Beta readers and historicals

Experts.

This is tricky. You could spend a lifetime getting the experts to check everything in your novel. You have to trust your research and knowledge too.

I would always use a historian in my period as one of my Beta readers for every historical novel I wrote. I'd use some HNS reviewers who reviewed my time period as Betas too. I'd also need some general readers, history lovers tend to nit-pick!

If I were writing about the well known, the politically important or with new research on a well known topic I'd make darned sure I had the key expert at least approve a precis of what I'd written.

If I were including a well known major battle I'd also make sure I talked to the battle 'experts'.

Best thing you can ever do for your historicals is to 'have a go' at everything.
Spend time around horses.
Poke around any museum.
Go to craft fairs or take craft classes in making anything from: candles/quilts/clothes/weaving/spinning/knitting/crochet doesn't matter if it's not your time period. There are certain basics that apply to all time periods before electricity and cars and manufacturing. These are:
the getting, growing and storage of food,
providing light and water,
providing the material to weave and sew into clothes,
providing a warm dry shelter, and fuel for cooking and warmth.
Be it bronze age or 18thC these were the major preoccupations of people and took up most of their waking hours

It's the mind set that is so different form ours.
Have a go yourself cooking over a fire, making fire without a lighter, baking bread on a hearth stone. Try a day without electricity and use only one cold tap as the water source for the day!
Think about how to keep dry when it rains. How do you dry clothes during a wet week?
Try making your own cloth and then clothes!
It's having an understanding for all this which gives your historical the right feeling and makes it a realistic read. That's why you need genuine, book buying, readers as well as your expert. They are the ones to tell you if it 'reads right'.

I'm the expert

I'm curious about any experience you all have had in asking experts - say, university professors and the like - to read through your polished manuscript for accuracy. Are people usually willing to help? Can I entice someone with an offer of recognition in the book if it gets published? (Or would people even care about that, LOL?) I'm just wondering about the whole etiquette thing and how you find and ask your experts. Being in a completely unrelated profession and having done my undergraduate work in science and theology, I have no contacts who are in the area I'm currently writing. (Of course, that would be quite a while ago anyway, unfortunately. )

Thank you,

c.e.

pdr said:

If I were including a well known major battle I'd also make sure I talked to the battle 'experts'.

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I'm curious, but why?

Unless it were an eyewitness/primary source type of situation, what good would talking to an 'expert' do over doing your own research, reading and thoroughly understanding their articles/books/journals/etc?

I'm curious, but why?

Because there are always 'official views' on such battles, often several differing ones. It helps clarify what I think when I hear others' opinions.

Also I'm not a 'battle expert' and might well miss some obvious thing which the military historian's mind considers and I don't know enough to consider. Even with careful research I will still miss things in a battle. because it's not an area of interest which I have studied deeply for years.

Even on topics I feel confident I know something about I will always listen to 'experts' and enthusiasts because they will always teach me something new.

Hi c.e. - In answer to your question. One of my novels is science based fiction (I wouldn't call it sci-fi, though). I'm in central Ohio and bit the bullet and called the appropriate department at Ohio State University. Lo and behold, the secretary knew immediately who would be willing to (and like to) read my manuscript. So, it got reviewed by a PhD (who pronounced it very accurate.). If/when I find a publisher, I do plan to ask him to write the foreward. (And he knows it.) So it can be done. Puma

All you have to do...

is ask. Universities are good, as Puma says, and the top brass in organizations, retired top brass love to chat!

There's even an ask the expert website where you can find a few names of people who might help. I can't remember the url and I'm still bush in Canada, but someone here will know it.

Just ask.

pdr said:

Because there are always 'official views' on such battles, often several differing ones. It helps clarify what I think when I hear others' opinions.

Also I'm not a 'battle expert' and might well miss some obvious thing which the military historian's mind considers and I don't know enough to consider. Even with careful research I will still miss things in a battle. because it's not an area of interest which I have studied deeply for years.

Even on topics I feel confident I know something about I will always listen to 'experts' and enthusiasts because they will always teach me something new.

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This is rapidly approaching a threadjacking, so I'll do my best to be brief.

