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How long is too long for a novel? How short is too short? This thing I'm working on is beginning to look like 600 pages. Maybe after revisions I can boil it down to 500.
Also... I'm writing in MS Word. Can I safely assume that a "word" page is roughly equivalent to a published book-page?
Also... I'm writing in MS Word. Can I safely assume that a "word" page is roughly equivalent to a published book-page?
Mistook, when it comes to pages you'll also want to look at word count.
Here's a link that might help you out, from some board members here: Word Count
Here's a link that might help you out, from some board members here: Word Count
Given that page count depends on font, size, spacing and whether its US or UK A4, best to stick with wordcount.
Cleo, look up the websites of a couple publishers who put out books like the ones you are writing. If they have submission guidelines, check out their recommended word lengths.
That should give you a general idea.
That should give you a general idea.
length
Depending on font and margins, and on genre,600 pages isn't unreasonable for a number of publishers.
But how short or how long always depends on what a paerticular publisher wants for a particular line of books.
Depending on font and margins, and on genre,600 pages isn't unreasonable for a number of publishers.
But how short or how long always depends on what a paerticular publisher wants for a particular line of books.
In Word you can do a word count. It's not precise but at least gives you an idea. Better yet, use the non-space character count, divide that by 6.
Your novel should fall between 50,000 to 120,000 words (for a first novel anyway). The longer your work, the harder it is to sell to a prospective publisher.
Your novel should fall between 50,000 to 120,000 words (for a first novel anyway). The longer your work, the harder it is to sell to a prospective publisher.
Maestro, a slightly more accurate wordcount is to add the character count and the word count together, then divide by six. Then you'll be counting spaces, too.
Speaking roughly, of course.
Speaking roughly, of course.
Word has a couple of options:
Words
Characters (no spaces)
Characters (with spaces)
The link I posted above already lists a couple different ways to calculate an accuarate count using these three options.
Words
Characters (no spaces)
Characters (with spaces)
The link I posted above already lists a couple different ways to calculate an accuarate count using these three options.
word count
I always prefer to work based on an estimate of words per page. It's so much easier than fiddling about trying to get a "proper" count out of a word processor.
The way I did it: take a sample of your writing, a few thousand words, and copy and paste it into a new document. Format it as you would a normal manuscript (e.g., Courier New, 11pt, double space, 3cm margins, 3cm first-line indent on A4 for me). Then join everything together into a single paragraph. Once you've done that, delete everything on the last page. Now use the word processor's count to get the actual number of words (or use the character count and divide by 6 as suggested above, if you feel this is better). Divide by the number of full pages you have, and that's your number of words per page. For me, it's 275. From this point on, work in terms of complete pages.
The advantage to this approach is it takes into account the volume of whitespace in your manuscript, as well as the number of words, which helps estimate the eventual length of your book. The number of pages in the book is the important thing, to everyone concerned, but to work it out, you'll need to know both your number of words per page and the same figure for a book printed in the style yours will be. I've looked at a few standard paperback books, and most have between 300 and 400 words per page, so will have slightly fewer pages than you have manuscript pages (assuming your format is similar to mine; if you use Times New Roman as your font, for example, you may get substantially more words per page than me)
I always prefer to work based on an estimate of words per page. It's so much easier than fiddling about trying to get a "proper" count out of a word processor.
The way I did it: take a sample of your writing, a few thousand words, and copy and paste it into a new document. Format it as you would a normal manuscript (e.g., Courier New, 11pt, double space, 3cm margins, 3cm first-line indent on A4 for me). Then join everything together into a single paragraph. Once you've done that, delete everything on the last page. Now use the word processor's count to get the actual number of words (or use the character count and divide by 6 as suggested above, if you feel this is better). Divide by the number of full pages you have, and that's your number of words per page. For me, it's 275. From this point on, work in terms of complete pages.
The advantage to this approach is it takes into account the volume of whitespace in your manuscript, as well as the number of words, which helps estimate the eventual length of your book. The number of pages in the book is the important thing, to everyone concerned, but to work it out, you'll need to know both your number of words per page and the same figure for a book printed in the style yours will be. I've looked at a few standard paperback books, and most have between 300 and 400 words per page, so will have slightly fewer pages than you have manuscript pages (assuming your format is similar to mine; if you use Times New Roman as your font, for example, you may get substantially more words per page than me)
Re: word count
Some editors use the 250 words per page as a standard, as long as the ms. is formatted correctly (courier 12, double spaced, etc.)
Some editors use the 250 words per page as a standard, as long as the ms. is formatted correctly (courier 12, double spaced, etc.)
word count
One inch margins all around, Courier 12, double-spaced, is 250 words, no matter what your word processor tells you. From the SFWA website www.sfwa.org/writing/wordcount.htm
In a novel length manuscript, you just have to be reasonably close on word count, but it makes it a heck of a lot easier on copyeditor, and many regular editors, if you use the 250 words per page rule.
As they say, "Ink is cheap, paper is expensive."
Editors care about word count in manuscripts, but only because it's easier than trying to explain page count with all teh variables. If all writers used the same font and the same margins, page count would be the easiest way.
