POD - misunderstood?

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lisanevin

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Reading more and more on the POD thread I'm getting the impression that people associate POD to self publish.
POD is the technique, self publishing can employee POD and/or a publisher can employee POD technologies.
Recently I was rejected for a review because my publisher was POD. After looking over this forum I think they thought I was self published.

There are publishers out there that employee POD technologies AND offer contracts! As I have never worked with the a 'traditional publisher' I can't attest to the difference.
I know an author who had a book published with Viking said to me (and I was suprised she shared this, so I haven't included her name: " . . . was a tedious and long process. . . . From the final draft to the first publishing was almost three years. There was a ton of hurry up and wait - I found it infuriating - and kind of rude. . . . I didn't like the way they believed we "lesser-known" authors should be grateful just for the chance to be published by them."

I also have a friend whose mother is good friend with the mother of a well known writer who has published several books and had a movie deal. Even this woman complained how publishers are passing more of the effort onto the writer!

In summary, I'm not so sure the smaller publishers are really that much different!
 

Dave.C.Robinson

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The real question is does your publisher have access to a sales force that markets books to bookstores? Commercial publishers do. Publishers' customers are bookstores and distributors; not readers and not authors. Commercial publishers publish books for you to buy from somebody else.

If they don't have distribution you don't want to go with them. Vanity POD houses sell to the author, some small POD houses try to sell to the reader but don't have distribution.

The publisher you want is the one you can find on bookstore shelves.
 

veinglory

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POD has come to mean self-published in casual use. So it might pay to specific POD third party published, or POD small press--whatever is the case--to avoid misunderstandings.
 

LloydBrown

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The issue is that if a publisher prints your book via POD, they obviously don't plan to sell many copies. If you're going to sell 1,000 or more copies, an offset print run is cheaper. If you're not...why bother?
 

veinglory

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If a writer wants to bother with POD that would be their own choice. I use it as a suppliment to my primary ebook sales and because I like to have a few copies around. You can't just say 'no one would/should bother'--that's the author's choice.
 

lisanevin

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You can't just say 'no one would/should bother'--that's the author's choice.

I like your attitude and willing to defend the choices others make.

On the same token, sure he (or she) can say that! Their opinion. Just as it is our choice of what we wish to do (or say) It's sad that anyone has the 'don't bother' approach as they won't get very far in life.
I did post to this forum and realize I'll hear other opinions and I appreciate people taking the time to read AND respond!
 

Stijn Hommes

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Reading more and more on the POD thread I'm getting the impression that people associate POD to self publish.
POD is the technique, self publishing can employee POD and/or a publisher can employee POD technologies.
Recently I was rejected for a review because my publisher was POD. After looking over this forum I think they thought I was self published. Dave, please don't use the phrase "Vanity POD houses". That is exactly the kind of thing that causes the mixup. There are also vanity publishers who do print runs instead of using POD. They're just as bad - perhaps even more so because they are more determined to get rid of their stock, a stock POD publishers don't have.

There are publishers out there that employee POD technologies AND offer contracts!
That's completely true and you deserve some rep points for that.
 

LloydBrown

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It's sad that anyone has the 'don't bother' approach as they won't get very far in life

What? That's not a reasonable conclusion at all. My first book sold its 10,000 book print run in 6 days and has stayed in print for 6 years and counting. My business sold for enough money to allow me to write for 2 years and counting. My only marriage is at 11 years and counting. My mortgage is being paid. There's nothing at which I've failed. I'm saying don't bother with something that is predetermined to have limited chance of success and limited degree of success in the first place.

Even if you sell 20,000 copies via POD (and how many books do that?), you'd have made several times as much money if you had done an offset print run. There's no point--high or low volume--at which you really succeed.

If you really want to POD a book, go right ahead. I'm sure it'll give you warm fuzzy feelings in your tummy. It's not likely to help your writing career, earn you any measurable amounts of money, or reach many readers. It is great at the warm fuzzies, though. Let me know how that works out for you in a year or so.
 

lisanevin

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What? That's not a reasonable conclusion at all.

Congratulations! It sounds like you did 'bother'.
If someone continues to make an effort then they move forward. If they have a 'don't bother' approach, how can they move forward?
Also note, my comment, about 'getting anywhere in life' is more general.
If one doesn't ever bother because they think 'what's the point' they'll never really know if there is one. How will they learn? How will they grow?
 

