White Lies and the Reader's Trust

I just read an article that argued against profanity in fiction, which IMHO is up to the individual writer. However, the author used as her example inner-city gangs, then went on to admit that taking the profanity out of their mouths was a little white lie. She further explained that this was permissible, all would be forgiven by the reader, and this appeared in a publication geared toward beginning writers.

So, is a "white lie" of this magnitude permissible? Not once did she mention violating the reader's trust, which, to my way of thinking, is what little white lies like this violate in an unacceptable way.

Just wondering what your thoughts might be.

Thanks in advance,

Mari

If there's a situation where the character would curse, they should curse. If the writer doesn't want to write it out, they should write: T-Roach cursed. "I can't go back to jail, man. I just can't."

There's nothing wrong with that. There is something definitely wrong with T-Roach swearing like Ned Flanders because the writer knows her mom is going to read the book. That kind of white lie is lame.

Personally, if I were to read a novel about street gangs that didn't have any cursing in it, I would be very suspicious. It'd be like "The Brady Bunch goes to South Central."

At the same time, I understand that there is a reticence to use profanity in literature. Maybe it's just tradition or social mores or something; I don't know. I myself swear like a dock worker all the time, but take care to avoid profanity in my own work.

I'd say it comes down to your own feeling on its necessity, balanced against the genre in which you are writing and the audience you are aiming for. If it's appropriate for the story, but inappropriate for your genre/audience, then I would take HConn's advice and write it in as description rather than dialogue.

I just read an article that argued against profanity in fiction

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I'm going to make an issue of your word choice here, because I'm feeling pedantic tonight.

What we're speaking of, here: @#%$, @#%$, g*dd*mmit, bitch, @#%$, etc., are not, strictly speaking, profane.

Or, rather, they ARE profane, but a more appropriate term would be "vulgar". Why? I'll tell you. Because "profane" is, by definition, a word from the religious lexicon. Webster's says that something that is profane is something that is "...marked by contempt or irreverence for what is sacred." I'm of the understanding that the word, itself, means "outside of the temple". It is a word with very strict religious denotations and connotations.

However, "vulgar" has no such religious affiliation or connotations. It simply means "Crudely indecent", base, common.

And since what we're referring to, here, is the language specifically used by young urbarn males in a gang setting, the MOST ACCURATE word would be "vulgar" or "vulgarity", because they are not necessarily showing contempt for the sacred (opinions on using the Lord's name in vain left to the side for convenience sake.)

***

That being said, I agree with HConn. "T-Roach cursed," is acceptable...but too much of that and people will start smelling a rat. They have to. Even when I was a Christian, and much more conservative about that sort of thing, when I came across something like "Jerry Falwell cursed," in a book, I couldn't help thinking: "Well, that's kinda stupid..." It looked as if the writer was trying to have it both ways -- 'I want to appear edgy and realistic without actually having to sully my good name, and get dirty looks at the next church luncheon.'

If you (editorial "you") can't handle writing about people that use "naughty" language, then maybe you should stick to children's books, YA Novels and fiction aimed at the Ladies Aid Society.

Someone else gave this advice on a site somewhere about writing erotica (no, I don't write erotica or read it usually, but found this through another message board that I post on under another name) I think the site was called literotica.org. They said--and I fully agree with this--either swear or don't swear. The choice is yours, but don't replace it with stupid #$@*& signs or try to use euphemisms like "oh gosh darn it heck fiddlesticks, I have to tinkle now, you doodyhead". Stuff like that just takes you out of the story. If you are that opposed to swearing, then don't swear, but don't replace them either; just flat out avoid it completely.

I happen to use a great deal of profanity in my stories and if it offends people, too bad! I hate politically correct crap anyway and generally don't care about sensitivities. I generally make it pretty clear to people that if they are overly sensitive, easily disturbed, or easily offended then they should not read my stuff anyway.

And the fact of the matter is that people swear. They swear in reality, so it would stand to reason that characters should be able to swear freely in books and movies as well. Granted, an elemntary school teacher swearing profusely in front of her (most of the elementary school teachers I've known of were female) would be very unlikely, to say the least, but aside from that, everyone swears at least some of the time, whether cops, crooks, street thugs, small town hicks, docters, lawyers, children, and whoever else. Swearing is a part of our vocabulary and shouldn't be censored just because a few people find such words offensive. They are only words, after all,and words a lot of people like to use. Unless you're an insanely religious puritan, chances are you've probably uttered a few profanities in your life. Fiction should at least somewhat reflect reality to the point where it immerses you in that reality of the story for at least the time you are reading it. People swear in reality, and therefore should be allowed to swear in fiction as well.

I liked Mark Twains approach to this the best. He had some of the most flowery descriptions for when a person was swearing. Rather than concentrate on the words, he would often concentrate on the reactions of the listeners.

