PA Authors Then and Now

My response, and I believe most of the responses, to your initial thread was not so much hostile as curious. It seemed to be an abrupt announcement of some sort of cheerleading squad mission statement that applied to nothing in particular.

I have to say... this is actually a welcoming place. But this is a SECOND thread that seems to be announcing AN IMPORTANT THING, yet doesn't... and you also appear to be proclaiming your innocence in the equally obscure offenses before anyone has accused you of anything.

To whit: wtf???

I dunno, I've seen what happens when you bring these things up. Some things are better left alone.

"Much of this negativity is directed at PA authors. Some (not all) of the authors who are doing these things are ex-PA authors.

Authors who have themselves been banned from the PAMB, authors who have stood abuse, authors who have also endured this publishing experience. Yet, these are the same ones inflicting personal attacks to those who also suffer. What is with that? Is it a defense mechanism to suck up to the PA "bashers" so they themselves do not suffer?

Whatever the case may be, it is wrong. If you want to "help" authors refrain from negativity and give them something positive to reach for. You may say "Oh they have big egos" "

I'm going to respond to this for a couple of reasons.

The first of which is because I posted that writers have big egos on your last thread. I didn't post that PA authors had big egos; I said writers, and I believe that.

The second of which is I am still a PA author; however much I regret it. I've never been banned by the PAMB...well maybe I am now since I filed for arbitration, but I forgot my password to that board so long ago I can't remember when it got lost.

I consider one of the e-mails I received from PA to be extremely abusive, but I didn't come to this site for sympathy and hugs or to make new friends. I came here to learn. No one here attacked me, and I don't particularly see anyone defensive about being associated with PA except you.

You want everyone here to refrain from negativity, but it's a fact that some criticism is negative. In having one's work critiqued a writer has to expect some of that.

I'm blunt when I have an opinion. I state my mind. I know some people like to skirt around issues and are more afraid of hurting feelings than solving a problem. I'm not like that.

You also posted, "Some say PA authors can't write. Have you read their book?" I will tell you the truth. I've read a couple of PA books which I enjoyed. But more often than not I have seen how many PA authors write on the message boards and their grammatical errors, and spelling and punctuation errors as well. Between those and the tone of their posts I have NO desire to read their books.

I understand what you are trying to say. I have since your first post. The problem is; as I see it...you want all of us to agree with you and do things your way.

Your post above says that it's wrong for some of us to post as we do, and for us to judge, but apparently it's okay for you to act as judge and criticize some of us.

And I don't agree with that. We don't HAVE to agree for you or anyone; PA author or not, to come here and post, and learn. And you don't have to like me anymore than I have to like you.

Marie

I knew where you were coming from and I believe, had an idea of your intent. I remember well that you were the only one who had the guts to stand up for another abused author and that you were banned for doing so. I believe your intent in these postings is to stand up for others here.
I believe that the post you refer to was a slap at PA, not an entitlement belief.
What you say below is nothing more than Mr. Macdonald has said repeatedly and even applied in circumstances I’m not sure I could.
I have tried to use Heinlein’s unpublishable For Us the Living as an example that writers should not give up. If I had read that first I doubt very much I’d have read another book by him, which would have been my loss.
The problem with reading PA books is that usually that involves giving PA money. I have been trying hard for some time to rationalize buying Mr. Harpe’s book because it sounds like something I would enjoy reading and failing . I’ve tried to find a used copy being sold somewhere and have failed. I don’t see any great moral problem with used bookstores profiting from PA books. I’ve even gone so far as to list what I thought might be potential markets for his book if he ever gets his rights back.
True enough, we shouldn’t judge a book if we haven’t at least tried to read it. PA makes no attempt to distinguish between good and bad writing in its acceptances. It takes whatever comes in and then is content to only market it to the author’s friends and family. Because they basically publish slush piles, they do occasionally get good books from authors who don’t know any better. PA does very little editing of its books. It makes the appearance of promising to get books into bookstores then makes it impossible for bookstores to stock the books. Even such small publishers as the Sheridan County Historical Society Press do more promotion than PA does for any of its 20,000 authors.

I'm a PA author who hasn't tried terribly hard to get my rights back. Why doesn't matter; I'm just telling you where I stand with PA.

The first year I was here at AW, I lurked. I watched for attacks on PA writers and I can honestly say they were so few and far between, they barely registered at all. The second year, I joined and didn't say much, hanging out in the PA threads until I felt comfortable telling my tale. I was welcomed with open arms, given virtual cookies and milk, drawn into the circle around the fire and comforted.

