamesaritchie
poem
I don't think such a poem warrants time in a juvenile hall, but such poetry had better be taken seriously. Poor boy, yes, because he obviously has some serious problems, and definitely needs help.
I don't think such a poem warrants time in a juvenile hall, but such poetry had better be taken seriously. Poor boy, yes, because he obviously has some serious problems, and definitely needs help.
poppyhullings
Re: poem
I think you should research this more. This coin definitely has two sides.
Should the boy have been expelled and sent to juvenile hall based on his expression or the school's/court's perception of it? It is hard to determine from ink on paper if he was 'just venting' or being serious. However, if the school officials and legal system perceived it as a threat, then I guess there's no discounting that either.
As a poet, I'm all for being able to express how you really feel. However, as a mother, I must admit that if a boy were to write a poem about killing my daughter, I'd be very concerned and would want the matter checked out. I'm not saying I would want him sent straight to jail, just thoroughly questioned.
Okay, I'm kind of rambling, but did want to make the point that I can see two sides to this story and can't really decide which side I'm on...I'm teetering in the middle, I guess. It's a tough call. :shrug
And again, I think it would be a good topic to research and write about.
I think you should research this more. This coin definitely has two sides.
Should the boy have been expelled and sent to juvenile hall based on his expression or the school's/court's perception of it? It is hard to determine from ink on paper if he was 'just venting' or being serious. However, if the school officials and legal system perceived it as a threat, then I guess there's no discounting that either.
As a poet, I'm all for being able to express how you really feel. However, as a mother, I must admit that if a boy were to write a poem about killing my daughter, I'd be very concerned and would want the matter checked out. I'm not saying I would want him sent straight to jail, just thoroughly questioned.
Okay, I'm kind of rambling, but did want to make the point that I can see two sides to this story and can't really decide which side I'm on...I'm teetering in the middle, I guess. It's a tough call. :shrug
And again, I think it would be a good topic to research and write about.
mammamaia
Re: poem
i think some of you are misunderstanding what james and i seem to agree on... 'taking seriously' to me, does not mean arrest, and all those other things i see mentioned up there... it means that the people responsible for these kids should 'pay attention' to what they're writing and see what can be done to help them not need to write that kind of stuff...
i think some of you are misunderstanding what james and i seem to agree on... 'taking seriously' to me, does not mean arrest, and all those other things i see mentioned up there... it means that the people responsible for these kids should 'pay attention' to what they're writing and see what can be done to help them not need to write that kind of stuff...
Greenwolf103
Re: poem
Yes, true. BUT we cannot do everything. Neither can the parents. We can try to help the kids but it is ultimately up to a kid to change themself. But even still, we can't blame a parent if a kid goes bad. Stuff happens. Stuff we can't control.
Yes, true. BUT we cannot do everything. Neither can the parents. We can try to help the kids but it is ultimately up to a kid to change themself. But even still, we can't blame a parent if a kid goes bad. Stuff happens. Stuff we can't control.
Yeshanu
Re: poem
Back to the original question.
Granted, I'm in Canada, but a friend of mine was involved in a lawsuit, and I learned to my horror that the prosecuting attorney could requisition her private diaries and use them as evidence, if he thought they were relevant.
Yes, your writing can be used against you. In the pedophile case, apart from the fact that he was in posession of something which is definitely classed as illegal porn (in Canada, at least) and could have been arrested for that alone (sharing it with others has nothing to do with the charge), if he were to be involved in a case where he was actually had committed a crime against a minor, the writing almost certainly would be used by the prosecution.
There have been challenges to rulings on the basis of "artistic merit," but so far, I think, Canadian courts have ruled rather conservatively in the matter.
If I were thinking of doing such a story (and I do think it's a good story idea), I might pay an expert for an hour of her time in order to get the legalities straight.
Ruth
Back to the original question.
Granted, I'm in Canada, but a friend of mine was involved in a lawsuit, and I learned to my horror that the prosecuting attorney could requisition her private diaries and use them as evidence, if he thought they were relevant.
Yes, your writing can be used against you. In the pedophile case, apart from the fact that he was in posession of something which is definitely classed as illegal porn (in Canada, at least) and could have been arrested for that alone (sharing it with others has nothing to do with the charge), if he were to be involved in a case where he was actually had committed a crime against a minor, the writing almost certainly would be used by the prosecution.
There have been challenges to rulings on the basis of "artistic merit," but so far, I think, Canadian courts have ruled rather conservatively in the matter.
If I were thinking of doing such a story (and I do think it's a good story idea), I might pay an expert for an hour of her time in order to get the legalities straight.
Ruth
MissKathyClarke
Greenwolf103
Re: poem
Yes, your journals can be used against you in court. They're also used to back up a claim, such as if someone said "he loaned me $300 and said it was for the car" and you put that into your diary, a judge can read this and use it as part of evidence. At least, that's one instance I have seen. When searching a home, police often look for journals/diaries. I recently watched Seven again; they read that guy's journals and talked about how crazy in the head he must be.
Kind of makes you wonder if writing a poem can be equated with writing a journal entry. Poetry is classified as fiction yet it's also a venue for people to express themselves.
Still, Emily Dickinson wrote poems about homosexuality yet we don't have proof that she was a lesbian. At least, none that I have yet seen.
Yes, your journals can be used against you in court. They're also used to back up a claim, such as if someone said "he loaned me $300 and said it was for the car" and you put that into your diary, a judge can read this and use it as part of evidence. At least, that's one instance I have seen. When searching a home, police often look for journals/diaries. I recently watched Seven again; they read that guy's journals and talked about how crazy in the head he must be.
Kind of makes you wonder if writing a poem can be equated with writing a journal entry. Poetry is classified as fiction yet it's also a venue for people to express themselves.
Still, Emily Dickinson wrote poems about homosexuality yet we don't have proof that she was a lesbian. At least, none that I have yet seen.
Yeshanu
Still, Emily Dickinson wrote poems about homosexuality yet we don't have proof that she was a lesbian. At least, none that I have yet seen.
Lots of gay and lesbian writers write about heterosexual love... (especially songwriters).
Your writing won't prove anything to a judge. It's just evidence to back up a position, for example in lawsuits like those mentioned above, or the case of someone being charged with abusing a minor...
In Emily Dickenson's case, for example, the writing is only one aspect of her life. We would have to look at her life in total to come up with any informed conclusion about her love life or lack of it...
Ruth
Katwriter
poetry or threat
This is definitely a controversial issue. I do not believe that anyone should be persecuted for written thought but with the things that are going on today with our youth, I do believe that the content of the poem needs to be taken seriously.
You never know what is going through anyones mind or what their true intentions are. The boy is obviously troubled in some sort. Maybe he's just expressing himself through poetry or maybe he was really having thoughts of doing such a thing.
Ya never know. I don't believe that the authorities should have gone to the extent that they did but I do believe that some sort of preventative action should been done.
Kathleen
This is definitely a controversial issue. I do not believe that anyone should be persecuted for written thought but with the things that are going on today with our youth, I do believe that the content of the poem needs to be taken seriously.
You never know what is going through anyones mind or what their true intentions are. The boy is obviously troubled in some sort. Maybe he's just expressing himself through poetry or maybe he was really having thoughts of doing such a thing.
Ya never know. I don't believe that the authorities should have gone to the extent that they did but I do believe that some sort of preventative action should been done.
Kathleen
LiamJackson
Re: poetry or threat
That's the problem....defining "some sort of..." The laws are often restrictive and/or ill-defined.
"...some sort of preventative action should been done."
That's the problem....defining "some sort of..." The laws are often restrictive and/or ill-defined.