Anyone who agrues against profanity in fiction is attempting to deprive you of the right that so many fought so hard for, especialy in this free country of the U.S.A.

To print in a story that which was once unprintable.

evenaharris is to be complimented on making a fine, but correct distinction between profanity and vulgarity. However I'm sure the original author meant both.

Point to be noted. The last time I checked, which was several years ago, Stephen King was earning $50 million a year. I'm sure it is more than that now. While I won't say he peppers his novels with profanity and vulgarity, he does not hesitate to use it where it is appropriate.

Mark Twain wrote during a period in our history when you could go to jail for printing "Damn" and "hell."

Do you really want to go back to that?

On the other hand every word in a story needs to be justified. This includes vulgarity and profanity. If it is offensive to a large group of the public, it needs to be examined with care.

My current WIP is an epic fairy tale fantasy that deals with many issues including violence, betrayl, sex, rape, murder, the politics of monarchies, etc.

Yet in the entire novel I only have one group of young punks who would use vulgarity, and this is in the first few chapters. Early enough to set the tone for the novel. Yet it would misrepresent the novel because it would never recur. Therefore I made the decision not to include it.

If I ever write about the streets I was raised upon, I will definately use the F word. However I will not use it in the novel as often as everyone on the street used it because it would grow repititious and boring.

When it comes to cursing, swearing, profanity, and vulgarity, the writer should look to what is appropriate to themself, their audience, and the subject.

When you write you should make decisions. Some of those decisions are, Why you are writing something, what you are writing, to whom you are writing it, how you are writing it, and what you intend to accomplish by writing it.

Thanks so much for your replies. As for me, when I read this article, I was--in a word--flabbergasted. Hence the question. I don't put any limits on my writing, none whatsoever. My characters are free to do whatever they want, whether I personally like it or not.

The most notable omission in this article was absence of any reference to the reader's trust. As if the concept doesn't exist or isn't relevant to fiction. I wonder now if the editor wasn't trying to promote some personal political agenda.

I will say, in all honesty, that I don't care if my work offends every other person on earth. Maybe they need to be offended. Reality is very offensive in many respects. Then again, I don't write for anyone else, I write for me. I write because I love to write--period. The drive wakes me in the middle of the night, the excitement of an unexpected plot twist or a tight resolution to a story with more loose ends than a fistful of cooked spaghetti is unparalleled to me. The only question I felt I ever needed to answer in regards to writing was this: If I'm never published, will I ever stop writing?

You do know my answer there, right? LOL

Mari

I remember reading "He cursed" more often in YA novels. I can't remember an adult novel where such a phrase was used (then again, if I have read one, that means it worked...) but I think cursing reveals a lot about character.

One instance where it didn't work for me was in King's _It_ and the little boy in the beginning was cursing up a storm.

When you write ya novels you are writing for two sets of people. The young person who is going to read it, and the parent, grand parent, or guardian who believes they should attempt to monitor and control what the "child" has access to.

The sad part is that you cannot write openly about the problems young people face. If you did you would be in a world of trouble from those who cannot remember being younger than 30 and have no meaningful contact with youth.

Fortunately the kids understand and go along with the charade. They forgive you, and usually forgive their guardians for being more naive than they are. And when their guardians arn't looking they go read the adult literature.

Which is why I chose to write my fairy tale fantasy as an adult novel. I'd rather deal with real issues head on.

I just wrote a chapter involving a gang scene. I was able to pull it off (I think) without a curse word but other street talk made up for it. I'm not against cursing in writing because I also agree if the character would curse in real life, they should curse in the book. But it is my humble amateur opinion that the more the cursing, the less the effect.

Since my son is 17 years old, i simply listened to his conversations with his friends, (some less desirable than others), and found they still sounded gangish around me even though they didn't necessarily cuss. Thats how I wrote it.

rt

In my book, I have to use the C word. I agonized over it, took it out of my earlier draft, then decided to put it back in the final draft. The reason: I felt that it had to be there. The spoke for the characters and it was relevant to the story. And I realized as a writer you do need to make your scene the best you can, be true to your character and story. I'm sorry if someone finds the word objectable, but then again, I'm not writing for YA or kids.

profanity

Whether or not to use profanity and vulgarity is strictly up to the writer, and whether or not to read it is strictly up to the reader.

But saying it's necessary is nonsense. If it were necessary to use profanity or vulgarity to create good, honest, memorable, lasting fiction, we'd have to erase 98% or the writers who ever lived.

Such things being "unprintable" did not stop centuries of writers from producing fiction that was as good, and usually far, far better, than anything out there today.

And there are many writers today who create wonderful, realistic fiction without using either profanity or vulgarity.