LloydBrown

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If one doesn't ever bother because they think 'what's the point' they'll never really know if there is one

Unless they're capable of reading and research. I don't have to publish a book with a POD publisher to know that the average POD sales are fewer than 100 copies. I don't have to "bother" with POD to know that you don't get national bookstore presence. I can ask other people who have done it and ask people who have experience with other publishing models what the other options are.

There's a huge difference between someone with a "don't bother" attitude because they don't think they're good enough, and someone who has considered all of the pros and cons of multiple options and decided that one doens't fit their needs.

Look at it this way: I need a car because mine broke down. One ad lists a Mercedes coupe, one is a new hybrid, and the last is a '81 Chevette with no AC and 450,000 miles on it. If I "don't bother" with the Chevette, it doesn't mean that I'm giving up on driving. "Making an effort" with the Chevette won't get me far because the vehicle simply won't travel far. No amount of positive thinking will make that Chevette better than the other two cars.

What can POD do for you? It's a suitable vehicle for niche markets like specialized non-fiction, local interest topics, and other topics too small to interest a commercial publisher. It is not designed to make money; it's designed to minimize loss. Just like the Chevette might be fine if you just want a car for your teenage son to learn to drive on.

If you want to reach a wide number of readers, POD isn't likely to take you there. If you're trying to earn a living as a writer, POD isn't likely to take you there. If you want a writing credit with which to impress the next publisher to whom you send a proposal, ditto.

Let me ask you this: why is this publishing option better for you than a mainstream commercial publisher like Random House, who states that their minimum advance is $7,000? (see this link from New York Magazine http://nymag.com/news/features/2007/profit/32906/) Tell me why you think it's better.
 

lisanevin

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Let me ask you this: why is this publishing option better for you than a mainstream commercial publisher like Random House, who states that their minimum advance is $7,000? (see this link from New York Magazine http://nymag.com/news/features/2007/profit/32906/) Tell me why you think it's better.

Better? Oh no! I never meant to imply that POD publishing contract was better!
If Random House had taken my book, I would have jumped at it!
 
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lisanevin

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My first book sold its 10,000 book print run in 6 days and has stayed in print for 6 years and counting.
What is the name of you book?
Who published it?
Congrats on 6 years in print and counting!
I went quickly to your website but didn't see the title of your book jump out on the home page.
 

veinglory

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It's a reasonable conclusion for your goals. As a general 'truth' its an over-generalisation. POD is working fine for me so far--working out exactly as I expected and adding value (and income) to my ebooks. I am sure it have others uses too.
 

PVish

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What can POD do for you? It's a suitable vehicle for niche markets like specialized non-fiction, local interest topics, and other topics too small to interest a commercial publisher. It is not designed to make money; it's designed to minimize loss.

Exactly! Add one other criteria: You must already have a readership in place. If you already write for a local/regional publication, you've proven your ability to write and developed a readership who might be interested in buying your work. Independent stores (in my case, gift shops) will order your books.

It helps if you are a speaker/presenter. When I am paid to do presentations or speak, I have my books available should anyone want one.

POD worked for me for some collections of stories and columns. I'd already been paid for the original material and my rights had reverted to me. I didn't lose money, and actually made a bit. (My "best seller" recently topped 500--not great, but for a very limited niche market, not bad.)

POD doesn't work well for novels. If you are an unknown writer of fiction, POD isn't what you are looking for.
 
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veinglory

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In a way POD is in fact designed to make money far more than offset as there is no investment to lose. The gains are likely to be less but the losses are almost certain to be nil, so it is rather hard to not make some money and rather difficult to make a lot.
 

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In a way POD is in fact designed to make money far more than offset as there is no investment to lose.

Hence my comment about less risk. Don't confuse gross income with net profits. They go in different places on the spreadsheet for a reason.

The rest of your post was fiscally accurate.
 

lisanevin

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So how do other POD publishers 'sell' books? Do other authors find that the only way to get them in stores is to buy copies and hand deliver them to the stores?

Sounds like the promises my publisher provided about advertising and contacting reviewers might not really happen?
 

LloydBrown

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Unlimited Publishing isn't even on Preditors & Editors, and the only links I can find here (which you apparently already found) don't offer much except that they no longer seem to charge up-front fees.

I found a few titles on Amazon, but the best rating was in the 100-something thousands. Most were between 780,000 and 2,000,000, which means single-digit sales. So they have one title that's selling 1 a week or so, and the others are selling a couple of times a year. That's not promising.

