I need help understanding this grammar

dahabnz said:

Hello

I keep making the same grammatical errors because I don’t really understand the rules/logic behind them. They come in three flavours and I have put examples below. If anyone can confirm that how I write the sentence is wrong, and why, it would be much appreciated.

1) I keep putting the comma before the ‘and’ because what came after it read as a clause then full sentence.

My incorrect version
A small sail was raised[,] and away from the commotion of people[,] the boat passed out of the harbour and sailed into the night.

I though this was correct, because the sentence could be broken down as - A small sail was raised. Away from the commotion of people[,] the boat passed out of the harbour and sailed into the night.

Correct version
A small sail was raised and[,] away from the commotion of people[,]the boat passed out of the harbour and sailed into the night.

Also correct:

A small sail was raised[,] and[,]away from the commotion of people[,]the boat passed out of the harbour and sailed into the night.

Note, "A small sail was raised" is a short clause, so you don't need to set the conjunction "and" with a comma.


2) I am not sure why a comma goes before the ‘then’

My incorrect version
The bandit raised his sword then fell to an arrow from the battlement.

Correct version
The bandit raised his sword[,] then fell to an arrow from the battlement.

Tricky one. The "correct version" is strictly speaking not correct, but still it is accepted by many fiction writers as correct. In truth, there should be an "and" before the adverb "then".

My version: The bandit raised his sword; then an arrow from the battlement felled him.

Yours reads better and is faster-paced.



3)I thought a comma had to separate and opening clause from a pronoun.

My incorrect version
By late afternoon[,] he had finished sharpening the swords and by sunset[,] he stood sweeping the shopfront as shadows filled the streets.

Correct version
By late afternoon he had finished sharpening the swords[,] and by sunset he stood sweeping the shopfront as shadows filled the streets.

Yours is actually the correct one, but the "correct version" is more common and reads better.

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Answers in blue.

Hi there!

English is my second language so I had some of these rules drummed into me at school. To answer your questions:

1) I keep putting the comma before the ‘and’ because what came after it read as a clause then full sentence.

A comma is not always needed. Normally if you have a related clause you don't need a comma before the conjunction:

He put the toys away and took the bowl back to the kitchen.


Sometimes, we prefer a comma because the "and" separates two difficult clauses:

He put the toys away, and she took the bowl back to the kitchen.

In your incorrect version:

A small sail was raised[,] and away from the commotion of people[,] the boat passed out of the harbour and sailed into the night.

I though this was correct, because the sentence could be broken down as - A small sail was raised. Away from the commotion of people[,] the boat passed out of the harbour and sailed into the night.

You should either use a semicolon or full stop after "raised":

A small sail was raised; away from the commotion of people, the boat ...


The commas may indicate that the clause is independent. Just imagine taking the "and away from the commotion of people" out and you can see that the sentence: "A small sail was raised, the boat passed out of the harbour..." is grammatically wrong.

Correct version
A small sail was raised and[,] away from the commotion of people[,]the boat passed out of the harbour and sailed into the night.

In this case, if you take away "away from the commotion of people," the sentence "A small sail was raised and the boat passed out of the harbour..." is grammatically correct.



2) I am not sure why a comma goes before the ‘then’

My incorrect version
The bandit raised his sword then fell to an arrow from the battlement.

Correct version
The bandit raised his sword[,] then fell to an arrow from the battlement.

This one is tricky and people may argue about this. But in this case "then" is not really a conjunction -- it's an adverb -- so your sentence doesn't make sense grammatically. In the second case, I don't know what it is called but it's s series of action separated by commas. If you take away the "then" it will still work grammatically, I think:

The bandit raised his sword, fell to an arrow from the battlement.

Some may argue that it really should be "and then" instead of just "then" since "then" is an adverb and not a conjunction. I won't go into that debate here.



3)I thought a comma had to separate and opening clause from a pronoun.

My incorrect version
By late afternoon[,] he had finished sharpening the swords and by sunset[,] he stood sweeping the shopfront as shadows filled the streets.

Correct version
By late afternoon he had finished sharpening the swords[,] and by sunset he stood sweeping the shopfront as shadows filled the streets.


I was taught so, too, but it seems like it's not required in modern writing these days. Either way, you need the comma before "and" because there are two sentences. I can see if you add the commas, there may just be too many, but personally I would favor this one:

By late afternoon, he had finished sharpening the swords, and by sunset, he stood sweeping the shopfront as shadows filled the streets.

To make things even more confusing, lets not forget that although there are plenty of instances where a comma is grammatically correct and absolutely must be used, there are also times when it’s simply a matter of style. Editors will argue more over where a comma should be employed than they will anything else.

Comma

The bandit raised his sword[,] then fell to an arrow from the battlement.

You left out the conjunction. It should be: The bandit raised his sword, AND then fell to an arrow from the battlement.

I find comma usage one of the hardest things to master. There are so many different roles that commas can play. Each one alone is fairly easy to understand, but when several of them occur in the same sentence, you end up with commas all over the place. I know part of the answer is that some commas are more important than others. When they conflict with one another, the less important ones should be omitted. Figuring out which ones to omit is often difficult, though.

My personal rule of thumb when things get confusing is to back up and rewrite the whole sentence, possibly breaking it up into multiple sentences. That isn't always the solution, of course, but it often helps. (I do tend to write long, involved sentences in first draft.) I think your first and third examples could benefit from that.

dahabnz said:

My incorrect version
A small sail was raised[,] and away from the commotion of people[,] the boat passed out of the harbour and sailed into the night.

Correct version
A small sail was raised and[,] away from the commotion of people[,]the boat passed out of the harbour and sailed into the night.

Try
A small sail was raised. Away from the commotion of people, the boat passed out of the harbour and sailed into the night.

My incorrect version
The bandit raised his sword then fell to an arrow from the battlement.

Correct version
The bandit raised his sword[,] then fell to an arrow from the battlement.

Try
The bandit raised his sword just before falling to an arrow from the battlement.

My incorrect version
By late afternoon[,] he had finished sharpening the swords and by sunset[,] he stood sweeping the shopfront as shadows filled the streets.

Correct version
By late afternoon he had finished sharpening the swords[,] and by sunset he stood sweeping the shopfront as shadows filled the streets.

Try
He finished sharpening the swords late in the afternoon. By sunset, he stood sweeping the shopfront as shadows filled the streets.

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I find 'By <time>, <event> happened' to be a somewhat awkward construction. Using it once is OK. Using it twice, so close together, sounds clunky. That's not a grammar issue, of course, but it is a good example of awkward comma usage serving to point out a deeper problem.