Uncle Jim a question for you...

I am in the process of reading your thread. I only read a few pages a day and take very precise notes. I am kind of looking at it like a writing course and going through each example and suggestion as such.

The reason I did not post my question in your "writing a novel" thread is because my question stems from like page 12 or 13 and I did not want to confuse everybody, since I do not know, yet, what is on the later pages.

Anyhow, you say "all fiction needs to be plausible", but what about sci fi and fantasy? Are they not fiction? And books about them are they not novels?

I am just kind of confused there. My writing has a good deal of fantasy and also plausible situations. So what is it I write?

Just curious.

Thanks.

~~Tammy

If I may speak for Jim...What he's saying is that it needs to be *logical*, unless, of course, you're writing some sort of experimental piece, but Jim's addressing specifically commercial fiction in his thread.

That is to say, that you can write a fantasy, but you can't have an illogical plot, or characters that don't act plausible--say, a character that jumps into danger when there's nothing driving him to do it, etc.

If I may

I think what is being asked is even more basic than that.

All novels are fiction. (this includes genre fiction, scifi, fantasy, romance etc.)

Non-fiction is true. Not ficticious.

Of course non-fiction is plausible, what else can it be, since it is based in truth? It is facts.

Plausible means that a story has to seem as if it could happen.

Fiction; SciFi is science fiction, fantasy is also fiction--both are novels (if they are book length.) But the stories need to be plausible. This means that they have to seem as if the fiction presented is actually factual--it has to seem as if it could have happened. Otherwise your readers are left rolling their eyes saying--"Oh, PLEASEEEEEEEEEEEE."

Then they toss the book aside.

I saw a 1950's something space movie -- don't remember the name but it had these people going to the moon in it. They took live chickens as a food source, and didn't wear space suites, in fact the woman in the story wore a nice Joan Cleaver type dress. --- ummm, that is not plausible fiction. It is fiction, but it suspends the reader suspension of disbelief--in other words you have written something that the reader knows could not happen. It is not plausible.

Same with magic in a fantasy story--it has to be plausible, otherwise what would be the point? Anytime the main character got in trouble they would just whip out their magic ring and zap everything would be cool and they'd go on happy happy joy joy. So most magic has a cost.

If you write fantasy and scifi, you write genrefiction (not fiction novels, as I said all novels are fiction, a novel is fiction) (genre fiction --fiction that falls into a particular category)

But it all needs to plausible, logical and let the reader fall into the world you created because it seems real based on the facts that are currently common knowledge.

Shawn

Re: If I may

Anyhow, you say "all fiction needs to be plausible", but what about sci fi and fantasy? Are they not fiction? And books about them are they not novels?

Click to expand...

What Shawn said, plus:

Fiction is stories about people. It doesn't matter whether your people are elves and dwarves and orcs or humans and vulcans and borgs. They still must be recognizably people -- that is, have motives we can understand (even if we don't agree) and act in understandable ways because of those motives. No matter how unusual your setting, it's just a vehicle for the people who inhabit it and their journey.

I define "plausible" as follows:

If the characters you're reading about were real people in a real environment, could you reasonably believe that the people described would act the way they're acting?

This, by the way, is one of the differences between fiction and non-fiction. Truth isn't always plausible. Fiction should be.


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley

Re: If I may

I saw a 1950's something space movie -- don't remember the name but it had these people going to the moon in it. They took live chickens as a food source, and didn't wear space suites, in fact the woman in the story wore a nice Joan Cleaver type dress.

Click to expand...

I'd LOVE to see this!

Re: If I may

Yeah, all that stuff. I think another term for "plausible" might be "internally consistent." Have you thought through the logical actions your characters, or the society they're in, would perform, and is everything logical?

For example, suppose you're writing a fantasy story, set in a world where magic works. Now, that's not "plausible" in the sense of being representative of real-world setting or action. But that sense of "plausible" isn't what's important.

What's important is that the world you've created is constistent. You're starting out with the supposition: suppose magic works. Now: How does it work? Who is able to perform magic? What's the cost? What are the limitations? How does that affect society? And so forth.

For example, suppose most magic was done just by repeating a simple phrase. ("Abracadabra" comes to mind. ) Wouldn't then nearly everyone in the world perform magic all the time, if it's so easy? So if, in your story, only a small percentage of people use magic, that would be inconsistent, or implausible, unless you had a really good explanation. That's the kind of implausibility to look out for.

Re: If I may

So if I wrote a book about Bigfoot living in a bigfoot society as long as I was consistent about the way they lived and acted, it would be plausible?

What about the book "Tarzan" where he can talk to the apes and then also talk to the humans. Is this plausible? Is it a novel? Because in the thread Jim says "Dracula" is not a novel because it is not plausible. So wouldn't the same apply to "Tarzan".

Honestly, I am still confused. Explain it to me where a backward hillbilly would understand. Honestly I am not dumb but I just can't seem to drasp this.

~~Tammy

Say what?

Huh?

OK, here it is:

All book length works of fiction are novels. Period. All novels are fiction. non-fiction can not be called a novel. Novel refers to a work of fiction. So you are not a fiction novel writer. You would say my novel blank blank is about, not my fiction novel is about--

From good old Merriam Webster:

Main Entry: novel
Function: noun
Etymology: Italian novella
1 : an invented prose narrative that is usually long and complex and deals especially with human experience through a usually connected sequence of events
2 : the literary genre consisting of novels


Honestly I don't understand what you are asking? Where, on what page, does UJ say that about Dracula?

Shawn

Re: Say what?

I think Yog is talking about the difference between novels and romances. Novels being "realistic" fiction and romances being about extraordinary characters, settings or events.

Stuck

I found the page being talked about--taxonomically, is the word Jim uses. Meaning by the strictest classification, Dracula is not a Novel.

You're focusing on a minor point. Move on. No one is going to point a finger and say but but this isn't a NOVEL! (unless it's too short to be one.)

Dracula is not plausible according the the facts of the universe as we understand them. But the majority of people would still call it a novel.

You write SciFi and Fantasy--so concentrate on the fact that you write genre fiction and move on from the do I write novels?

Shawn

Re: If I may

Because in the thread Jim says "Dracula" is not a novel because it is not plausible.

I think I said that Dracula wasn't a novel because it wasn't realistic.

By "plausible" I mean something that won't engender the "Oh, come on!" reaction, followed by the reader throwing the book against the wall.

When a story is plausible it follows all known physical laws and psychological and social principles, unless absolutely necessary for the plot. And in those cases where you have to discard a physical law, say, you have to provide an explanation that the readers will buy for at least the time they're reading the story.

Self-consistent, logical, based on sound observation -- after that you can do your "What If." As in What if a master vampire arrived in present-day London? That's Dracula (and the story was present-day for London in 1897), and the story is worked out rigorously from there. The existence of vampires implies the existence of vampire-hunters. And so on.

Anything can be plausible as long as it follows the internal ground rules you've laid down in your story.

Sure, you can write about Bigfoots living in a Bigfoot society, and it can be perfectly plausible. As long as your story is internally consistent and logical, readers will suspend their disbelief for you... unless you knock them out of the story by adding something that doesn't fit into the world you've created. And, of course, even if you're writing fiction set in modern-day America, you're still creating a world.

An implausible novel-length work of fiction is still a novel, it's just a bad one.

Anything can be plausible as long as it follows the internal ground rules you've laid down in your story.

Very true.

Watership Down was a plausible story about talking rabbits.

Stories are lies about our truths. Where to draw the line is art.

Oooooh, that's deep. Kudos to you, maestro! :thumbs