What should be considered 'a classic'?

reigningcatsndogs · Aug 2, 2007

I am interested in knowing what you think should be a classic book. I homeschool my boys, and after trying to get them through The Great Gatsby and some Dickens, my older son posed the question, 'What exactly makes a book a classic?' I wasn't sure how to answer. (IMHO Shakespeare is a valuable tool because he makes use of every language tool available, many of his works can be relevant to current situations, and the boys really enjoy him. They see the irony and the humor, but I think a big part of that is because they don't get all the peripheral complaints about the use of Olde English.) Is it endurance, use of language, content, the social position of the writer at the time...? I am not sure I should be forcing my boys to read A Tale of Two Cities, because in all honesty -- I cheated on that test. I hated the book and did not read it. I did read Thomas Hardy's Tess of the D'Urbervilles but hated it as well.

So, now that they are in high school and I am still their reigning teacher and principal, what books should I be focusing on? What books should be considered classics and would be great teaching tools, and which ones should I perhaps avoid? The educational and social future of my children could depend upon this!!!!

Birol · Aug 2, 2007

To me, a classic which is something that has endured. That's not to say that something that's more recent can't also be read and studied.

The question I would ask, when creating a reading list, is

1) What do you want them to get out of their assignments?
2) What do you want them to take away with them?

reigningcatsndogs · Aug 2, 2007

Birol said:
The question I would ask, when creating a reading list, is

1) What do you want them to get out of their assignments?

I guess I want them to learn about language and how it can be used effectively and thoughtfully, and to learn that there is great value in books of all genres.

2) What do you want them to take away with them?

I would like them to take away a better understanding about society and people -- both the good and the bad. They should learn about and be influenced by strength of character, endurance, acceptance, tolerance... I would like them to finish a book wanting to know more about whatever issues the book dealt with.

When I was in school, I hated reading (could have been because our English teacher walked in every morning with his coffee cup full of rum, and then proceeded to explain to us why Juliet was standing on a balcony calling to Shylock, while Brutus plotted to kill Othello -- but that's just a hunch). When I left school and home, I started to read and I loved it, and I found I learned more from whatever book I was absorbed in than I ever learned in a high school social or history class. I'm sure part of this was because I chose a book because I was interested in a certain topic, but then it grew and the topics became more varied, as did the authors. I want my boys to learn this much sooner than I did!!! :Headbang:

It would be an added bonus if they could go on Jeopardy and kick some a** in the literature categories, win lots of money and then come home and shower me with much praise and presents!!!! :thankyou:

maestrowork · Aug 2, 2007

I was just talking to a teacher about that the other day. Seems like schools are very safe when assigning "classics": Catcher In the Rye, the Great Gatsby, etc. The consensus is that these are classics because of their universal themes, endurance, characters, and timelessness of the story. That said, my feeling is that there are many more "recent" classics that may be more suitable for kids today. Not that Shakespeare or Dickens is not relevant anymore, but at the same time, people don't write or talk like that anymore, and kids may have a problem relating to these classics. Going through Moby Dick might be like pulling teeth without Novocain, and how much can kids learn if they hate the material or can't relate to the writing or the characters or the time periods?

To me, I think it's worth looking into more "recent" classics.

Birol · Aug 2, 2007

The selection for high school literature courses is not about teaching people to write or speak, though. It's about giving them a basic overview of what is known, in various senses, as the canon. It's about giving them a grounding in the works of literature which have helped established our Western culture and possibly exposing them to other ways of looking at the world by showing them other perceptions and cultures.

Many schools don't teach Mark Twain's Huckleberry Finn these days because it uses the word nigger and that upsets parents. To me, that's a mistake, because to deny the reading of Huckleberry Finn because of word choice is to deny history, where we come from and who we were and how we, as a culture and society, have evolved or failed to evolve from that point in time.

Yes, books like The Awakening or Tess of the D'Urbervilles can come across as slow or stilted when you're accustomed to only reading books written in the late 20th or early 21st century, but we still have a lot to learn from them, not just as writers but as people.

rugcat · Aug 2, 2007

Curmudgeon speaking. High School is not what it used to be.

My junior year we read Gatsby. Then, for a full month, the teacher went over the book, examining themes, how the writing and choice of words and setting acted to advance the story and give clues to the meaning, etc. etc.

At the time, I thought I knew everything. What a shock to my teenage ego. It opened my eyes to how much I'd missed and just how much can be in a seemingly simple book.

