frame story/ point of view problems...

I added a frame story to my book. i had been playing around with the point of view. i started writing in third person limited, hopping between the minds of many different chararcters between scenes.

then, i started using first person for the "villain"'s part of the book, to draw readers into it's world, and make the reader more sympathetic.

yesterday i moved the end of the story to the beginning. it starts with the victorious king giving a speech, decrying the rebels (who are the protagonists, although the king is a good guy too. almost everyone is good on both sides in my book.)

the last surviving rebel, Kiira, (who has been reconciled to the king), challengs is description, and tries to sway the crowd to believe the rebels weren't so bad. to that end she tells them her story...

that's the frame, which i chose for several reasons. it adds tensionto the opening, clearly outlines the theme (moral ambiguity) and what the book is about (rebellion).

the problem is, the book isn't Kiira's story. the protagonist, the central character, is dead, so can't present his viewpoint. is it necessary to use first person, and limit the story to what Kiira would know? is it possible, after "flashing back", to have a third person narrator describe other scenes? can i use other first persons?

i wouldn't mind presenting the other viewpoints from within the frame, but by the end of the story, 2 are mostly dead and 3 are all dead.

help?

the problem is, the book isn't Kiira's story.

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Yep. That's a problem.

the protagonist, the central character, is dead, so can't present his viewpoint.

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You've written a fantasy, right? Why can't his ghost tell the story, a la SUNSET BLVD?

is it necessary to use first person, and limit the story to what Kiira would know?

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If she's telling us the story, first person is probably advisable. If she tells us something she couldn't know, the reader may well assume that she's making it up. She'd be an unreliable narrator.

is it possible, after "flashing back", to have a third person narrator describe other scenes? can i use other first persons?

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Depends on how many people stand up to talk.

Frankly, it sounds like you have the wrong framing story.

The only times I've seen a frame story not detract from the main story was "1001 Nights" and "The Illustrated Man."

It never hurts to write the same chapter from different POVs and see which one works best. The worst that will happen is you will have had a learning experience.

Overall I agree with HConn. Perhaps you should rethink your story.

Well, rethink the frame, maybe.

A suggestion

What you are trying to do is possible, but difficult. It can work if the character telling the story is one that the reader can trust (presumably because of her actions throughout the story) and would have a chance to discover all of the details she tells us.

If you can think of another way to tell the story that works well, do that. If you absolutely must frame it like this, I'd suggest reading other books where one of the characters tells the story and includes scenes that aren't from his/her viewpoint. The only one I can think of off the top of my head is Anne Rice's book, "The Queen of the Damned," which is told as if it were an account written by Lestat, even though he is not present in many of the scenes.

Re: A suggestion

The only times I've seen a frame story not detract from the main story was "1001 Nights" and "The Illustrated Man."

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I disagree. There are a number of great novels out there with frame narratives that really excel.

One that immediately comes to mind is Shelley's Frankenstein

Also, Nabokov's Pale Fire (a wonderful, wonderful read)

There are some great novels that employ this technique expertly. Do a search on frame narratives in novels and see what comes of it. Read a few of these and then revise your novel accordingly.

Re: A suggestion

thanks, everyone. I'm looking at other framed stories.

however, maybe the frame isn't write for the book.

time will tell, unless anyone has any further inspiration.

Re: A suggestion

I disagree. There are a number of great novels out there with frame narratives that really excel.

One that immediately comes to mind is Shelley's Frankenstein

Also, Nabokov's Pale Fire (a wonderful, wonderful read)

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I don't remember Frankenstein as being framed. He started out in love with his cousin I think, he devolved into the person who created Frankenstein, he created Frankenstein, then chased Frankenstein, the end.

Pale Fire I don't remember reading, but it seems to me it was two stories, in parallel, not one framed by the other.

Re: A suggestion

I don't remember Frankenstein as being framed. He started out in love with his cousin I think, he devolved into the person who created Frankenstein, he created Frankenstein, then chased Frankenstein, the end.

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Frankenstein begins with letters from the captain of the boat and he goes into telling the story through Frankenstein. The frame narrative is within the realm of the letters, while the narrative proper is told by Frankenstein. You might even argue that Frankenstein has multiple frames...but that's neither here nor there.

Pale Fire is mostly falsification and obsessive commentary by Kimbote. What's so genius about Pale Fire is that it mocks critical editions of a work. In this case, Kimbote usurps the focus and the poem falls out as the center of the show and Kimbote's commentary takes its place. It's a frame narrative because the story is told through Kimbote's commentary on poem. The book begins with Kimbote's foreword on the importance of Shade's poem, then provides the text, followed by Kimbote's excessive commentary, which tells a story. The frame is the critical text, the story is told within this frame.

Reframed

Can we say then that a frame story works best when it blends so well with the main story that it isn't all that obvious to the "lay reader." (I still find it difficult to read as a writer, or in a critical, or analytical fashion unless the story is so atrocious I put it down.)

I doubt if I'll ever reread Frankenstein, but the next time I come across Pale Fire I'll have to pick it up. You sound as tho there is a lot to it I missed.

Re: Reframed

Can we say then that a frame story works best when it blends so well with the main story that it isn't all that obvious to the "lay reader."

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basically, the best stories are those in which upon the first read, you're really not thinking too much about the mechanics of the telling. the best stories keep you so engrossed that you don't ask questions like "how" until afterward.

Pale Fire

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is fun because I've met researchers so entrenched in their material that they somehow feel as if they are family or personal friends. Kimbote allows the readers to see everything that they should never do when editing a text. It brings up a number of really great ethical questions. Granted, I haven't read it for years, but I remember having a great time with the book. Byatt's

Possession: A Romance

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is another novel that really hits this theme home.

Also of note is a trilogy of novels by David Lodge, if you like University novels. They are absolutely hilarious, not to mention quick reads.

Re: Reframed

is fun because I've met researchers so entrenched in their material that they somehow feel as if they are family or personal friends. Kimbote allows the readers to see everything that they should never do when editing a text. It brings up a number of really great ethical questions. Granted, I haven't read it for years, but I remember having a great time with the book. Byatt's

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Being uneducated myself, and therefore never having been exposed to anyone doing that type of research I find this bit of information fascinating.

Also of note is a trilogy of novels by David Lodge, if you like University novels. They are absolutely hilarious, not to mention quick reads.

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I find stories about high school uninteresting and boring. I think because I never went and never wanted to. I find stories about universities intriguing. I think because I would have liked to have gone.

Re: Reframed

I may have solved the problem.

I'm still working out the details. i added a couple more actual narrators. (they get into an argument with the first narrator.)

then, the dead people. one man's story is told in 3rd person by his wife, the dead protagonist bequaths his memories unto the living narrator as he dies. that leaves only a few holes to be filled. i can either cut those scenes, or figure out a vehicle for their narration.

(one character was reincarnated as an infant. if i change him to a young child, he could tell his story. maybe.)

Re: Reframed

Just read Pale Fire, and reading it remember what I was thinking the first time.

When I first read it what struck me was Nabakov's ability to show the obsessive individual. He is good at it. Makes me wonder what, besides writing, Nabakov was obsessed about.

What I find most interesting this time, that somehow escaped me when I first read it (Well, I was just a kid, what do you expect?) is Nabakov's ability to pass information to the reader, using first person, that the lead char is unaware of, oblivious to the meaning of, misinterprets, or even outright denies.

And yes, I see what you are talking about concerning the frames, which completely escaped me on the first read.