It should be the writer's and reader's choice always, but the argument that it's necessary is a foolish one that dismisses so much fiction that it's silly even on the surface.

The big problem I see with profanity and vulgarity is that far too often, particularly in the hands of a new writer, it isn't a tool, it's a crutch.

Some of the best and most effective writing courses I've ever seen allow no vulgarity at all. Not even extremely timid words such as "damn" or "hell." Not even "shoot" or "Shucks."

If a writer can learn to write well and effectively without such words, they can then write far better when they do use them. The words are no longer critches, but tools.

Realism is a good thing, but fiction, and particularly dialogue, isn't about realism. "But that's how people really talk" is the argument of the amateur who almost certainly isn't widely published, or published at all. Profanity and vulgarity should be tools, not crutches.

I'm not at all against using good, sharp tools, but far too many use vulgarity like a dull axe on hard wood, and just come across as bad writers.

rambles on YA books, profanity, and vulgarity

i belive the term 'profanity" is used for swearing because so many curses are rooted in religion.
in fact, there are relatively few words describing cursing that exclude the religious aspect.

"swearing" presuemably refers to oaths, a religious concept.

and "curses" are obviously religious in nature.

as for profanity in writing, i find that a book littered with profanity is not terribly effective and somewhat unpleasant.

in my opinion, dialogue is not real speech. perhaps some profanity must be kept for it to sound real, but dialogue should be to the point. just as we drastically reduce the numbers "um"s, "er"s, "like"s, and "you know"s, we should also trim profanity that is commonplace in the speakers speech.

therefore, I would use profanity only for characters who are genuinely angry, and sparingly.

p.s

i've always wondered about "YA" books. how old are "young adults"? why are they their own market? i've been reading adult fiction in preference to YA since i was 10 or so.

now, at 14, i'm writing a book i wouldn't consider YA, although as yet it has no inappropriate content. (probably because of the characters. angels don't swear, obviously, and demons don't either. what would be the point? you'll probably never hear the phrase "he swears like an angel")

mostly i consider it adult fiction because it's hopefully interesting to adults, and not as cheerful as most YA fiction.

what mkaes people think teenagers want cheerful books?

Re: rambles on YA books, profanity, and vulgarity

I really can't agree, James. There are times when it IS necessary to use profanity -- you can argue until the cow comes home that good fiction can be done without using a single cuss word, even when you're writing about a gangster in the ghetto. Sure you can argue about the definition of "necessary." But shouldn't we all aim at writing the truth? A gang member in Brooklyn IS going to use profanity in his speech, and if you avoid it, or say things like "he cursed," you're avoiding the truth and for what reason?

As a writer we can't limit ourselves and self-censor. It's ALWAYS a choice. Gratuitous anything is not good (sex, violence, language) but if your story is about inner city ghetto thuds, you should write how they talk. Anything else you're just being dishonest. And we should never encourage writers to be dishonest.

Re: rambles on YA books, profanity, and vulgarity

The best example I can think of is the movie the Exorcist, when Linda Blair's character says the infamous "Your mother ... ... in hell" line. Change it in any way and it loses all its impact.

Re: rambles on YA books, profanity, and vulgarity

I went to workshop once where the instructor talked about those four letter no no words--the most effective thing was that during the entire workshop he never used a single swear word until the very end--then he said something along the lines of and I f'n well mean it.

Everyone was shocked. Heads came up, and eyes went wide.

His point--think of how effective that one instance was when using it in your writing.

Overuse dulls the edge of a powerful word. Choose carefully where you want those powerful words to be.

Shawn

Re: rambles on YA books, profanity, and vulgarity

How true, Shawn. Great example. In literature, it should be like a slap in the face. Slap too often and the face becomes numb.

Re: rambles on YA books, profanity, and vulgarity

I think cursing is a critically important tool. How and when characters curse, and to what extent - tells a great deal about their personalities. I mean, it's not like belching or going to the bathroom, which are usually left out of stories. Cursing is volitional language. To pretend it doesn't exist is to deprive readers of a whole dimension.

For instance, I can always tell when I'm talking to a guy who's been to prison by two things. They always have at least one colorless tattoo, and they always curse up a storm in casual conversation with lots of "f**k" and "s**t". Not that they're angry... they could be talking about a lovely walk through the park, it's just the way they talk.

Some people only curse when they've accidentally hammered their thumb while trying to pound a nail.

Teenagers curse more than adults, when no adults are around.

The absence of cursing is also important. A devoutly religious person will usually say "shoot" and "dang" etc. And sometimes the piety this transmits is more offensive than the curse words.

Two old friends getting drunk will curse more than either one would when sober and at work.

Re: rambles on YA books, profanity, and vulgarity

Depends once again on what you are writing and the effect you want to achieve.