You do need a great teacher to pull that sort of thing off, though.

dolores haze · Aug 2, 2007

Wow! Homeschooling high schoolers - that's definitely a challenge.
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You don't say how old your kids are, but I would definitely be getting their input on this. What books are they excited to read and study? You, of course, have the power of veto. Good luck. I'd be interested to know what books you finally decide on.

blacbird · Aug 2, 2007

Obviously there's no concrete qualification, but the point about a work enduring is well made. My short list of the most recent novels and plays that I would consider now to qualify as classics, precisely because they have endured and show no signs of not continuing to do so:

To Kill a Mockingbird, Harper Lee
A Clockwork Orange, Anthony Burgess
Lord of the Flies, William Golding
Catch-22, Joseph Heller
Death of a Salesman, Arthur Miller
A Streetcar Named Desire, Tennessee Williams
Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?, Edward Albee
Invisible Man, Ralph Ellison
Slaughterhouse-Five, Kurt Vonnegut
Wise Blood, Flannery O'Connor

The most recent of these is Vonnegut's, I believe, and it is nearly 40 years old. That might be a useful rule of thumb, four decades of continuous public attention and approval. Few of these, however highly regarded, would have been considered "classics" in, say, the 1960s. Likewise, there doubtless are recently-published works that will achieve similar status by, say, 2040. But it might be chancy to predict which ones right now.

caw

reigningcatsndogs · Aug 2, 2007

There's definitely huge value in the old classics that we were taught in school. I know that now, although in high school I was loath to even consider that fact. I am not one to shy away from anything that has been considered politically incorrect -- Mark Twain is a perfect example of what I mean, and the boys really enjoy them. I would like, however, to expose them to newer works as well, though.

The boys will be 16 and 17 this October. The older one has a preference for scifi/fantasy (and is in fact secretly working on his own m/s that I am not supposed to know about). The younger one is a nature fanatic. He is also autistic, so although he will be in grade 10, his reading level is about grade 7 or 8, so I always have to bear that fact in mind when choosing his books.

Any suggestions are very welcome!!!!

Jacob · Aug 2, 2007

I could be way off on this but most of the classics wich come to my mind seemed to have some sort of underlining message either about human nature or some sort of sociopolitical theme. Also, alot of the books wich were written during these times were banned as being heretical or the style of writing was uniquely different from the norm. I dont think a book has to fit in any of these categories to be defined as a classic but it seems as though writing has gone through an evolutionary process as well as anything else in history. These days it is a bit different. Because everyone is a revolutionary. I mean you could write a book trashing President Bush and it would probably hit the bestseller list but imagine doing that in Germany during WW2 and handing a signed a copy to Hitler. If anything I would say that classics remind us of the true revolutionaries and the names that gave adequate meaning to the phrase " suffering for your art". Alright Id like to write more but I just looked at the clock. Anyways goodnight all.

Jacob · Aug 2, 2007

reigningcatsndogs said:
There's definitely huge value in the old classics that we were taught in school. I know that now, although in high school I was loath to even consider that fact. I am not one to shy away from anything that has been considered politically incorrect -- Mark Twain is a perfect example of what I mean, and the boys really enjoy them. I would like, however, to expose them to newer works as well, though.

The boys will be 16 and 17 this October. The older one has a preference for scifi/fantasy (and is in fact secretly working on his own m/s that I am not supposed to know about). The younger one is a nature fanatic. He is also autistic, so although he will be in grade 10, his reading level is about grade 7 or 8, so I always have to bear that fact in mind when choosing his books.

Any suggestions are very welcome!!!!

For your son that likes Fantasy/Science Fiction I just finished "Otherland" by "Tad Williams" I let me my friend borrow it who is about your sons age and he could not put it down. I believe it is a trilogy but really, really involved and well written. Also C.S wrote a Sci Fi trilogy called "Out of the Silent Planet" Its a little more on the serious side but the books are great.

Storyteller5 · Aug 2, 2007

My favourite classics in high school were To Kill a Mockingbird, The Grapes of Wrath, Hamlet and Lord of the Flies. My DH read and enjoyed The Crysalids and Flowers for Algernon which may not be as well known but might fit with what you are looking for. Frankenstein is another classic which is good for someone into sci-fi-fantasy.

I agree classics are timeless tales with characters and values that people continue to relate to.

maestrowork · Aug 3, 2007

Some suggestions: Lord of the Flies, Fahrenheit 451, Catch-22, On the Road, The Kite Runner, Pride & Prejudice, Dr. Zhivago...

maestrowork · Aug 3, 2007

Birol said:
The selection for high school literature courses is not about teaching people to write or speak, though. It's about giving them a basic overview of what is known, in various senses, as the canon. It's about giving them a grounding in the works of literature which have helped established our Western culture and possibly exposing them to other ways of looking at the world by showing them other perceptions and cultures.