I agree with everything you've said above, but I derive the same clarity from reading as many texts as I can get my hands on, culling through, figuring out the points of agreement, working through the points of contention, understanding them, analyzing them myself, etc.

Perhaps it is because my mind is more wired to the visual than the auditory, or because there is less that can ever be known for certain in the period I'm playing in, so I have a bit more freedom to apply my own interpretation to the events in question.

To each their own, I suppose...and I do believe this would make a very interesting thread on research methods, interpreting the "gaps" and other such topics.

PastMidnight said:

For those of you that use beta readers, do you use some that are 'experts' in the time period that you are writing about or in another area that you touch on in your book (battles, location, a particular occupation, etc.)?

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to answer your initial question, PastMidnight, I haven't made use of any experts yet. I had a few trusted "alpha" readers go through the initial draft and offer feedback, but I want to get through the first revision draft before I widen the audience.

That's a good story, Puma. I hope I can find a secretary as "in the know" as the one you called. (Although I suppose secretaries are always in the know.) And why am I not surprised your story was already "very accurate"? It's obvious you do such careful research.

pdr - yes, all we can do is ask. You know it's funny - my husband and I were at a medical dinner lecture and the guest lecturer was a cardiologist who grew up in Greece. So of course my husband, who is not shy by any means, goes up to him after the lecture and tells him I'm writing a novel based in ancient Sparta. I'm standing there totally embarrassed, but the man was so nice about it. He whipped out his business card and wrote a name and e-mail on the back and told me he has "close friends" in the Greek embassy who would be happy to help me in any way. How's that for a lead? And I would have been WAY too shy to go up there and mention any of this to him on my own. And what might be a good opportunity would have been lost. Oh, and retired folk! That's a GREAT resource with some who have more time on their hands! Excellent idea!

And Doogs - start up that thread!

Thanks so much, everyone. I'm so happy I found this site.

c.e.

Ah, but...

Doog, a live expert is often much more up to date on the latest research than written sources.

Also, it's fun talking to people about their obsession/pet theme/great enthusiasm. You can run a whole lot of silly ideas past them and discuss what ifs and often I've gone away with an idea for a story which is way off the original query but a neat idea for a short story. People love to talk about their 'baby' and often will say things that they feel, but cannot write down because they lack the empirical evidence. Great stuff!

When I get my current project written & revised (Lord willing), I plan to ask ... (hiding face) ... my mother-in-law to be my first beta.

She has a master's degree in history, loves most of the same books I do, and has taken at least one master's level course on the area of history I'm writing about. It has been about 20 years since she took those courses, but she has a memory like an elephant & can still give you a discourse on most any historical subject you can come up with. I think it is important that she likes this type of book anyway. But she can point out both glaring historical inaccuracies and dull fiction, and telling me what I did wrong is one of her favorite pastimes.

If she likes it, then I know I'm on the right track. If she doesn't, maybe she is completely wrong, but I'll pay attention & closely consider her comments anyway.

Anything that can get past her I could send to an expert without fear of embarrassment.



wee

PastMidnight said:

For those of you that use beta readers, do you use some that are 'experts' in the time period that you are writing about or in another area that you touch on in your book (battles, location, a particular occupation, etc.)?

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Honestly, I don't bother finding experts for beta reading. By that time, the book is finished and I'm not interested in those kinds of details. I'm interested in finding out if the book as an entire experience is enjoyable and holds together.

If that kind of detail important to the story, I've done the research prior to the completion of the book, including talking to any experts. But if research negates the wow factor or the geek point, I'll always opt for a good story over accuracy. The vast majority of anyone who may read my books will know less than I do (and have less incentive to do the research--though if I inspire someone to research, all the better), so as long as the story's good, that's all I want out of my finished product.

(and I brace for the stone-throwing to begin. LOL!)

Argh!

Yes, Delaney, yours is a very American attitude. I meet it in the books I review, often historical romances or thrillers, published by American publishers. When I point out that the research is sloppy and accuracy has been sacrificed for the story I am told this is a 'good thing'!

Getting it right is to do with honesty and writer's integrity. A note to readers saying what was done and why is fine. But sneaking stuff past and thinking readers won't find out is, in the long run, a disaster for sales. Historical novel readers like history and they don't like being conned.

pdr said:

Yes, Delaney, yours is a very American attitude. I meet it in the books I review, often historical romances or thrillers, published by American publishers. When I point out that the research is sloppy and accuracy has been sacrificed for the story I am told this is a 'good thing'!

