Questions about advances and royalties

Pamster · Jul 30, 2007

This will be my first book to sell so I wanted to find out from those of you who've already been here, what can I expect for an advance on a first YA Supernatural thriller? I know it's a great story and I am almost done with the first draft and it's coming along awesomely. So also I need to know how royalties are dealt with is it a quarterly payment or annually?

I appreciate any advice you guys can offer because I know an agent is going to go to bat for me on this piece, I am sure the first agent I send off to will snatch it up in a heartbeat because it's just that good of a story. What kind of advance do you think I can expect to see with a good agent at bat?

Thanks in advance for the replies everyone, you guys are the best and I appreciate all the encouragement on my writing you give me, I just hope that I can get this story finished soon so I can get the editing process started and write the query letter for it.

JanDarby · Jul 30, 2007

It's not YA-specific (more geared toward Romance, but includes some YA publishers, I believe), but check out Brenda Hiatt's "show me the money" at:

http://www.brendahiatt.com/id2.html

JD

Pamster · Jul 30, 2007

Great link JD, thank you for that. I really appreciate it, though I don't have a clue which publisher I will end up going to I did recognize a few of those listed.

bethany · Jul 30, 2007

Wow, that's a healthy dose of self confidence!

There's no way anyone can tell you what to expect, of all my published or about to be published friends, no two people have had the same experiences.

Pamster · Jul 30, 2007

I am not asking anyone to tell me what to expect, just to share what their experiences have been in this genre.

This is the best story I have ever written and I just know it's going to be the one to get my name out there.

The thing is I just don't know what to expect in regards to having an agent repping my work, they will obviously try harder to get a bigger sale, but I don't know how royalties work.

Is it four times a year or once that you get a check for the royalties off sales of your books? I have been hard at work for y ears writing all kinds of stories but this one is the best I've ever written, and I just know it's going to be snagged by the agent I really want to query about it first. I am sure she will flip over the premise and the execution of the plot. I am not being conceeded or anything, just convinced this is the one that will really get my career started.

Jimmer · Jul 30, 2007

Pamster,

Step One: Write a fantastic novel

Step Two: Find an agent who believes you have written a fantastic novel.

Step Three: Find a publisher who believes you have written a fantasic novel

Step Four: Get great reviews and earn out your advance

Step Five: Worry about the timing of royalties

Step Six: Be immensely self confident about your future

It's a very tough business. That's not to say first time authors can't make it big. It is unlikely though. Worrying about your advance and royalty is not something you should focus on at this point. Writing publishable fiction is an art and requires tremendous talent, perseverance, and good old butt in chair dedication. Not many folks have those qualities. Learn the craft. Take classes. Attend workshops. Join critique groups. Read constantly. And keep your fingers crossed. I'll cross mine for you.

Best wishes,
Jimmer

bethany · Jul 30, 2007

Only thing I can tell you really, is the process is sloooow. I sold my book last October, and it will be released fall '08. Worrying about royalties at this point is a waste of time, for you or for me.

Christine N. · Jul 30, 2007

Yeah, focus on selling the book first, then the money. And if you get an agent, THEY worry about the money- usually the publisher pays the agent, the agent takes their cut, and passes the rest on to you.

Most are quarterly, I think. Both my publishers are quarterly.

Cathy C · Jul 30, 2007

It's semi-annual for the major NY publishers, from my own experience and those I've talked to. Jan-June royalty statements go out in late September/early October, and July-Dec go out the following year in late March/early April.

In reality, after you get your advance paid out, it'll be at least a full year before you see any more, because the first royalty period will only show books SHIPPED to retailers. The second royalty period will show more books shipped, plus books RETURNED from the previous batch, unsold. It's only after the returned books are taken into account that the publisher will know what money is owed you. After that, it depends on your contract whether they pay you that period, or hold the royalties for one (or two) additional royalty periods until they're certain everybody has reported in.

As others have said--it's a SLOOOOOWWWW process. Le sigh...

Pamster · Jul 30, 2007

Thanks everyone for the replies, I was wondering about how it works when you get that far because I am in the final stages of work on this awesome YA novel that I think will really do well and I want to prepare myself for the changes it would mean if I am successful in getting the agent I want and then her selling te book to a bigger house then I had ever dared to hope for before I started working on this book.