If you are writing about some people who use the f word to the point where it is dull and meaningless and you use the word often enough in your story to make it dull and meaningless, then you have achieved the effect consistent with the story.

Part of the discussion here has been about inner city gangs, yet I have seen church groups where as soon as they were "alone with just us God fearing folk together" the profanity flowed just as fluently as any inner city gang memger.

Each novel needs to be consistent within itself, and its overall effect should be given as much consideration as its character, conflict, themes, etc.

The spice of fiction

I think of vulgarities as seasoning. Unsalted food is bland, but when over-peppered it's inedible, and fiction deserves the same restraining impulse - according to taste.

In creating the simulacrum of real dialogue rather than reproducing it, I tend to treat 'bad' language in the same way as colloquial or heavily-accented speech. That is, using it briefly when introducing characters to establish their normal mode of speaking (if it serves a purpose), then dropping it before it gets boring or irritating; and only re-using it when truly necessary.

<a href="http://crustyworld.blogspot.com" target="_new">crustyworld.blogspot.com</a>

Re: rambles on YA books, profanity, and vulgarity

i've always wondered about "YA" books. how old are "young adults"? why are they their own market? i've been reading adult fiction in preference to YA since i was 10 or so

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If I remember correctly, when I borrowed a copy of the Children's Market...
Middle Grade is from the ages of 8-11(perhaps 12) and YA is 12-16 or so.

Re: rambles on YA books, profanity, and vulgarity

I think R.L.Stine is "young adult" in that even a lot of adults, including myself, enjoy his stories, and so do very young children. Yet Stine somehow manages to bypass all the criticisms parents and teachers tend to throw at "that kind of literature."


It was interesting to me that his first adult novel, Superstitions, was a flop because in spite of generous helpings of the F word it was still a YA novel. Proof to me that story, subject, and concept, are what seperates childrens literature from adult literature, not language.

I feel the issue of how much profanity works in a story depends on the author's voice and the target audience.

If Ned Flanders wrote a novel peppered with the "F" word, it would feel unnatural and uncomfortable. It would not be right for his story. It would be much more effect for Ned to use HConn's suggestion and say "he cursed", or something similar.

Likewise, if I write a story about inner-city gang violence for my grandmother's church choir, they are not going to read it if the dialogue is full of curse words. Fiction is a powerful tool for social change. If the goal of my story was to get my grandmother's church choir more involved in inner-city issues, it would defeat my purpose to put a barrier between the reader and the story.

On the other hand, if the goal of my story is to portray a hyper-realistic vision of gang life, I would be insulting my readers to leave out vulgar words.

Many have already pointed out that profanity looses its effect with repetition. I think this is as true for the speaker as it is for the listener. There are people that casually uses the "F" word (or another curse word) in every other sentence. They often don't even realize they are doing it. It's habit.

I'm curious, if a word has lost all power, even to the speaker, is it a violation of the character to leave the word out of their dialogue? I tend to think it is not, if all the characters in the story have the same non-reaction to the word. But it would be a violation, if the character is a fish out of water.

Jen

Cursing, Darn it

Two master rules:

1) Every word must advance the plot, reveal character, or support the theme.

2) If it's wrong and it works, it isn't wrong.

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I've used vulgarity, profanity, and obscenity in my works from time to time, as I thought necessary.

See, for example, <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0812568591/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/" target=_new">Tiger Cruise</A> and <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1931013098/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/" target="_new">What Do You Do With a Drunken Sailor</A> (both by me writing as "Douglas Morgan"). In the first, a techothriller, the level, kind, and freqency, varies by the characters' social class, education, and the situation. The second is a scholarly non-fiction work, where the subject demands the language.

Other novels have had more or less, but less more than more, and then often quite mild.

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This calls to mind the joke about the dirtiest limerick in the world:

A man comes home from a night out playing poker with the guys, laughing his ass off.

"What's up?" his wife asks.

"I just heard the funniest limerick in the world," the guy says.

"So, tell me," his wife says.

"I'm sorry," he says, "but I can't tell you. It's just too dirty."

"Look," his wife says, "I know all those words. I use most of 'em myself, and I've done quite a few of them too, if you know what I mean. Tell me the limerick."

"No," the guy says, "It's just too filthy."

"Okay," his wife says, "tell you what. Just leave out the bad words and I'll fill it in for myself."

"Okay," the guy says:

Blank blank blank blank blank blank blank blank
Blank blank blank blank blank blank blank blank.
Blank blank blank blank blank
Blank blank blank blank blank
Blank blank blank blank blank blank blank fnck."

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For an example of a novel that uses unrelenting vulgarity, crudity, profanity, and obscenity to reveal character, advance the plot, and support the theme: <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0380692600/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/" target="_new">No Bugles, No Drums</A> by Charles Durden.

If you haven't read it, you ought to.