Getting it right is to do with honesty and writer's integrity. A note to readers saying what was done and why is fine. But sneaking stuff past and thinking readers won't find out is, in the long run, a disaster for sales. Historical novel readers like history and they don't like being conned.

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No offense taken, but it's "Deleyan" not "Delaney".

Yes, I'm an American writing for the American market. American readers are out for the entertainment value in fiction, not a history lesson. If you can get the history close to accurate and still provide them with good entertainment value, all the better. Personally, the challenge of Historical Fiction for me is to weave the fiction into the history and keep it both accurate and entertaining--just because the market WILL allow blatant changes to suit the story doesn't mean I have to be weak and always lean on the crutch.

Frankly, it's not a disaster to sales to be less-than-historically correct, not in the States. At least one NYT best-selling Historical Fiction author has some of the worst historical accuracy I've ever seen--totally getting the very culture horribly wrong--but I think it's what actually has helped the sales of those books because it gives them the culture the average readership expects, not what's accurate. And, yes, this galls me to no end since even the idiotic History Channel gets this culture right.

That being said, the question had more to do with process--do I use beta readers to vet historical accuracy? No, I don't. I do the research before and during the writing, and vet accuracy in the first revision. Beta readers don't see a book until it's through all my revisions and is as good as I can make it. The people I choose for betas are normal readers, which is the only kind of expertise I desire at that stage of the process.

It could be we're just discussing semantics, that you might use "beta reader" to me anyone who reads the book other than yourself, whereas I'm using it for a reader at a particular stage in the process. If that's the case, we're in agreement that it should be done.

pdr said:

Yes, Delaney, yours is a very American attitude. I meet it in the books I review, often historical romances or thrillers, published by American publishers. When I point out that the research is sloppy and accuracy has been sacrificed for the story I am told this is a 'good thing'!

Click to expand...

Why is it a "very American" attitude? I encounter plenty of sloppy and inaccurate research when I read. And it isn't all from American authors. You can throw British, Canadian, and Australian into the mix. And Italian, for that matter. Ever read any of Valerio Manfredi's books?

pdr said:

Best thing you can ever do for your historicals is to 'have a go' at everything.
Spend time around horses.
Poke around any museum.
Go to craft fairs or take craft classes in making anything from: candles/quilts/clothes/weaving/spinning/knitting/crochet doesn't matter if it's not your time period. There are certain basics that apply to all time periods before electricity and cars and manufacturing. These are:
the getting, growing and storage of food,
providing light and water,
providing the material to weave and sew into clothes,
providing a warm dry shelter, and fuel for cooking and warmth.
Be it bronze age or 18thC these were the major preoccupations of people and took up most of their waking hours

It's the mind set that is so different form ours.
Have a go yourself cooking over a fire, making fire without a lighter, baking bread on a hearth stone. Try a day without electricity and use only one cold tap as the water source for the day!
Think about how to keep dry when it rains. How do you dry clothes during a wet week?
Try making your own cloth and then clothes!
It's having an understanding for all this which gives your historical the right feeling and makes it a realistic read. That's why you need genuine, book buying, readers as well as your expert. They are the ones to tell you if it 'reads right'.

Click to expand...

Thats great advice, thanks...

PastMidnight said:

For those of you that use beta readers, do you use some that are 'experts' in the time period that you are writing about or in another area that you touch on in your book (battles, location, a particular occupation, etc.)?

Click to expand...

Not a chance, at least for me. I'm the one that should be the expert in the time period. That's the only way the period rings true. It's something that must be a consistent thread all the way through and can only be done by the author.
Linnea

ishtar'sgate said:

Not a chance, at least for me. I'm the one that should be the expert in the time period. That's the only way the period rings true. It's something that must be a consistent thread all the way through and can only be done by the author.
Linnea

Click to expand...

That's a very good point.

Despite my U.C. Berkeley degree in History, I side with story taking precedence over 100% accuracy in Historical fiction (if that is possible aside from dates and technical data) and agree one should include Author Note explaining what was altered and why.

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