I really appreciate the answers because I need to think about the future and what a new career in writing means for us financially. I hope to post soon that I got the agent I have my eye on once I finished the query and of course finish this book I am so close to wrapping up. It's good to know where you stand you know? And that was all I wanted to know when I posted this.

Just needed to know more about what happens after you get the agent's interested and sign that first contract with them.

Thanks everyone for the advice, I really appreciate it, thanks for posting!

moondance · Jul 31, 2007

I need to think about the future and what a new career in writing means for us financially

I'm sorry, I shouldn't laugh. I really hope you get the deal you want. I have now published five books (two more out next year) and I still can't afford to give up the day job.

maddythemad · Jul 31, 2007

I don't want this to seem mean, but I think you should just concentrate on editing the book and finding the awesome agent and the awesome editor before worrying about what you're going to be paid. Advances vary so much that there's really no point in trying to worry about what you're "likely" to get. I know it's really tempting to daydream about that 6-figure advance (I've definitely gone there), but really all that matters now is actually finishing the book and writing a kick-ass query letter. As fun as writing is, it unfortunately isn't a good career if you want to be able to "predict" the kind of money you'll be making.

But good luck with the awesome agent and, shortly thereafter, the awesome deal!

johnrobison · Jul 31, 2007

I would not suggest making any plans that involve cash income from writing until you are much farther down the road, several books at least. As you have read, most advances are small, under $10,000, and if considered an hourly wage, they represent what, $1-$10 an hour to write the book?

And then, most books do not sell enough copies to earn out the advance. In paperback, you'll need 10,000 copies, more of less which seems like an easy target until you see actual orders.

Some writers, like my brother, have the combination of talent and luck to build a career writing in just a few years. Perhaps you're another - I don't know. But I'd urge caution in terms of planning until you have a sense of where it's going, and unless you write a huge bestseller right off, that will take a number of books to resolve.

As a rule, your advance will be paid 1/3 on signing the deal, 1/3 upon completion of manuscript editing, and 1/3 on publication. If your book comes out in hardcover first, it may be paid in quarters with the final quarter paid on paperback release. So the advance, whatever it is, is staggered over 2-3 years. And you lose 15% to the agent, and then 25-40% to taxes. So even a $100,000 advance will not make a huge change in most people's lives, net of all deductions and spread over time.

If you want to plan for a future, write 10-15 books, and write books that will sell some thousands of copies a year, for decades. Then you'll have a predictable stream of royalty that would support you. But for not, that's too far off to plan for except in the most general way.

Pamster · Jul 31, 2007

Thanks for the advice everyone and especially you John Robison & Cathy C. I wanted to know the answer to the main question, and I got it, there is no need to laugh at me or anything. That and much of this post is aimed at moondance whose reply I am a bit offended over the mention of laughing at me and with all the views this got I am sure now others are laughing at me too. I am not daydreaming about a six figure advance on a first book, I'm eager, not stupid. I just know that when I get a lump sum I could very well lose my medical coverage and I needed to know if royalties were once a year or quarterly so I can start to think about the future and how I am going to swing trying to keep my medical coverage. I really don't need words put in my mouth, okay?

I have six other books ready to go, if this one I am finally writing that is coming along really great and is almost done, does well I might lose my medical coverage and other income. I was asking a serious question and I really appreciate the serious answers I got. Because this is deadly serious to me to chance losing what little I have without really being prepared to start making a living with my writing. If I had just one novel and one advance to think about then I could see it not being a big deal and it wouldn't be, but I am a prolific writer and have been at this for years without being brave enough to send my stuff out before until after I found AW last year and started to feel more confident about my work.

If I get a $10,000 advance (and that was all I was hoping to hear for goodness sake) odds are I will be without medical coverage, doesn't that justify my asking the questions I did? Isn't it okay to ask questions here and not get patronized?

I really am sure this new book is the one that will sell first, and with three more children's stories ready to go and at least three more I can write after this one is finished, I wanted more information to help encourage me to take the plunge that submitting the next query letter I will write means for me.