But when I got tired of the same-ol'-same-ol' circle of noobs coming in from the cold and PA defenders coming and going and flame wars erupting over the Pros and Cons of PA... when I got depressed, actually, I shook the dust of PA and the PA forum from the bottom of my sandals and I rarely look back now. I've moved on and I heartily recommend it to others. There IS life after PA. The PA section of this forum is only one tiny little bit of its overall worth - it's a place of rest, recouperation, and no small amount of healing... but sometimes, ya just gotta move on. Let it go. Get on with writing that better book or helping a fellow writer with a crit or a beta read. Have a little fun in OP. Argue politics or current events in TIO. Dip your toes back in the pool occasionally - but don't live here. Life will be much sweeter in the long run.

Well, Ol'FG, if nothing else we all know you can write. That was eloquent, sista!

This is NOT about me.

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I would be interested to know if anyone who reads your initial post can honestly think that this is not about you. I know you are saying it isn't, but I cannot find a way of interpreting/reading that post that leads me to any other conclusion then that it is all about you and for me that is the problem. You think you are being unfairly treated because you are a PA author when the simple truth is, people are disagreeing with some of your posts because of their content and message and it has NOTHING to do with where you book is produced.

Just curious. Would any like to show me where I have gone wrong in coming to that conclusion?

endless rewrite said:

Just curious. Would any like to show me where I have gone wrong in coming to that conclusion?

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I agree that no one is picking on the OP because she is a PA author.

But people in that thread did single her out because of of a miscommunication caused by the thread-move. They made waspish , uncalled-for statements. Specifically, posts 5, 8 (depending on intent), 19, 21 (depending how you read the first two lines), 31, 41, 58, and 80.

Plus, there were apparently some hostile words sent through the reputation system. I can see both points of view here; I really wish the concerned parties would let the subject die. Forum drama happened, oh my god, thread locked, please move on.

Bartholomew, I could dispute your selective selection of posts and their intent but as you went to so much trouble and I have difficulty even wrapping quote marks around something it would be futile. Negative rep points, comments and worse were flying about all over, there really isn't a victim here. That's the way it goes sometimes when you post something that a lot of people have a problem with it and usually the mods step in before it gets out of hand.

I don't like to ask for any thread to end if people find it stimulating to debate the content but everything that needed to be said wherever people stand on this issue has probably been said on the initial thread and it's still there in all its mutated glory. I don't think any one's mind is going to be changed by continuing. It shouldn't have been resurrected and so I for one am done with it.

endless rewrite said:

It shouldn't have been resurrected and so I for one am done with it.

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Then we're in a state of complete agreement.

"Then we're in a state of complete agreement."

I would not consider finding discussion on a topic senseless as complete agreement. But like endless, I have said everything I find worth saying on the matter.

I've appropriately filed your opinion.

Probably the same place I filed yours.

Afinerosesheis said:

I recently posted a thread in here that took a lot of heat. Many misunderstood my intent. I apologize for my part in this.

The point I would like to make is about PA authors and ex-PA authors. Our publishing experience is a little different...enough said on that. What bothers me is the authors who resort to pointing fingers, making digs, calling names etc. Much of this negativity is directed at PA authors. Some (not all) of the authors who are doing these things are ex-PA authors.

Authors who have themselves been banned from the PAMB, authors who have stood abuse, authors who have also endured this publishing experience. Yet, these are the same ones inflicting personal attacks to those who also suffer. What is with that? Is it a defense mechanism to suck up to the PA "bashers" so they themselves do not suffer?

Whatever the case may be, it is wrong. If you want to "help" authors refrain from negativity and give them something positive to reach for. You may say "Oh they have big egos" or "they don't want to be helped." I don't believe that to be true in all cases. Many people want to come to AW to do better for themselves. Give them that chance before you start attacking. Simply put, treat others as you would wish to be treated.
Some say PA authors can't write. Have you read their book? It seems as if some are putting down PA's author's books. You have no right to judge if you haven't even read the book in question.


It takes much less energy to help than to hurt.

I'm not writing this for my benefit. I can do well enough on my own.

I did not post it to be picked apart piece by piece, nor did I post it to be vindictive. You either understand it or you don't. There is no sense to make it into something it isn't.

This posting does not pertain to the majority.


Thank you~~~

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I agree with MacAllister on this. There's really a fine line between bashing and just pointing out the facts.

The fact that some PA authors are poor spellers or bad with grammar (heck, sometimes I wonder if my own grammar's all that great) and people point that out, is not bashing.

But calling people various insulting names or insinuating they're not intelligent people because they went with PA, well, is.

I would probably be willing to say I've likely done this myself, in the past. I can't think of when I did it but then again I've been a member here for two years. A lot can happen in that amount of time that I could forget.