True -- there's the whole history of that we need to look into everything from the Bible (as lit) to Shakespeare to Joyce to Dickens. I'm also suggesting adding new classics to the mix and also foreign classics that expose them to different cultures (and not just western). According to the teachers I talked to, they're rather lacking. Some schools, especially with their gifted programs, are introducing students multicultural and modern literature to complement the old classics.

To me, I think whatever sparks the interest of the students is good. And it also depends on the teachers. Some classes and materials are so dry that it doesn't really do the students any good if they have to grind through the books. Old classics certainly have a place, but I'd say modern classics are also needed to complete the picture.

blacbird · Aug 3, 2007

maestrowork said:
Some suggestions: Lord of the Flies, Fahrenheit 451, Catch-22, On the Road, The Kite Runner, Pride & Prejudice, Dr. Zhivago...

All good and worthy books, but I would argue that The Kite Runner hasn't yet achieved the status of a classic. It needs to ferment in the public literary arena for a while.

caw

maestrowork · Aug 3, 2007

blacbird said:
All good and worthy books, but I would argue that The Kite Runner hasn't yet achieved the status of a classic. It needs to ferment in the public literary arena for a while.

caw

Give it another 10-15 years.

The immigrant angle, the universality of its themes, and the relevance of its social-political topics, plus the success it achieved as a debut novel -- I think these, combined, will push the book quickly to the "modern classic" level. I mean, if schools are studying The Notebook and Joy Luck Club, certainly they should add the Kite Runner in the mix.

blacbird · Aug 3, 2007

Pretty much what I said, Maestro. A cautionary note: I know people who touted the work of Carlos Castaneda having the makings of "classic" stuff, back when it was hotly popular in the 1960s.

Riiiiight.

caw

Jamesaritchie · Aug 3, 2007

reigningcatsndogs said:
I am interested in knowing what you think should be a classic book. I homeschool my boys, and after trying to get them through The Great Gatsby and some Dickens, my older son posed the question, 'What exactly makes a book a classic?' I wasn't sure how to answer. (IMHO Shakespeare is a valuable tool because he makes use of every language tool available, many of his works can be relevant to current situations, and the boys really enjoy him. They see the irony and the humor, but I think a big part of that is because they don't get all the peripheral complaints about the use of Olde English.) Is it endurance, use of language, content, the social position of the writer at the time...? I am not sure I should be forcing my boys to read A Tale of Two Cities, because in all honesty -- I cheated on that test. I hated the book and did not read it. I did read Thomas Hardy's Tess of the D'Urbervilles but hated it as well.

So, now that they are in high school and I am still their reigning teacher and principal, what books should I be focusing on? What books should be considered classics and would be great teaching tools, and which ones should I perhaps avoid? The educational and social future of my children could depend upon this!!!!

You shouldn't force your kids to read much of anything. You should instill a love of reading so great that they'll want to try reading everything.

And you shouldn't judge any book by whether you love or hate it. Dickens is a classic writer because after all these years millions still love his books, and still find great value in the lessons they teach.

And if they're now in high school, it's probably too late to force them to do anything, or to instill a love of teh classics in them. Eitehr they have such love for reading by now, or they probably never will have,

You shouldn't avoid any book labeled a classic. They've all earned the title. You should avoid judging books by whether you love or hate them, and allow your kids to make up their own minds without any preconceived biases of yours.

reigningcatsndogs · Aug 3, 2007

Actually, I am lucky because they both enjoy reading, many times to the point of neglecting whatever chores they may have. I don't force them to read, because that was what made me hate reading for years, but I wouldn't mind gently nudging them in some new directions. As for the traditional classics, we don't avoid them at all-- we have shelves of them here and have read many of them already. I just am looking for some new ideas, because they are still in school, they still need some guidance, and I do have to teach them something.

What should be considered 'a classic'?

reigningcatsndogs

Too sad for words.

Birol

Around and About

reigningcatsndogs

Too sad for words.

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray

Birol

Around and About

rugcat

Lost in the Fog

dolores haze

international guttersnipe

blacbird

reigningcatsndogs

Too sad for words.

Jacob

Jacob

Storyteller5

Say something...

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray

blacbird

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray

blacbird

Jamesaritchie

reigningcatsndogs

Too sad for words.