I'm sorry if people got offended by this thread, maybe it should be closed and this post of mine removed...Because I really didn't want to 'go there' about my bleak financial situation but apparently I needed to justify why I asked the questions I did. If the tone of this thread doesn't improve after this then I won't be posting again in it. I've seen other questions about money posted not get this reaction, so I don't understand why my thread got some of the responses it did.

Is it just because I am excited about this new book? I don't think that's really fair to 'rain on my parade' like that just because I am confident this new book is the one to get my career moving, even if it's off to a slow start it will hopefully start moving forward.

shana · Jul 31, 2007

I've read many articles that state that the average advance for a first time author is $5000, but I know several authors who got less than that and several who got a lot more. So it does vary from one extreme to the other.

My advance is being paid in three parts. I had a two book contract, so I got half of the advance when I signed the contract earlier this year, one-fourth when I submitted the final copy of the first book a couple months ago, and I'll get the last one-fourth when I turn in the final copy of the second book next year.

As for royalties, mine are twice a year, which I believe is typical. But keep in mind that you have to earn out your advance first before you'll ever see royalties. So it could be many years before I start receiving them, or maybe never if I don't earn out my advance. :Shrug:

Royalties tend to be in the range of 5-10% of the cover price of the book.

I hope that's helpful. Keep up the confidence, you need it in this business!

Pamster · Jul 31, 2007

Thanks for the great reply Shana, I appreciate the words of wisdom.

Your post was definitely helpful, thank you for replying.

I just hope that I am able to keep my medical coverage once I get to the point where you and others are at. I am so close to finishing this YA Supernatural Thrilled that I can just imagine the query letter I'll be writing in a few days.

It's just coming out better then I could have ever hoped.

Grey Malkin · Jul 31, 2007

To be fair, Moondance's reaction wasn't all that bad when you consider the information she did post. It's only natural to wonder what you'll be paid, and that doesn't mean you're hoping for a whopping advance, just enough to make you think, 'Hey, it really was worthwhile.' The problem is, it usually isn't worthwhile, which is what Moondance's reply did point out. It's been said too many times that the avarage writer would make more money on a checkout. A thread like this is far more likely to put you off that next submission than encourage you because YA fiction doesn't pay very well compared to other genres, simply because it doesn't sell as well. If it's not going to sell well, then why give a decent advance?

The other thing to consider is the time all of this takes. If you sign a two book deal for $10,000, then that could seen as $5,000 per book, and each book has milestones, so you might get $1,500 for handing the original script across, $1,500 for when edits and rewrites have been agreed, and a final $2,000 when it goes to print. That process could take over a year. Your earning for your first year could be $3,000 even though you signed a $10,000 advance! What if you get offered a $2,000 advance for a single book deal, or $6,000 for a four book deal. It gets more depressing by the minute.

And don't forget tax!! Some advise putting half of everything you earn into a separate account so the money is there when it comes to sorting the Inland Revenue (or IRS). So what little you had coming in has now been halfed.

To make it worthwhile, you really need an advance of some magnitude, and they are few and far between. What's worse, is if you are lucky enough to get a good avance, but your royalties don't cover it, the publisher will drop you. Career over.

Best just think about writing for now.

bethany · Jul 31, 2007

You have to be a bit egotistical just to be a writer, otherwise why would you believe anyone would ever want to read what you've written.

That part that seems problematic is your assertion that your number one agent is going to take you on. It may happen, and I hope it does! But things don't always pan out. The agent you have your heart set on may have just signed something similar, may not connect with your voice. Try to keep your optimism, but also don't put all your hope into one agent. There are lots of good agents who rep YA.

And Moondance, I'm interested in why you think YA doesn't sell. I know there has been a glut of YA lately, and recently my editor even mentioned that the shelves were getting overly full in the YA section, but isn't that because YA is selling?

Pamster · Jul 31, 2007

It's the laughing at me that bothered me Grey Malkin, and I am concentrating on writing now. But what you're saying about the process itself is just the kind of info I was looking for so thank you for sharing that, I really want to know what to expect, if it goes along the lines of what you've posted then I think I can keep my medical coverage which is the main burning issue I have at the moment.