What publishers care about is how many pages the published novel will be. It takes a lot of money to buy that paper, so what they really want is word count done in such a way they can tell at a glance how much paper they'll have to buy to actually publish the novel.
One inch margins all around, Courier 12, double-spaced, is 250 words, no matter what your word processor tells you. From the SFWA website www.sfwa.org/writing/wordcount.htm
In a novel length manuscript, you just have to be reasonably close on word count, but it makes it a heck of a lot easier on copyeditor, and many regular editors, if you use the 250 words per page rule.
As they say, "Ink is cheap, paper is expensive."
Editors care about word count in manuscripts, but only because it's easier than trying to explain page count with all teh variables. If all writers used the same font and the same margins, page count would be the easiest way.
What publishers care about is how many pages the published novel will be. It takes a lot of money to buy that paper, so what they really want is word count done in such a way they can tell at a glance how much paper they'll have to buy to actually publish the novel.
Re: word count
I use 1-inch margins and 12-point courier. My manuscript has 163 pages in that format, which would be 40,750 words according to the 250 words per page method. However, the word count according to my word processor is a little less than 34,000. Which one should I use?
I use 1-inch margins and 12-point courier. My manuscript has 163 pages in that format, which would be 40,750 words according to the 250 words per page method. However, the word count according to my word processor is a little less than 34,000. Which one should I use?
Re: word count
"Use the answer that best suits your needs at the moment."
That's kinda vague. 40,000 would obviously suit my needs better, but do editors prefer that?
"Use the answer that best suits your needs at the moment."
That's kinda vague. 40,000 would obviously suit my needs better, but do editors prefer that?
Re: word count
Depends on the editor. Check their sub. requirements and see if they say anything about how they would like you do calculate word count, or if a "lower" count would suit you there better. (Editor is known for printing shorter work, longer, etc..)
Depends on the editor. Check their sub. requirements and see if they say anything about how they would like you do calculate word count, or if a "lower" count would suit you there better. (Editor is known for printing shorter work, longer, etc..)
Re: word count
I think what HConn meant was kind of...
If the editor expects something 60K and your actually word count is only 55K, it might be good to "up it" by using the 250 word/page method -- it's going to give you more words... and vice versa.
Or something like that.
I think what HConn meant was kind of...
If the editor expects something 60K and your actually word count is only 55K, it might be good to "up it" by using the 250 word/page method -- it's going to give you more words... and vice versa.
Or something like that.
Re: word count
There are a lot of ways to calculate word counts. Do all of them. Each only takes a minute. Then use the result that suits your needs.
Choose the highest result, the lowest result, whatever. It's not cheating, exactly....
There are a lot of ways to calculate word counts. Do all of them. Each only takes a minute. Then use the result that suits your needs.
Choose the highest result, the lowest result, whatever. It's not cheating, exactly....
Greetings. I'm new to this forum and have a question about word count. Till I read this thread yesterday, I thought for sure I had a 69,000 word novel. I guess I'm the last guy on the block to realize that the word count in Microsoft Word is unreliable. Or at least that it's not the one you'd take as gospel to send to a prospective agent or publisher.
But the information I've read here - while informative - still leaves me somewhat confused. I get two different numbers based on how I do the calculation. If I do the word count option, here's what I get:
Pages: 129
Words: 69447
Characters (no spaces): 289,060
Characters (with spaces): 358,110
Paragraphs: 1927
Lines: 5387
Based on some of what I've seen on this forum, I'd think the actual word count is closer to 60k. (Dividing characters w/spaces by 6). But based on someone suggesting a calculation involving average characters per line – which I hand counted to be at approx. 74 based on the first ten lines - the number could be closer to 69,000.
Not sure how best to calculate this at this point. It’s crucial because I am quite near to having a final read-through by someone and then – barring any radical surgery – submitting it to a literary agent.
So two questions – what’s the length of this beast? And if it’s 60,000 words, would a publisher go for that or think it’s just too short? (It’s your standard “coming-of-age, semi-autobiographical, first person” thing.) Thanks
But the information I've read here - while informative - still leaves me somewhat confused. I get two different numbers based on how I do the calculation. If I do the word count option, here's what I get:
Pages: 129
Words: 69447
Characters (no spaces): 289,060
Characters (with spaces): 358,110
Paragraphs: 1927
Lines: 5387
Based on some of what I've seen on this forum, I'd think the actual word count is closer to 60k. (Dividing characters w/spaces by 6). But based on someone suggesting a calculation involving average characters per line – which I hand counted to be at approx. 74 based on the first ten lines - the number could be closer to 69,000.
Not sure how best to calculate this at this point. It’s crucial because I am quite near to having a final read-through by someone and then – barring any radical surgery – submitting it to a literary agent.
So two questions – what’s the length of this beast? And if it’s 60,000 words, would a publisher go for that or think it’s just too short? (It’s your standard “coming-of-age, semi-autobiographical, first person” thing.) Thanks
Pages: 129
Words: 69447
I'm just guessing, here, but you aren't using double-spaced Courier 10 with one-inch margins, are you?
Words: 69447
I'm just guessing, here, but you aren't using double-spaced Courier 10 with one-inch margins, are you?
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