I think what happens is, people become frustrated by seeing the same stuff going on over and over and over and over again on the PAMB, things that don't work, being preached as though they're how professionals do things. And the finger-pointing, and the name-calling, and the extreme defensiveness, and the people who aren't mentally stable, for lack of a better term. All these things work, I think, to really frustrate seasoned writers or writers who, like myself, are still learning and trying to break into the business. This, I would imagine, is partially due to the fact it happens in cycles, over and over again. It just plain gets old, and a lot of people just can't handle it. That's one of the reasons I don't come to this part of the boards all that much anymore. I just got plain tired of talking about the same thing, over and over again.

So the point is, it's never easy being called names or having insinuations made about you, but also try to look at the situation from the viewpoint of those who've been informing people of the truth for the last several years. It's not easy to handle the same stuff again and again. Eventually, people get frustrated.

It's just the way people are.

<<Dips big toe intothe water>>

Item 1. Do we attack PA Authors? I'd have to say that we do, but not with some hostile malicious intent and we don't attack all of them, just the rabid vehement Kool-aide swillng, willing propogators of misinformation. That sub phylum of PA author is attacked here. But not in a hideous personally abusive manner; their posts are lifted and planced in the PA Quotes thread and analyzed, scrutinized and put into persprctive by those in the know about publishing and those of us that have books out by legitimate publishers. It's not an attack on personality it's an attack on the misinformation being spewed as gospel on the PAMB.

I don't consider PA a legitimate Publisher and that's my opinion. I freely admit that I too enjoyed the Kool-aide and at on time considered "Shemp" a kindred spirit and a knowledgable source on everything publishing related. But, I soon discovered the mistakes I made and I paid a big price for them.

Rose, you have to realize that those of us who are over here from PA have been burned and have some strong negative feelings toward PA. I won't bore you with my story but simply state it invloloved local law enforcement and a felony harassment complaint that could have cost me my career. These are the types of people that run Publish America. Go back and read the earlier posts and see what they did to Kevin Yarborough, myself, Christine Norris and others. Then maybe you'll understand why some of us have strong negative feeliings toward that particular establishement.

I admit that I've taken a few below the belt shots at some of the more rabid PAvidians, but it's nothing I wouldn't say to them if they were posting here. Overall, AW as a whole (And pardon me everybody for painting with a large brush and speaking for the group here) does NOT want to see more people hurt by PA. AW welcomes PA authors and welcomes the free exchange of information and ideas. AW is tolerant of dissenting PA opinions.

I back up my last sentence by inviting you to reread the multiple posts of Shelagh Watkins (vist the debate thread buried here) and the illustrious Gena. and her PA book "Baring it all".

Gena posted more in one week than most of us do in a month. She was treated with dignity untiil she went on the attack, which was almost immediatly. Truth be told, some PA authors enter this forum full of piss and vinegar looking for a fight. They're abusive, disrespectful and downright hostile... but guess what? They're posts are still here. We've even hosted the illustrious HB Marcus when this thread was iin it's infancy.

Look, I'm not going to be nice to somebody that I beleive is promoting misinformation deliberatly and fostering (What I beleive) is a hurtful scam. We attack the misinformation posted by PA authors and shed light on those posts for the PA authors that lurk here and we know there are many. In fact, we also know that Vic, Moe and all the rest of the gang read us here to find out what's going on in their own house. Do we have some nicknames such as 'Gorton's Fisherman'... 'Pipesmoking Man' etc.? Yes we do, but I see nothing wrong with that. It's harmless IMO.

There is life after PA. My PA book will be released by a real publisher along with the sequel to my PA book. Why? Because of the people here at AW, because of Jenna Glatzer, Christine Norris, Jim MacDonald, Dave Kuzminski, Ed Williams, and countless other AW members that served as mentors, critics and role models. There's more relative constructive information withing this forum than will ever be found at Publish America. You'll never see tips on how to make a lollipop tree or a bookmarks here unless you make a bet with Uncle Jim .

The bottom line is this, agaim IMO, we do attack the ideas put forth by PA Authors and sometimes have a little fun at the same time, but the goal has always been to help PA authors and dispell the mythos put out by PA.

Well, I stuck my toe in the water and then did a belly flop, sorry this post is so long winded.

Afinerosesheis said:

I recently posted a thread in here that took a lot of heat. Many misunderstood my intent. I apologize for my part in this.

....

I did not post it to be picked apart piece by piece, nor did I post it to be vindictive. You either understand it or you don't. There is no sense to make it into something it isn't.

This posting does not pertain to the majority.

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Oh, dear - where to begin?

First, thank you Mac, for stating things so clearly earlier.

Second, Mel/Rose, if you feel people don't understand your posts - and I believe a far higher level of comprehension exists out there than you give credit for - doesn't that say something about how you are communicating?

To quote Schiller: Gegen Dummheit streben selbst die Götter vergebens!

Afinerosesheis said:

Uh Sorry, I don't know German.

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Roughly, "Even the Gods struggle in vain against stupidity."

Oh! I'm gonna steal that.