No, Amazon isn't your only source of sales, but it's a reflection of what it's selling in the rest of the world. If your book is selling from bookshelves, you'll have Amazon sales, too, as people who see it on the shelf want to come home and check reviews online or whatever before they buy it--online.

So how do other POD publishers 'sell' books?
The best of them have a sales force that sends out review copies to the major sources. They solicit bookstores. They price their discounts competitively. They make their books returnable. The worst of them make a big show out of releasing the books and hope the authors buy enough copies to pay the bills.

Also, I'd be suspicious about any claims of advertising. Advertising books to the public is not cost-effective. Their website doesn't mention advertising that I could see, though.
 
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LloydBrown

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Before I took a contract with Unlimited Publishing I looked on predators and editors and didn't find them, so I was relieved.

P&E lists good publishers, too, but they can only list publishers they've heard about. The host, Dave Kuzminski, is a regular here.

UP hasn't released my book to major distribution yet, they said it has to have a few months soak time with their printer.

Soak time? What the hell is that supposed to mean? That's no publishing term I've ever heard of. Are they claiming that they need a few months' lead time for their Print-on-Demand printer? That's taking some liberties with the "on demand" part of the equation, isn't it?
 

veinglory

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I suggest you ask about UP in the bewares forum. They sound a little underwhelming to me if they are using Lulu. A third party publisher should bring more to the table than a public access service.
 

veinglory

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There is not thread on them in Bewares & Background Check. People there could likely tell you whether this press has any ability to provide major distribution. My instinct is that if they did Lulu would simply not be on the menu. It's a very expensive way to produce a book--even with basic skills you could go straight to Lightning Source and do better.
 

Mac H.

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I think Lulu is UP's way to see if an authors book will generate any business and whether it's worth their while to pay for major distribution.
As I understand, getting a book in major distribution cost alot.
It sounds like a great company, but this bit doesn't seem to make sense.

POD simply isn't compatible with major distribution. POD means that the book isn't printed until there is a guaranteed sale. Major distribution means printing thousands and thousands of copies and sending them to bookstores etc - and if they don't sell simply taking them back.

It's not that one is definitely better than the other in all cases - but simply that it doesn't make sense for a company that is proud to be POD to be talking about major distribution.

Good luck - I hope things work out well.

Mac
(PS: Listing with Amazon/B&N Online isn't distribution - as you mentioned anyone can simply send a PDF file to Lulu to get that kind of exposure)
 

LloydBrown

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UP Does have major distribution ability. They have books at Amazon and Barnes and Noble.

Everything with an ISBN is on Amazon. They list it automatically. That means nothing. As for B&N, do they have presence IN Barnes and Noble bookstores worldwide, or do they have just the listing on the website? That, also, means nothing.

As I understand, getting a book in major distribution cost alot.
Er, it costs one book per book sold. You don't pay retailers money for them to sell your products. They pay the publisher. Besides--sell books is what publishers do. If it's too expensive for them to sell books, then what are they doing?
 

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Online listing alone is worthless. "Major distribution", as used by anyone who actually sells books, includes large-scale regional or national presence on bookstore shelves. I don't even need to know if your book is any good to tell you that a novel on Lulu isn't going to sell to strangers. Sure, you might sell a few dozen to friends and family members, but that's about it.

I'm afraid this book's pretty much seen all the action it's going to see. You're working on another one, I hope.
 

Dave.C.Robinson

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All publishers have some sort of sales force: aimed at their main source of income. In a major commercial publisher's case this sales force goes out to bookstore representatives with catalogs and pitches and works on getting them to buy and stock as many of a particular book as they can. A smaller publisher is more likely to rely on a distributor, but follows the same pattern. These are the people who get the book onto bookstore shelves; and regardless of what POD backers may say, national bookstore placement is vital for sales.

One reason it's so vital is because a large number of online orders come from people who either picked up the book, or picked up the first book in a store, and are either ordering it now, or ordering the sequels. A person may order nine of a ten book series from the internet, and only buy one of them in a store, but if they picked that one up on a whim, then liked it enough to order the sequels, all of those sales can be attributed to the book being placed on bookstore shelves. If it hadn't been on the shelf, the reader would never have known to order the next nine.

Online placement is fine for books people are already looking for, not so good for finding something new to read. I know Amazon recommendations seem to split about 50/50 between books I've already read and books I put down because I couldn't stand.

If you have anything other than a very specific audience, POD is probably not the best option for an author.
 
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