You see I was afraid of success at this business and that is what kept me from daring to submit anything. Coming here last year changed all that in my outlook and I really appreciate what this community is all about. I am glad to have found AW when I did too, because I have so much material now submitting is a lot easier then I had first thought it would be.

Thanks again for your informative post. I guess I kind of took moondance's post too personally and let it bother me about the laughing thing. See if there is one thing I can't stand its being mocked or made fun of. And it felt like as I read moondances post that it was sarcasm and patronizing so my feelings were hurt. I still stand behind what I said above though, I am not trying to be naive about things, I am just trying to get ready for the next stages of what is to come.

I can't help being a little off right now because I am fighting a dreafulo ear infection and cold all at once. I am probably just a little sensitive at being told to just worry about finishing the book when I already am thinking about finishing the book.

I just felt a tad bit patronized, what can I say, I'm sorry if I over-reacted, but like I said, I am sick and feel like dog crap and wanted to post something that would help encourage me to keep on keeping on and to prepare for what is to come.

Pamster · Jul 31, 2007

"That part that seems problematic is your assertion that your number one agent is going to take you on."

Is that why I got the reaction from you and others that I did Bethany? I know she might chose to pass, but she's not the only agent I have my eye on. I just happen to think she will jump on this project as soon as it's ready for submitting.

johnzakour · Jul 31, 2007

Hi:

$3,500 -- $10,000 is reasonable for a new author advance.

Pamster · Jul 31, 2007

Thanks Johnzakour, I had a feeling I was thinking along the right lines as to what to expect. Thanks for posting!

reenkam · Jul 31, 2007

Hey Pamster!

I don't really have any information about advances and royalties, but I just wanted to say that I understand your concern. I have a similar situation where an advance would lower my financial aid for college and I'd definitely want to know when the payments/royalties might come in, just because of the greater expenses I would have, which would be more than they were before.

Let's hope, though, that your story gets picked up quickly and sells amazingly! I know the idea and I think it's awesome, so I'm definitely awaiting the moment I'll be able to buy a copy (ps, if you're looking for betas, keep me in mind

)

Definitely keep your head up and work for the very, very best. If you start settling before the book's even finished, it could never go far. But your enthusiasm will keep you pumped and writing well and let you shoot for the stars and reach them! Good luck and keep us updated of your progress!

Cathy C · Jul 31, 2007

It's okay, Pamster. I know just EXACTLY how you feel about wanting to know the process before you start. I started out asking the exact same questions and read a ton before I started to submit (actually, before I finished the first book--I submitted before it was done. That's how green I was.)

Medical coverage is indeed a major issue with writers. I'm fortunate that my husband has a job that provides coverage. When he worked a different job that didn't, we had to buy a private policy and the yearly fee equated to the full advance on one book. That's a big deal, especially when advances don't arrive on time or often.

Once you're represented, sit down and talk with a Financial Planner to see what sort of options you have. It might be worthwhile to use that first advance to pay a full years' premium (which is what I did.) It really helps out and gives you that peace of mind when writing on the next one. Taxes are the other issue, but fortunately, payments to the Feds are only quarterly and sometimes, the advance split works out just about right so you can pay the first quarter taxes with the second quarter check.

If you're on SSD, SSI or Medicare and fear losing benefits because of the extra income, that's a real issue. SSD has been cracking down hard on authors just because of this issue. I'd recommend a trip to your local SS office NOW to find out what your options are. It's worthwhile to mention to them that when you have a contract in hand, that money isn't owed to you for some time and is a gross amount, without taxes withheld. They actually can mark that down in your file, so you're not hit in the benefits for the full amount.

Good luck, and don't worry about people thinking you're paranoid to ask now. Remember--you're only paranoid if you're wrong. If you're right, they'll call you proactive!

Grey Malkin · Jul 31, 2007

Bear in mind that not all publishers can afford to pay an advance. There are lots of indie publishers who will take you on, publish and distribute your book, possibly even promote it, but don't have the bank accounts to pay in advance of royalties they hope to receive. And there's always the self publishing route...

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